[Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)

Anyone in this thread feel like there hasn't been any new or interesting discussions lately?

I think I found something. I was practicing with my Enchantress deck today and I realized this interaction between Sylvan Library and Words of War:

Pay 3 mana for replacements effect from Words of War.
Stack Sylvan Library. Distribute 6 damage among legal targets.

I found this interesting, because I'm normally accustomed to playing Words of War more passively, playing it only after securing Solitary Confinement and multiple Enchantresses on the table. That's probably why I noticed this interaction just now, by chance.

In fact, I was almost doubtful this interaction worked and I almost posted a question instead of this post asking if the interaction was legal. But instead, I googled "Sylvan Library Words of War" and found this ancient Adrian Sullivan article on the motherboard:

Sullivan Library by Adrian Sullivan

He describes several tricks Sylvan Library works, including casting cantrips or slowtrips ("draw a card at the beginning of your upkeep) prior to Library activations so that you can put those cards back into your library.

But more importantly, he details interactions and drafts a decklist using the following cards that prompted me to post:

Abundance
Pursuit of Knowledge
Words of War
Words of Worship


So my question is: can these interactions provide new tech for Enchantress to become better than it is now?

Can we adjust Enchantress to abuse Words of War + Sylvan Library? Or Abundance + Sylvan Library? The latter interaction always ensures we draw gas post-Enchantress.

Can we use these cards for a merit outside of Library interactions? For example, having one Enchantress effect down and Abundance out increases your chance of hitting an enchantment, Argothian, or Replenish if you're running low on cards. In my Enchantress list, I run 2-3 Sylvan Library already, I think I might try a single 1-of Abundance.

Hmmm i wonder if that would work?? cause I've won plenty of games with Words of War out and if Sylvan Library can do 6 damage per turn along with drawing effects provided from tour enchantress effects... then i might have to run 2 Words of War to make sure i can get it out quickly. Also, if you have 2 Words of War in play, then you can pay 2 mana for 4 damage. the oracle text says "Oracle Text: At the beginning of your draw step, you may draw two additional cards. If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library."

you wouldn't lose any life because you acutally didnt draw anything right? can a judge on this forum confirm this??

2 words of war? it doesn't work: you can't skip a draw you've already skipped

its not about skipping the draw step 2 times.... its about having 2 Words of War in play, therefore giving you 2 effects from skipping each card you would ever draw. so that means if Sylvan Library was in play, instead of drawing 3 cards (granted you have 2 Words of War in play), you can pay 6 mana and deal 12 damage total to 6 different targets.

you're wrong:

04/10/2004 If multiple Words have been used prior to drawing a card, then you can choose which one to apply (and use up) each time you draw a card.

AFAIK, the main points about this are:

- Multiple Words of War in play are redundant, there's nothing you can do with two of them that you can't do with only one.

- Yes, you activate Words of War three times in you upkeep and you do 6 damage in your draw step without actually drawing anything and not having to pay life with Sylvan Library.

- No, Sylvan Library doesn't trigger with Solitary Confinement in play because you skip your draw step.


I've tried Abundance, but I prefer Pursuit of Knowledge. However, I see both only as replacements if, for some reason, you can't run Words of War. This is what happens to me in a version I'm developing; since it runs 4 Suppression Field MD, Words of War activations are usually too expensive to prevent me from decking myself or to be an efficient win condition. Otherwise, I think Words of War are too good not to run.

Have you tried running either Abundance/PoK alongside WoW?

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EDIT: On another note, I've been testing this list and making gradual improvements:

// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [US] Serra's Sanctum
1 [U] Taiga
4 [R] Savannah
9 [ZEN] Forest (4)
1 [ZEN] Plains (2a)

// Creatures
4 [US] Argothian Enchantress

// Spells
1 [ON] Words of War
2 [UD] Replenish
4 [ON] Enchantress's Presence
3 [VI] Elephant Grass
4 [IN] Sterling Grove
3 [JU] Solitary Confinement
4 [DIS] Utopia Sprawl
3 [TE] Mirri's Guile
1 [MI] Worldly Tutor
3 [5E] Sylvan Library
1 [PLC] Seal of Primordium
1 [LRW] Lignify
1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [HOP] Oblivion Ring
1 [9E] Blood Moon
1 [LG] Moat

