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Except with the Devil it doesn't matter which choice they make. A 4/3 or 4 to their face is good for burn at the low cost of 1 mana. Part of the problem with Browbeat was the cost was too high for either effect that could leave us in a poor position.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marke
Drawing 2-3 devils early is going to screw the opponent either way. 2-3 4/3s by turn 2 or 8-12 damage by turn 2 is amazing.
In the past, cards like these have been easily overrated because their "rate" wasn't very good to begin with. So far, none of the existing cards with a similar mechanic (having your opponents choose) come close to the value that Vexing Devil is able to provide for just :r:. It's surely a card that won't be very good for all types of decks, but as far as Burn is concerned, this is a bargain for just :r:.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marke
As an additional note, thinking of drawing a Vexing Devil late in the game reminds me of the feeling I get when I draw a Figure of Destiny late in the game - it's a creature that can potentially be 4/4 (though in the case of Vexing Devil, it's weaker at 4/3, but cheaper at :r:).
Regards,
jares
Here's the thing: the creature we want to replace is the shitty Keldon Marauders. There's no doubt in my mind that Vexing Devil > Keldon Marauders. Unless you know of a card that is better than marauders and devil, I see no reason to not run the devil.
i dont know what creature to replace , the only creature i am sure i want to keep is Goblin guide he is the all mighty and powerfull scary 1 drop of the deck. , the other creatures have their own utilities let me explain:Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Grim lavamancer: Uncountereable shock every turn , giving us card advantage and reach.
Keldon Marauder: Fog+shock or Lava axe for 1R.
Hellspark elemental: Anti-counter,anti-discard tech.
Figure of destiny: Give us something to do when we are flooded.
what do you guys are replacing for this new devil????... im thinking about keldon or figure they both are the weakest cards of the deck...
Honestly, FOD should not be considered in the deck. He's terrible. He's really, really, really bad. Even in a control shell, he sucks. He's out. It's not even something to do when you're flooded because you'll be dead long before he actually becomes useful (6/6 flying first strike).Quote:
Originally Posted by Basara
Hellspark or Keldon are the two targets as they are dismissable creatures. People don't care about them as much as they do Guide or Lavamancer because they go away eventually.
Personally, I'd lean -way- more towards Hellspark Elemental. It can't even block, it's mana intensive for what it does.. It's a nice opener against dredge, but I wouldn't much want to see it against Maverick or something.
Keldon Marauders is 2 for possibly 5 damage, always 2 damage. Hellspark Elemental is 4 for maybe 6 damage, probably less. Hellspark can bounce.
This is my current list. I am testing. I really like it!
Creatures 15
4x Vexing Devil
4x Goblin Guide
4x Spark Elemental
3x Grim Lavamancer
Sorcery 10
2x Browbeat
4x Chain Lightning
4x Lava Spike
Instant 16
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Price Of Progress
4x Rift Bolt
1x Thunderous Wrath
3x Fireblast
Land 19
15x Mountain
4x Scalding Tarn
SB
1x Sulfuric Vortex
2x Anarchy
2x Smash To Smithereens
4x Surgical Extraction
2x Tormod's Crypt
4x Mind Break Trap
The deck performs very consistently. Although opening a hand with thunderous wrath in it is the cardboard equivalent of being born with one less finger.
Having a ~30% chance of being born with one less finger I find that to be highly inconsistent :laugh:.Quote:
Originally Posted by baghdadbob
Wrath should be no more than a 1-of, if that. The deck doesn't need it and can't utilize it to it's fullest potential.
You might be right sir. This is my first time testing the card so I will try it in all numbers and see. Thanks for the advice though! :smile:
@ Drago
You're analyzing the card in the wrong way, you shouldn't think that since both cards ON THEIR OWN would be good that this card is good. How good the cards would be on their own is a very simply and stupid way to interpret this card.
Vexing devil is a improved lavaspike when people don't want to deal with the undercosted 4/3. It is a 4/3 though when you want the lavaspike... Overall that means this is just not good, early on playing this conflicts with playing the cards you need to play first (marauders, hellspark, goblin guide whatever) and later on this sucks because many decks in legacy simply ignore your creature on board.
Burn shouldn't be playing bad topdecks in legacy, there simply is no need to. This card isn't good enough when it's good to compensate for when it's really bad..
