I just remembered a card that might be playable as a finisher in this deck. It does suffer from the same high CMC issues as some other suggestions, but in the interest of brainstorming, what do you guys think of Haunting Echoes?
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I just remembered a card that might be playable as a finisher in this deck. It does suffer from the same high CMC issues as some other suggestions, but in the interest of brainstorming, what do you guys think of Haunting Echoes?
Haunting Echoes is not a finisher. Assuming it's set up correctly it cripples the fuck out of the opponent's deck, probably allowing whatever finisher you DO have to resolve and matter. But really the kind of deck that would play Haunting Echoes is way too slow for this format; Echoes wants you to play not just tons of discard but also stuff like Damnation and probably some mill if you're really going whole hog.
I've actually been debating some sideboard choices that include Extirpate and memoricide (baby echo like effects) to bring in against combo, but I don't consider echo's to be a finisher at all.
First, there are a bunch of people who just put any deck with BW and a confidant in this thread. This allows the thread to be bumped a lot without much real constructive activity as different brews pop up out of nowhere with only around 30 cards similar to other decklists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spacemagic
Secondly, it is very easy to port into. Wastelands and thoughtseizes are present in several legacy decks, and take most of the cost out of the deck. Through that extension, this deck is now a "budget" deck available due to running one of the cheapest land bases (scrublands and marsh flats and not running any blue duals), cheapest creature bases (nothing over 15$ (cept SFM which every standard player can lend you) and not running tarmogoyf), and cheapest spells (Other than the equipment, which can be had for the price of about 1 NM Force of Will).
This has been my pet deck for 4 years because Scrubland is my first dual that I had a playset of, but without any help from new creatures (hopefully NPH will help out), I'm afraid this deck can only hope to steal small, local tournaments..
with a huge portion of people switching to junk and just anything with knight in it, i decided to drop my junk deck and went back to my roots, deadguy ale. I think a lot of this is to try and combat junk, here is my list so far.
3 top
2 relic of progenitus
4 mom
4 seize
4 swords
3 gatekeeper
4 bob
2 mystic
1 jitte
4 hymn
an assortment of 21 lands
4 vindicate
2 nighthawk
1 solas
1 sofi
First - I felt like I had to re-arrange how the deck is posted to look at it, I mean no offense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainbow Maker
Second, I feel like you're a bit light on threats. I think this has a lot to do with the 3 tops and 4 Hymns, but it just depends on how you want to run the deck i guess. Personally, if I was going to run tops i'd probably try and shoehorn in at least a couple of tombstalkers. However, since you are running the Gatekeepers you could also run Abyssal Persecutor - it's just a matter of taste I think - whichever you feel will be best in your meta and build. I would immagine you could cut a couple of disruption cards to get there (a top and a vindicate would be my first choices...but that's without even so much as fishing your deck at all).
Third - I couldn't figure out the maindeck Relic's? It could easilly be a meta call, but I just didn't see it as necessary against most decks being run at the moment - especially since you're running all of the removal that you are, so stuff like KotR, Terravore, and other growing creatures really aren't too much of a threat. It's more stuff with built in protection that is an issue - like Iona, Emmy, Pog, etc - and in most cases grave hate doesn't do much against them. Again - I'm sure there is something I'm not seeing, but these just seemed odd to me.
Last - I'm assuming you're running wastelandss to go with the hymns and vindicates?
Had i brought my cards with me today, i could have had RK Post sign my Scullers :( Really cool guy tho
Back on topic. I think you could drop the main deck relics to round out the Nighthawks, they are pretty darn good. I think i'd actually miss Scullers in this, and its not because i met rk post today i am running them in my list. I think i'd post my list sometime soon, as im more or less finished with it now, just waiting for the cards to arrive from people i've traded with over the interwebs.
anyone have lewis laskins list from today's SCG Open??
I second that request.
top 4'd a GPT today in Arlington, WA with my Gate-splashed-white Dead Guy ale list... which will follow along with comments tomorrow after some sleep.
i just want to say that there is no sweeter feeling than top-decking a Diabolic Edict after Forgemaster goes all-in on dropping a Blightsteel (instead of a Sundering Titan) with only 2 lands in play.
No you didn't. Unless you were cheating and everyone allowed it. There are no Legacy PTQ seasons. Do you mean a Grand Prix Trial?Quote:
Originally Posted by warfordium
It's not Laskin's list, but still I strongly suggest you should try out this one:
Junk&Taxes / Mirran Junk
4 Mother of Runes
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Thoughtseize
2 Leonin Relic-Warder
4 Dark Confidant
4 Scrubland
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Plains
2 Swamp
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Aura of Silence
SB: 2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 3 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 1 Cursed Totem
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Perish
I already made a finals out of 41 people and won another 51-people tournament.
Every card so far has been great and offers great utility, the only problem is that sometimes it tends to stall the ground since you might not want to trade your creatures and usually want to have Mom on the defense. Luckyly the Stoneforge package breaks stalling situations very fast, expecially coupled with the Crusader, which is the new Goyf (unequipped) or Progenitus (equipped).
SoLaS has been a bit underwhelming, and that's why I added Jitte (along with me usually drawing Stoneforge after both the Swords), but pro:white is sometimes needed to protect your dudes from Swords if you don't have Mom out. Obviously if the new Sword has even at least 1 relevant ability, that would be an auto include in SoLaS slot.
Hope you like it!