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [UD] Replenish
SB: 1 [8E] Choke
SB: 1 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 [10E] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 1 [WL] Peacekeeper
SB: 1 [IA] Circle of Protection: Green

(1 extra slot)

Notes:

- I'm now a fan of both Mirri's Guile and Sylvan Library and bumped them BOTH up to THREE. 6 Tops effects + 8 Enchantresses make for some INTENSE card-drawing and selection. To do this, I had to remove the Ground Seals. It took me a while to realize that Ground Seal kinda sucks. Yes, it's a little nuts with an enchantress effect, but if you kept a hand which involves spending turn 2 on a Ground Seal, you should be losing anyway. Ground Seal draws an extra card, but it's a waste of tempo. Ground Seal's best use as a defense is against Life from the Loam, Extirpate, Reanimate and Dread Return, Loyal Retainers and perhaps more. These cards don't see play in the format's dominant decks (TES, Merfolk, Zoo, Madness) so I think it's safe to assume that Ground Seal should still be considered as a niche metagame card, but it is no longer MD material.

- Worldly Tutor is still good. I've cut it to one, but one is still necessary. Aside from fetching Argothian, it can fetch Vexing Shusher in the Blue matchup. Speaking of which, as dontbiteitholmes mentioned, it's amazing here. Lastly, against Merfolk, it can fetch Peacekeeper easily.

- Chrome Mox. I know, not this again. I'm not going to advocate using this/Lotus Petal/ESG as the debate is getting old/pointless. You can agree to disagree on which is the optimal accelerant, but I think most people can agree that the deck needs a tiny bit of turn 1 acceleration.

- Circle of Protection: Green. Madness is becoming or already has become a tier 1 deck. It can easily beat us with its speed if we're not careful. We have Moat and Solitary Confinement, and that's usually not enough to win because if they have Survival online, they can kill you before you're able to keep Confinement from saccing itself, or against Moat they can tutor for Trygon Predator and destroy your lock. COP: Green is the next rock we can throw at Madness as they not only stop multiple Vengevines, they can stop Trygon Predator from wrecking you, as well as Progenitus.

A lot of people give up on Enchantress because it's extremely hard to play correctly and its success does depend on its card choices, but I feel that with enough collective input from such a thread as this one and continuous testing and tweaking, Enchantress can become a reliable deck to consider when going to a tournament.

if 2 Words of war r in play, and you instead skip drawing a card... then u can activate both of those WoW abilities because u didnt draw a card at a time when u were able to...

and to the guy who says that u skip your draw step with confinement in play... it dont matter cause each enchantment u cast will give u an option to draw more cards.

on the subject of moat... i dont think moat is a requirement anymore just because the format has more flying options than ever... affinity has flyers, wonder will give bant decks flyer along with their trygon predators that will wreck your board. even fish has corralhelm commander... i personally prefer humility over moat due to those reasons. on top of that, once u do get emrakul in your hand... u can always Oring the humility before u cast emrakul.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by affinitypimp

if 2 Words of war r in play, and you instead skip drawing a card... then u can activate both of those WoW abilities because u didnt draw a card at a time when u were able to...

and to the guy who says that u skip your draw step with confinement in play... it dont matter cause each enchantment u cast will give u an option to draw more cards.

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Replacement effects apply one at a time for each event. You can activate each Words of War once, but you are not going to get 4 damage from a single card, you are going to get 2 because only the first activation replaces that draw, while the second activation keeps waiting for the next draw.

Solitary Confinement has nothing to do with Words of War, it has to do with Sylvan Library. Solitary Confinement in play makes Sylvan Library useless by forcing you to skip the step where Sylvan Library triggers - which is why people play Mirri's Guile instead.

wrong again my friend..... Both of the Words of War abilities will be on the stack after you choose which one goes on the stack first... so when you can draw a card, you instead pay 1 mana for the first Words of War while its on the stack, then you will be asked to pay for the next Words of War while its on the stack because the option to draw the card HAS ALREADY been in effect since they are both replacement effects. So the game will see that you didn't DRAW THE CARD... so your first Words of War will go off and do 2 damage to a legal target, and your next one wil do 2 damage to a legal target (of course you pick the targets during paying for their respective activation costs). Its not about whether the first replacement effect replaced any type of draw, its the FACT THAT THEIR ARE 2 SEPARATE REPLACEMENT EFFECTS THAT CHECK FOR WHETHER YOU DREW ANY CARD OR NOT. i hope this solves the arguement because if you guys dont understand this much in the game, then why bother playing legacy?? I'm not saying im the smartest guy here but its obvious that there are 2 sources that you can choose to activate when a condition is met, and in this scenerio, its whether you draw a card or not.

