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i was playing against this reanimator deck on cockatrice today. this guy played reanimator game one, which he won. then game two, i bring in jate and he lets it all resolve. i then see him play delver and young pyro and deathrite shaman. what did he do.
Does anyone know of an article/forum regarding Daze? I'm trying to understand when is it appropriate to side it out and all.
You could run a transformation sideboard, I've looked at it in the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
If you drop the 7 big creatures and Exhume and Animate Dead, you have 12 open slots to bring in a Grixis Delver board. Careful Study and Entomb are lackluster but serve to feed Young Pyromancer and fuel Deathrite, and a set of Reanimated either recur their own cheap dudes or target your graveyard for value.
Problem was it gets all-or-nothing fast. You end up having to write off ever winning against decks that prey on greed like Stompy and D&T, but you can fake out wins against the fair decks like Delvers and the like.
Hello guys.
A few pages back someone asked about the potential of Winds of Rebuke but it seems it got overlooked. I would like to ask again if someone has tried and have experience using this card in the sideboard as a replacement for Echoing Truth? Seems like a decent card for the deck, you can even maindeck it if your meta has too much hate against Reanimator. Or is the utility attached to Echoing Truth still better?
Also another card in this line got recently previewed in Ixalan: Perilous Voyage. Same mana cost with truth and rebuke with almost same bounce effect but with different extra effect: you scry 2 if the bounced permanent has 2 or less mana cost. What do you guys think?
Putting two unknown cards in the bin is not the ideal scenario, you had to know first which those cards are and that's not possible all the time. Perilous Voyage looks fine but since Echoing Truth is mainly used against LofV, you won't be able to scry most of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by jethstriker
I will still stick to the more powerful Echoing Truth since it bounces multiple copies of [substitute with any copy of the annoying permanent that is not letting you go off].
What are your questions?Quote:
Originally Posted by PuppyWuppy
Do you still have the green splash or back to OG colors?
Daze most often is the thing that gets sided out first after you know what your opponent is on. It's a weak card against most opponents, but it's universally balanced, so it performs against unknown opponents game 1. Once you have an idea what they're doing or going to do against you, you have more potent cards for that matchup.
Yeah I brought Winds just in case someone saw something in it that I didn't but I wouldn't play it unless you're looking for a fun-of. Leave that for when you mastered the deck only and are looking for spice.Quote:
Originally Posted by jethstriker
Etruth is better than this new spell. It's best target is probably Leyline of the void, which can come in multiple copies and is 4 mana. It also works well on double Chalice on 1, the "bounce all" clause is quite game-changing sometimes while scry is okay at best (don't forget we are already playing blue and have access to brainstorm/ponder/preordain).
The easy answer as to when to side out daze is "always" unless both conditions for keeping it are met: 1-You do not have other good cards to side in , 2-You are on the play.Quote:
Originally Posted by PuppyWuppy
I currently am running just blue black.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
I was wondering when Daze is usually sided out. I know that it's usually bad on the draw and maybe, depending on the match up, should be played in the main during the play. Since it's very situational when Daze should be sided out I was wondering if there was any articles written about it, but I after quite a few testing I think I got it figured it out. :wink:
It's not so situational when it gets sided out, it's usually very special circumstances when it gets left in.Quote:
Originally Posted by PuppyWuppy
Cpt-Qc summarized it as best as I could. With a well build sideboard, any card should be better against a known opponent than Daze, so it's practically always sided out.
I was thinking about the fact that we sideboard dazes out so much that I dropped them off my list completely. I took stryfo's plan and went -3 daze +2 misdirection +1 land.
I played a 5 rounder with this
3 sea
1 trop
1 bayou
2 swamp
1 island
9 fetches
4 fow
2 misdirection
4 bs
3 ponder
4 careful
4 entomb
2 thoughtseize
2 show and tell
4 reani
4 exhume
2 a. Dead
3 gris
1 elesh
1 iona
1 tyrant
1 grave titan
1 hapless researcher
1 pithing needle
Sb:
3 decay
2 echoing truth
1 needle
1 keranos
1 swan song
1 duress
2 seize
2 show and tell
1 teferis realn
1 massacre
R1 vs sneak and show.
G1 he goes off t2 with fow back up. I have a iona to show but i can't get emrakul out.
G2 all my discard kills his hand, i eventually go off like t5
G3 he goes to 5, i go off t3 with duress and fow back up
R2 grixis control
Both games are the same. I mull to oblivion, my cantrips do nothing and he has the nut draws. But well, it happens.
