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This is another deck that should try to add Sensei's diving top to the main. Against the Threholds deck we can side in counterbalances for ultimate hate against'em.
Wouldn't we be better if we cut a Mediate and two Opt/Peak? We already have 3 Cunning Witch in which to gets the Meditates. Plus the tops help when you are going off and you won't really draw them mid-combo with one in play and only two in the deck.
It's very antiproductive for the deck. It's not an instant, so that strikes against the main concept of the deck: Ability to go off in the midgame and every after then. The CounterTop are dead draws midcombo. That could do in Spring Tide, but Spring Tide's sucky already. Why? Spring Tide is approx. 1 turn faster. That is irrelevant when you win, just that you win. I almost always combo in response to a game breaking effect that will cause me to lose.
For a deck like Solidarity, I don't believe in a "if you can't fight them, join them" concept. Solidarity can beat any deck given the skill of the player (and of course some luck, being a pro can't negate bad topdecks), and I really don't think it helps against any matchups by making it sorcery speed and adding a one-sided chalice at 1,2 and sometimes 3 effect. Really.
Find a good instant-speed way to battle countertop - and if you can do that without splashing a color (I'm thinking the determined half of Bound/Determined, Orim's Chant, Krosan's Grip etc.) - and you've pushed Solidarity to DTB status again, I think. Really, I'd love to see that happen.
We already have a bunch of land, what is a few more permanents? Besides, the thrasholds deck doesnt exactly win fast. lets use this to the advantageQuote:
Originally Posted by Willoe
There is a reason that an optimal list contains fetchlands. Deck thinning is highly important. I don't see the point of playing anymore permanents. It's only because we HAVE to play Islands that we do it to make the deck function. We don't have to play countertop. I really can't see what it should help against. Just play some Spell Snares.
And yes, Threshold is fast. But they don't care how long it takes to kill you. It isn't threshold's speed we're afraid of, just the counters. Even though the combat phase is pretty irrelevant for us, Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose puts a heavy pressure on us, giving us little time to find what we need, if for example our High Tide just had been countered.
Thresh aint that fast. You said it yourself that the counters are most scary so counterbalace counters the counters. besides, they aren't going to side in krosan grip. they are ripe for the picking if we keep creatures off the board and hit combo. we dont even have to combo fully, a few short brain freeze will do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Willoe
I also have had problems with counterbalance, they ara a real plague in my meta.
I have had an idea and I want to know what do you think about. In the slot where we usually fit in 4 opt or 2 opt-2 peek, what about bringing 3 repeal-1 peek???
Does someone has tested repeal in maindeck??? I think it's a good card to fight against counterbalance and it can be useful in other matchups, buying you time if you cast it in third turn against any kind of target.
Grip is the best solution available to CB. Playing 4 Sideboard, we have 6 ways to get them, which is in most cases plenty. Here's a list Shimster posted on the Solidarity primer boards.
// Lands
10 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Tropical Island
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
4 Opt
4 Impulse
4 Reset
4 Force of Will
3 Remand
3 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
3 Turnabout
2 Brain Freeze
2 Flash of Insight
2 Twincast
// Sideboard
3 Echoing Truth
4 Krosan Grip
2 Brain Freeze
2 Twincast
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
Sb plan against Thresh with CB:
-1 Meditate
-1 Turnabout
-3 Remand
-1 Opt
+2 Twincast
+1 Brain Freeze
+3 Krosan Grip
Twincasts haven't been in my build for quite some time, but I'm trying them out again. So far, I have mixed feelings. I'm usually really scared to use it as a combo piece, because you could get 2-for-1-ed easily. Yet, They've been really strong in other situations. They're very good against Sui variants for Twincasting opposing spells, but also Twincasting Flash of Insight, which can easily win you the game.
I'm not sure yet how they perform against Storm Combo, so I want to ask you guys if anyone has experience with that.
Shimster went 7-3 in matches (best of 2) against UGb Thresh with all scary stuff, and in the limited amount of games I played I went about even. I'm not saying this is any proof of this list beating Thresh, but it's certainly promising.
Serioulsy, the only card that still fucks you over is Confidant. That card is so good. It effectively put's you on a clock that's way faster than Thresh's usual clock.
Another question I wanted to ask here: Do you guys usually FoW Standstill? I find it's a pretty though call. Usually, the Standstill only nets the opponent about 1 Counter, so you'd be about even. On the other hand, if he draws more, he's in a better shape. Also, losing a bad card in your hand doesn't hurt as much as losing it in mid combo, since you have the time to refill your hand again pre-combo.
I dont like splashing a color. you are too wasteland vulnerable. have you thought about the countertop idea i posted? The sensei's diving top is already amazing in the deck and than you sideboared in counterbalacne to really wreck face. This way those thrashold lists with wasteland are suddenly not a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
Splashing a coulour is honestly not that much of a big deal. You've got the choice to fetch Trops. You wil rarely see them in your hand, and even more rarely against decks with Wasteland. If you're scared about them, run a single instead of 2.
I've thought about and tested the CB and Top. Top is definately not amazing mainboard. It's alright, but not amazing. Playing 5-6 dead cards post SB means your combo will get fucked a lot of times. Also, CB and Top both suck in multiples. You also don't want them if your opponent drops his first, and you have to wait one more turn to play around Daze.
It hurts the combo way too much to play more permanents. Grip is the best way to get rid of counterbalance. Decks packing wasteland won't play CB so just fetch out the basics.
Exactly. I'd even go as far as saying that there aren't too many decks that pack Wasteland you don't have a very positive match against anyway. The only ones I can think of are Golbins and Tempo Thresh. Both are virtually non existant in my meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
Everytime i splash a color I get jacked by wasteland. Its not worth loosing to manascrew.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
How cant top be amazing? Everytime I see it is a bomb. We play impulse, per through depths, opt, fetchlands, etc. to see new cards each time. It really is an amazing card even when going off! in multiple you can get past them. Counterbalence piches to Force of Will. Did you know that a fetchland and a Brainstorm is like a mini combo? You put back two card you dont need and then you use the fetchland to shuffle. This works with impulse etc.
You need to be able to see many cards to find either combo in hight ide or countertop.
The top lets you get around drawing permanents!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
The deck still needs to be able to combo out. Have you played the deck? Drawing lands as you combo out sucks enough and adding more permanents will make the deck fizzle much more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Magic 101
I know, but you can avoid bad cards with top or get rid of them using Brainstrom. Let me just say that I run the full 8 fetchlands so maybe that is part of your problem?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
Solidarity is a deck that's been designed to be consistent. Top will not improve this consistency. Top engine costs alot of mana, and prevents you from effectively playing better cantrips earlier on. If you do choose to play the cantrips, you will have a dead permanent in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Magic 101
Do you agree with me that Top is worse than all the other cantrips we play?
Saying that CB pitches to FoW is a bad argument, and it definatly doesn't make it playable. It's still dead in mid-combo. It's usually dead pre combo as well, as you have a much higher chance of playing it later than your opponent.
No, top is definetly not worse than other cantrips. You can use it during each turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
Hey, also, what if they get countertop in play first? How do you expect to find anything when they counter all your spells?
If you play a turn 1 diving top, you can still have a ton of search using just only 1 diving top and 8 fetchland!
It is called 3cc. They really have nothing that can counter that with CB and we have Forces and remands of our own. Top will not help this deck at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Magic 101
Did you guys know that Fetchland Tendrils uses Sensei"s diving top WITHOUT Counterbalance? This deck needs to be updated for the times and not live in 3 years ago.
sSO you expect to always the cuning wish in your hand with litle or no search? What if they Force of will or daze and you dont have Force?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.