Yeah running Emrakul and Humilty maindeck seems off. That's quite an anti-combo.

actually i did run into that... but it didnt matter cause i kepted emrakul in my hand until i Oringed my humility and casted emrakul for the win. The thing about that also is that once you get the confinement lock, you're already winning so it doesnt matter whether it takes you 4 turns to seal the deal or 10 turns to seal the deal. Hell, i usually draw my deck out many times and then cast emrakul (sometimes hes the very last card, yeah i know) and win next turn since the draw step is skipped via Confinement.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by affinitypimp

wrong again my friend..... Both of the Words of War abilities will be on the stack after you choose which one goes on the stack first... so when you can draw a card, you instead pay 1 mana for the first Words of War while its on the stack, then you will be asked to pay for the next Words of War while its on the stack because the option to draw the card HAS ALREADY been in effect since they are both replacement effects. So the game will see that you didn't DRAW THE CARD... so your first Words of War will go off and do 2 damage to a legal target, and your next one wil do 2 damage to a legal target (of course you pick the targets during paying for their respective activation costs). Its not about whether the first replacement effect replaced any type of draw, its the FACT THAT THEIR ARE 2 SEPARATE REPLACEMENT EFFECTS THAT CHECK FOR WHETHER YOU DREW ANY CARD OR NOT. i hope this solves the arguement because if you guys dont understand this much in the game, then why bother playing legacy?? I'm not saying im the smartest guy here but its obvious that there are 2 sources that you can choose to activate when a condition is met, and in this scenerio, its whether you draw a card or not.

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First of all, Words of War has an activated ability that generates a replacement effect on resolution. If you wait until the draw step to pay anything with Words of War, you are doing it wrong. It's the effect of the resolved ability who replaces cards with damage, so you must activate them in your upkeep because the card you draw automatically in each of your draw steps is a special action and doesn't use the stack. I hope we all agree here.

Second, for the same reason that you can't spend 1 mana to activate both Words of War, you can't expect two replacement effects to replace one same event at the same time. Replacement effects are not triggered abilities and don't work like triggered abilities.

Both effects see that you are going to draw a card. Each of them wants to replace that card with 2 damage. It's up to you to choose which one will do it. Simple as that.

For example, if you have three Enchantresses out there and you cast an enchantment, you'll get three triggers that force you to draw a card. If you activate Words of War three times in response, what do you think that happens to the first card? All three replacement effects want to replace the first card with damage. You choose one and it applies, and the other two wait. Then you proceed to resolve the second trigger - both effects want to replace that card, you choose one. Then it comes the third trigger, and the remaining replacement effect applies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Comprehensive Rules

614.1a Effects that use the word “instead” are replacement effects. Most replacement effects use the word “instead” to indicate what events will be replaced with other events.

614.3. There are no special restrictions on casting a spell or activating an ability that generates a replacement effect. Such effects last until they’re used up or their duration has expired.

614.4. Replacement effects must exist before the appropriate event occurs—they can’t “go back in time” and change something that’s already happened. Spells or abilities that generate these effects are often cast or activated in response to whatever would produce the event and thus resolve before that event would occur.

614.5. A replacement effect doesn’t invoke itself repeatedly and gets only one opportunity for each event.

614.7. If a replacement effect would replace an event, but that event never happens, the replacement effect simply doesn’t do anything.

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614.1a Effects that use the word “instead” are replacement effects. Most replacement effects use the word “instead” to indicate what events will be replaced with other events.