R3 elves
G1 iona t2, fow shaman t1
G2 i keep a one lander with ponderino but can't find more
G3 norn t2
R4 uw stoneblade
G1 is marathonic. My tyrant gets plowed and my titan hits once before getting plowed too. He has karakas since t2, and i eventually find my MD copy of needle and gris brings both elesh and iona.
G2 i have a t2 keranos which ignores his containment priest :)
R5 Death and taxes
G1 he has karakas since t1. I have a t2 gris, which doesn't get the best draws but finds enough gas for a t3 titan with protection against his plows. I think i navigate the board decently, he is on just 1 land and a vial, so when i find my needle i go for vial instead of karakas, while getting a hit with titan. Eventually he finds lands, but he taps out to cast a mirran crusader, i eot entomb, animate dead elesh norn and alpha strike for the win.
G2 i'm maybe a bit too scared of karakas so i go for a t2 titan instead of a griselbrand. He doesn't have karakas but his army is getting bigger and my titan gets overpowered. He taps his nowfound karakas for a sfm, i show and tell with elesh in hand, but he has containment priest, which means my SnT just cheated in his battterskull. I decay his priest, bin elesh, and try to exhume it, he had a macabre waiting :(
No time for g3, but we play it out just for fun. He doesn't draws his karakas, i have an active keranos and a g titan seals the deal.
So overall a 4-1, 3-1-1 in the scorecards. Misdirection i used it only once as a semi-fow and did the trick, dazes weren't missed. DNT and karakas MUs felt much better with a md pithing needle. A card that i would really like to try is strategic planning against the grixis/4c control that are getting more popular each day. In those MUs you udually have some time and strategic planning could work as pseudo careful study that wouldn't generate card disadvantage.
Interesting idea. With all the blue DRS decks running around games keep going longer and longer so Daze might not be where we want to be anymore.
Thoughts on Unmask rather than Misdirection? Might be useful in more situations even if it doesn't lead to the blow outs Misdirection does.
EDIT: Other possible advantages to dropping Daze:
- MD doesn't stunt mana development
- Without Daze you're under less pressure to fetch Underground Sea on turn one, which can get wasted and leave you unable to cast Exhume on turn two.
I haven't gotten to play in a few weeks, but I'm tweaking my deck list to also cut Daze. The mana development is one issue that often hurts me in games, and the fact that it becomes a dead card so quickly, not to mention that I do almost always side them out for post-board games anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by crowe_1
In those 3 slots I opted for the following:
+1 fetch. Brings my land count to 16. I seem to mulligan a LOT due to no-land hands with only 15 in the deck, so I want to go up 1 land.
+1 Collective brutality. Lots of DNT in my meta, so I need ways to axe Containment Priests.
+1 Echoing Truth. Was in the SB but I almost always side some number in. I considered Needle, but with Dazes out I wanted to have enough FoW fuel MD, so I picked a U card from my SB. Also gonna try Defense Grids in the SB, as more folks locally are trying out Ux control shells.
So far I've been happy with D Rit in place of Lotus Petal. DRit can allow some powerful lines of play and can put U decks in a tough spot. E.g., they don't want to counter the DR, but if they don't, they have to burn their counter on my follow-up discard spell, which clears the way for a follow-up reanimation spell. I noticed BR Reanimator opponents doing this to me, so I'm trying it out myself.
Re: Unmask, I tries it previously. It was OK as a one-of, but it creates too much card disadvantage to run a second copy. It worked better with DRits in place of Petals since that kept the B count higher. I might rotate it back in if I don't like my current configuration of disruption (I thin I'm on 3 TS and 2 CB).
Dark Ritual doesn't make a lot of sense to me without Collective Brutality to maximize all of the 3 mana lines of play, I think if you ditch Lotus Petal then you ditch Daze as well to fit both Dark Ritual and Collective Brutality. 16-17 blue cards is enough for FoW, fwiw.