Wow, congrats on the results. Is Horizon Canopy/verdantcatacombs/windswept heath just for cycling/bluff or am I missing some green cards?Quote:
Originally Posted by 3eowulf
I think I like the Mirran Crusader in the list. Usually I have nighthawk to fly over, but they serve the same purposes:
1) Serve to push damage through against bigger creatures (tarmogoyf, knight, tombstalker)
2) Hold equipment well, with at least a 2 toughness so that when equipped with SoLaS is out of bolt range
+ I've always felt that nighthawks clock was too slow. Its a 4 point life swing, but the deck just cant compete in terms of creature power if the game goes long.
How does the deck do against a resolved BOB? It seems like the deck, with only 4 swords, has difficulty with problematic creatures that dont attack or hit the board to early. Revoker can handle those with activated abilties, but on the draw, a goblin lackey looks like it would completely demolish if you didnt have swords.
In my meta, this deck is played a lot, we call it B/W Tempo:
// Lands
4 [RAV] Plains
2 [ON] Swamp
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [A] Scrubland
4 [MPR] Wasteland
// Creatures
2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [UL] Mother of Runes
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
2 [TE] Diabolic Edict
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
1 [GPX] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [AP] Vindicate
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [LRW] Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 2 [GTW] Yixlid Jailer
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [GTW] Path to Exile
@ workingdude: there are few creatures right now that aren't used to attack / for their activated abilites / can't be killed by an equip, so 4 spot removal has always been enough for me until now.
Fast goblin hands, aka lakey on the play, might be a problem as we have a limited amount of answers, but you should consider that:
1- At least in my meta goblin was declining due to zoo and gw aggro
2- Unless goblins keeps going broken on you, you can stabilize in the midgame. At a dangerously low life total but still alive.
And yes, Canopy is there just for drawing while still tapping for W.
EDIT: btw, never ever think of playing a deck like this without Revokers, or you'll get raped by E.E. and Deeds (and that's why I stopped playing uw tempo).
@ datanaga: that list is cool and super good vs aggro decks, but i think it's a bit outdated since combo is on the rise.
@ 3eowulf
Do you really need 4 revokers? And what are usual targets for relic-warders?
Don't you miss Serra Avenger? It can fly, blocks after attack and requires only 2 counters on vial.
3eowulf:
Great finishes!
Some questions about the deck:
When would the cursed totem come in? Seeing as it shuts off mom and half of mystic I'm curious as to the matchups you'd want it in for? Elves definitely, but plague + removal might work better there.
What are your boarding plans against TES and ANT
I like the canopies as you really need ww or a vial, and late game they're a great topdeck. I was using top for this purpose in my build with nighthawks, but still had some problems against wasteland with only 20 land. This card seems to mitigate that.
with no instant sac-effects how do you handle a hardcast emrakul (12 post) or a NO progenitus?
Both Revokers and LRW are awesome. Don't lower the numbers of Revokers as they shut down too many things.
LRW were originally a 3-of but i lowered them because I needed to play Jitte and couldn't bring myself to remove anything else. Aside from wierd tricks with your other creatures, they are in the deck against brown decks in general and to supplement Revokers (even against Deed and E.E.). Plus you want outs to Moat, and to shut down opposing Vials or Equipments without blocking yours. I even used them as denial against Rock removing Moxens.
The problem with Serra Avenger is that, while it can attack, it doesn't actually survive any blocking, and sometimes you have to block without an active Mom. So, you a have nice attacker that can't block anythig (except for Vendilion) unless you have Mom or an equipment, but that attacker also has a slow clock. The Crusader instead is used defensively as long as you need to stabilize, but is also a 2-turn (and usually 1-turn) clock, which means you won't regret the time spent blocking instead of attacking. Also, having spells in the 3cc slots helps, despite the dis-sinergy with Vial and Bob.
EDIT: I'm glad the deck is receiving a good welcome both online and IRL ^_^
@ Star|Scream:
Totem was mostly to crush Green&Taxes (shuts them off completely) which crushed (even if with a bit of luck) me in the first event. Since I expected those to be more succesful this time i chose to try it. Is probably just unneeded however.
Against ANT/TES I just bring in all my board. Almost:
+2 Extirpate +1 Relic of Progenitus +1 Aura of Silence +3 Enlightened Tutor +1 Ethersworn Canonist +1 Thorn of Amethyst +1 Leonin Relic-Warder (+ 1 Engineered Plague)
-4 StP -X Stoneforge Package -1/3 Crusader -1/4 Vials (as you can figure I'm still trying out various siding options).
In the last tournament I faced both DDFT (2-0) and ANT (2-1). The first pilot was inexperienced and made a few mistakes that costed him the match while I was light on disruption, the second one was much better but I got there (losing g1) once with sb hate and once with smart md critters.
Obviously you have to pray they won't kill you in the first one/two turns, but if you manage to make the second landdrop the game is winnable. And is anyway much better than it would be if you where playing any other deck without blue.
I have to admit my experience with 12-post or NO is limited to online cockatrice.
12-post: Wasteland+Revokers(Candelabra)+Discard should get you there faster than they can drop a fatty. Extirpate might occasionally be a blowout.
NO: Again the disruption of the deck is king, since Revokers on Hierarch and Wastes should give you time to race Prog. You also have your own NO in Crusader+Equip. Post sb you might be playing Perish (still don't know if it's worth it), but for sure the Burrenton will happily sacrifice themselves for your cause.
Right you are, sir. thank-you for the correction.
3eowulf:
Fair enough. Didn't think of the burrentons to help out against progenitus.
By tricks with the relic-warder, I can think of using jitte counters in response to the trigger to permanently remove their artifact. Then solas/volrath to recur?
Also you can vial in the warder in response to sculler's trigger, and then remove him to take a second card from your opponent.
Any others?
What's your take on inquisition vs thoughtseize? Are you seeing any 4+cc that's worth the life (and $)