I hope you also notice where it says "events". When it says "events" that means that it is plural, and having 2 Words of War out at the same time makes that event plural. It doesnt even have to be having 2 Words of War out.... you can have a Words of War out and a Words of Wisdom and you will be doign 2 damage and gaining 5 life (so long as you tap the mana for each replacement effect). Thanks for clearifying that for us all friend.

No, you must choose one of the effects to apply. From the Words of War gatherer entry: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...iverseid=40191

"If multiple Words have been used prior to drawing a card, then you can choose which one to apply (and use up) each time you draw a card."

here it is right here:

http://www.magiccards.info/query?q=!Words+of+War


Trust me, i've seen this done before, and i seen this guy pull this off with a Words of Worship at a tournament where a L2 judge was called to come look at it with him having "two" separate Words of Worship in play and something making him draw 2 cards (i forget what it was) and he gained 20 life total because he had 2 Words of Worship out and 4 extra available mana.

If you want another example not related to Enchantress, suppose you control a Leyline of the Void and your opponent controls Progenitus. You force him to sacrifice it through an Edict of some sort. Now you have one event (Progenitus going from the battlefield to the graveyard) and two replacement effects (Progenitus trying to shuffle itself into the library, and Leyline trying to exile Progenitus). Explain how you apply both together and how you can end up with Progenitus exiled and in a library at the same time.

EDIT: Whatever that player did was wrong. Two events (each card he had to draw), two replacements. He could activate any number of Words any number of times, but only two activations could have been applied. He could only gain 10 life.

well i dont know and i wasn't going to argue with a judge cause it makes them pick you out if they really wanna be a dick. but if you had 2 separate Progs and say someone grindstone/painter's servant your deck, then you would have both of them coming back to your library because on Prog it specifically says instead of going to the GY shuffle it back into your library (this is a triggered ability that CAN be stifled) so it never actually would be going to the GY, so the Leyline doesn't even see it in its trigger since there was a replacement effect on it prior to the game seeing it to go into a specific area of the game, in this case the GY.

Progenitus has no triggered abilities. What prevents it from touching a graveyard is a static ability, more specifically a replacement effect. It can never be in a graveyard except corner cases like Humility being in play, which is not the case in the example I have given you. Leyline has no triggered abilities either. I suggest you read the part of the rules that explains triggered and static abilities because I think you are a little confused.

The original matter is always the same, though. Only one replacement effect can modify a single event, be it exiling Progenitus, shuffling it into a library, dealing 2 damage with Words of War or gaining 5 life with Words of Worship. In case of multiple replacements, the affected player or the affected object's controller chooses which one to apply.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by affinitypimp

actually i did run into that... but it didnt matter cause i kepted emrakul in my hand until i Oringed my humility and casted emrakul for the win. The thing about that also is that once you get the confinement lock, you're already winning so it doesnt matter whether it takes you 4 turns to seal the deal or 10 turns to seal the deal. Hell, i usually draw my deck out many times and then cast emrakul (sometimes hes the very last card, yeah i know) and win next turn since the draw step is skipped via Confinement.

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Yeah, that's the main problem I have with Emrakul. Once you have the Confinement lock you're already winning, so why play Emrakul instead of just WoW and Sigil? I mean, decking myself has never been a problem. In fact as I've said before in probably over 500 games with Enchantress I've never decked myself, not even once. Sure he's uncounterable, but you have win cons and multiple Replenishes and towards the end of the game you can easily string 3 of those together in one turn, so getting all your wincons countered would be an extreme fringe case since very few decks even run 5 hard counters.

I can see maybe playing him in the SB, but I don't think he's MD material. Then in the SB I think Dovescape + Vexing Shusher is the better option since it is good vs. most of the same decks you'd bring in Emrakul for and costs 7-10 mana for the uncounterable Dovescape that ends the game instead of 15. 9-10 is for when you play Shusher then before passing priority play Dovescape so they can't Swords him or w/e before you get a chance to play the Scape. Then of course the Shusher makes other spells in your deck uncounterable. I'd prefer that synergy to Humility and Emrakul in the main at the same time, though I could agree with Humility in the SB in some cases.

Also Sylvan Library + WoW has been talked about before at length, so that's not a new conversation. When I first started pressing people to play Guile that was the main argument against it from some people.