I think Dazes are really situational for one's meta. In my area combo decks are fairly popular so having dazes are nice. I'm currently running two copies of Collective Brutality and 1 Thoughtseize with 13 lands(2 Chrome Mox), just from the last two events that I played Collective Brutality actually saved me quite a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by atlain2
I've had this feeling about daze for a while now. The only reason I was still playing it was the "it's free" argument. Daze / Petal means Tidespout is that much better. I used misdirections for a while and most often than not it's dead G1. Many of our spells are already card disadvantage so this puts even more strain on the little cards we have left in hand. Now I have not played the deck for a while because BR brought too much attention on the yard but I might consider replacing them with dark rits / collective brutality. In addition to thoughtseize, it makes for a pretty solid counterspells/drs hate maindeck. Plus you could always Dark Rit + TS + SNT with your second land or keep mana up for daze. It makes for some unexpected plays.Quote:
Originally Posted by crowe_1
I went 5-0 in my LGS tonight with the last slow list i posted here :)
2-1 Grixis Control
2-1 BUG Post
2-0 Death and Taxes
2-1 Dragon Stompy
2-0 Eldrazi
I'll edit this post late tonight to write a report, overall the list felt great!
Edit:
R1 grixis control
G1 i have a t1 researcher. He doesn't have pressure, i cantrip so my t4 is unstoppable.
G2 i mull to 6, i have reanimate, show and tell and griselbrand. A ponder shows me entomb and thoughtseize, i keep entomb with the idea of seizing + going off all next turn. He has pyromancer and therapies my entomb and show and tell. So in my turn i seize myself and reanimate my griselbrand, but i'm in too low life to draw cards. He topdecks a strix, then a second one, and he overwhelms my gris :(
G3 i have t1 researcher, he probes... No lands! He never plays a spell.
1-0
R2 BUG Post
G1 he opens t1 shaman. I have my needle. Then t2 a cloudpost and i have no clue what's going on. My cantrips don't help, i only have a a show and tell for gris. I wait till t4 to seize+show. He has brainstorm and prime time. I take out the titan, show and tell. He brainstorms, and finds another prime titan :(
G2 i shred him with discard and go off.
G3 it's similar to g2. Eventually i have animate dead that bypasses his flusterstorm :)
R3 D n T
G1 a quick griselbrand finds my needle, quick game from there.
G2 he has t1 needle for gris, t2 revoker and macabres away my t2 reanimate on keranos. But eventually my t4 grave titan pushes through.
R4 Dragon Stompy
G1 i have a t1 entomb, t2 animate dead for iona. He has bridge but eventually he has a hand full of red cards and concedes.
G2 he has leyline, i fow a trini but my cantrips don't help and i die to rabblemaster beats.
G3 he goes to 5, i have a t3 griselbrand
R5 eldrazi.
G1 i find an entomb just on the last turn, he has enbringers out but he only leaves urborg untapped, so gris is able to attack in my turn.
G2 he mulls to 3 searching for leyline, doesn't find it. I have a t3 titan
Overall the deck felt solid, i feel i had a lot of good MUs. Death and Taxes felt really even. Needle MD was MVP :)
So the weekend just started, some offbeat sideboard ideas for the slow builds, these are cards that I would like to test tomorrow in my SB
Xantid Swarm: This was a classic weapon in storm builds. I'm still playing green in my sb so maybe it deserves a try? Against the grixis 4c control decks you will usually fight on the stack, so Xantid could become annoying for them.
Strategic Planning: Looks like a good cantrip post board when you may need to refill on resources. I didn't try it at all but going like, see 3, dump fatty, get reanimation spell looks nice.
Sylvan Library: Seems good to get some selection, the lifeloss might hurt, but post sb reanimates aren't that great anyway
Dreams of the Dead: All our fatties are either black or white, only exception would be tidespout. Getting to 4 mana can be tough but in long games it might be reachable and having griselbrand for at least two turns seems amazing.
Overall, xantid and dreams could work on the same axiom that Teferi's realm: A proactive way to fight against hate (realm on permanents, xantid on the stack, dreams on the stack as well)
Any thoughts?
Xantid Swarm: I'm not a huge fan of it. against 4 color control decks. i feel that they would have a way to either kill or counter the card. Plus it would mean that would need at least to wait a turn before going off. Plus depending on one's build I think a combination of thoughtseize, flusterstorm, fow, daze, and collective brutality would clear the path well enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by owerbart
Strategic Planning: Seems like a 2 mana version of careful study. A way to get a fatty into the grave yard, get a reanimation spell, or even work with brainstorm. Plus it would work around chalice on 1. Seems to have merit so I would say testing this card would be worth it.
Sylvan Library: Even though getting to look at the top 3 cards is nice. I feel that the life loss from draw those extra cards are a huge draw back.
Dreams of the Dead: I agree that the mana cost for this card is high. Especially for a deck that runs under 16 lands. The upkeep cost for this card feels that it would hurt us more then benefit.
Also congrats on that 5-0 =D
Teferi's Realm is a finesse card, and is going to pull you firmly towards prioritizing basic Island (perhaps two) and not running >1 basic Swamp. You will need a greater emphasis on board control (Coll. Brutality) or your own fair-ish plan (something like Mentors) to give the Realm time to deconstruct a puzzle like RiP & CP/Cage both on board. You can pair Realm with Serenity and/or instant speed reanimation effects (the latter is used with JVP builds, bonus points for EoT Jin-Gitaxias mind twisting). The instant speed implications enters the territory of Realm trigger on stack potentially float mana, check opponent response, name lands - technically still okay with exactly Usea, Daze and Reanimate all in hand [but you generally won't have enough life left for this sorcery speed path to matter]. These are much slower expert-level scenarios, so what exactly were you doing to survive up to such a point?Quote:
Originally Posted by owerbart
Xantid also seems a bit tough. Ideal opener would be Bayou -> Xantid, dodge Wasteland, into attack/black source/Entomb & Reanimate. If it's not in some ideal opener, I feel like it's probably just a worse topdeck than discard? Xantid seems like a SnT card, where we are trying to maximize an attack from the hand in as many directions as possible (still need to solve mana issues). There's probably also some legacy achievement you could unlock by running SB Xantid +/- SB DRS (alongside MD Hapless) and going for the Recurring Nightmare like a boss; in this case though DRS begins to address just how we're getting to three mana for the Xantid plan to be more likely to work without necessarily having to change mana base. Without the consistency of Mystical Tutor [banned], the ideal scenario seems difficult to assemble.
Strategic Planning looks like a worse Chart a Course, particularly if you're running Hapless Researcher. Much more likely to draw out countermagic if opponent sees "draw 2." This option is more appealing if we're looking for more emphasis on a blue plan or even just blue count.
Dreams of the Dead is just worse than SnT; more expensive, still open to yard hate.
Sylvan Library seems like a really fun way to run Death's Shadow alongside Grisel - that combat math is glorious when both are out and about; a better subgame than Shahrazad for sure. By itself, not interested in seeing 2 cards down unless dredgers are in the mix (Darkblast or Dakmor). Dredgers aren't profitable until you're replacing 2 draws, but having one in the mix will let you see further down.
At some point it may become more productive to ask whether or not you want to just play some copies of Smallpox + Dakmor and see what happens (this still seems more suspect than just some copies of SB SnT or an amount of Shallow Grave in the main)?? Edit: what about SB Ground Seal in a Shallow Grave presentation of the deck?
Went 4-0 last
Round 1: Vs Mono red prison (2-1)
Round 2: Vs Aluren (2-1)
Round 3: Vs Esper StoneMentor (2-0)
Round 4: Vs Burn (2-0)
My deck
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/12-09...ck-reanimator/
Round 1.
Game 1. Opponent turn 1 chalice through an city of traitors. Did not have a force and thought I knew what he was on so I scooped without playing anything for game 2.
Game 2. Turn 1 Chancellor with two revealed. (win)
Game 3. Opponent had leyline out. Turn two show and tell Tidespout with the only basic island in my deck cause he had magus of the moon out. (win)
Round 2.
Game 1: Got Griselbrand out quick enough to stop his tracks (win)
Game 2: kept a slow hand. Also opponent had Deathrite and I got brainstorm locked =(
Game 3: Turn 2 Elesh Norn followed by Griselbrand
Round 3.
Game 1: Played turn 2 Griselbrand. Opponents attempts to Sword him twice. I draw 14 cards and allow it to resolve. Then just go nuts with the reanimation.
Game 2: Another nutty game. Opening was petal, land, show and tell, griselbrand, chancellor, force of will. Scryed an inkwell. Turn two I draw another petal. Cast show and tell. force of willed back my opponent's force pitching inkwell and got a griselbrand out. Opponent had Monastery Mentor out as well so by all means he could have out raced me. Drew brainstorm, cast brain storm saw that there was 1 of the 2 massacre that I brought in. Wiped the board after combat and proceeded to take the win. (win)
Round 4.
It's burn.... Turn 1/Turn 2 Iona. lol
Things to improve.
So turns out that I'm actually awful at remembering chancellor triggers. I know this will get me a warning at a major event, so going to try to improve on that a bit.