One key of burn is that removal and blockers are bad agianst it by having haste, avoiding combat etc. vexing devil just makes removal better against the deck, is a lousy topdeck and is never much better then a lava spike... Just a crap card..
The key to making any card that has a drawback of any kind playable is to work around the drawback. Browbeat and Devil are no different. As I said with Browbeat the problem is you do nothing for a turn other then draw 3 cards. In other decks that might not be an issue but in Burn to not doing any damage for a turn cycle is a big deal.
Devil is a bit different, in burn I think it can be abused in certain matches such as the example I gave earlier about siding it in against a deck where you expect Leylines to show up in G2 and G3. I don't see it as a MD card, certainly not a 4 of, because it violates my preferred "creatures" Burn philosophy, but I do see it in my SB.
The miracle burn is really, really bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
Think about it. You'll see 10-13 cards on average with burn. That's a 3-6 turns game, on the draw, or 4-7 turns game on the play. Of those ~12 cards on average, 7 are in your starting hand. So basically, when u see this card, 65% of the time it does nothing, while 35% of the time it's a burn 5 for R.
Goblin grenade is far less situational and isn't played. Reckless abandon isn't either. That said, Reckless abandon as a 1-of is something i'd consider if u run 12+ creatures (i run 4 guides, 4 mancer, 3 Hellspark, 3 marauders and 4 devils).
No, how is that even remotely logical?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marke
You're not replacing Lava Spike with Vexing Demon you're replacing Hellspark Demon. This is why these arguments aren't making sense. You're not replacing cards like Lava Spike with it, so when you draw it, it wouldn't have been a lava spike anyways--it would have been a hellspark elemental.
So instead of saying: "Let me compare this to a card it's not replacing and is being run concurrently with", we should be asking "What would I rather want to top deck, play a Hellspark Elemental, or play a Vexing Demon."
You aren't replacing a burn, you're replacing a creature, with another creature that doubles as either a strictly better than lava spike burn or is the highest power per mana ratio of any red creature pretty much ever printed.
So the argument isn't "This is bad because in the land of hypotheticals it will never be what you want it to be because it's not a burn or it's not a creature.". It's "Is this creature better than another creature that we run?"
And it is. Furthermore, almost strictly--no. Hellspark Elemental and Keldon Marauders come down on turn 2 at the earliest. This card is played turn 1, it's likely either going to die for 4 damage immediately, or get removed. If it gets removed, you can drop your Goblin Guide the next turn (maybe even two) and be in the clear knowing your opponent likely has no more removal in hand. And if they do, even that's fantastic, because they kept a removal heavy hand against burn. Excuse me while I contemplate a world where 1 mana for 4 damage or 1 mana for a 4/3 is ever a card that in any situation is "not good enough to compensate for when it's really bad".
If they sac it for 4 damage, you just made, fundamentally, the strongest turn 1 play one can make in burn. Turn 2 means they're at at least 10 if they haven't fetched. If it resolves and it's not dead, turn 2 is probably going to be between 7-10 damage. If it resolves and dies, you're likely at 24 life and your other creatures can now be played -way- safer.
It gives you information about the opponent's hand without them even having to show it and is one of the most threatening turn 1 plays any deck that isn't belcher or TES can make.
Quote:
Sorcery 10
2x Browbeat
oh god...
btw. i recomend to start testing miracle burn as 1-of
2 other notes....
Devil would also work out better against combo as a turn 1 maybe turn 2 drop.
Having 3 Thunderous Wrath gives you a 28% chance of having 1 in the opening hand. Having 2 drops that to 21%. I can certainly live with 21%.
FoD will always have a spot in my deck.
who cares about its 6/6 youll never get it there, but the 4/4 is easy. FoD has won me games, and it has never lost me one.
Keldon has lost me games. It is junk, and will be tossed immediately when Vexing Devil is legal. Ive been looking for a replacement for Marauders anyway. Devil is perfect.
I would certainly argue that, had FOD been a good creature, there would be games that you would have won that you didn't. I apologize that anecdotal evidence isn't enough for me to justify running a vanilla 1 mana 1/1.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamfrightenedtoo
The turn you play him you lose 3 damage, the turn you pump him to a 2/2, you lose another 3 damage. He's such a massive tempo loss I can't possible justify running him in a deck that optimizes itself for turn 3-4 wins.
Figure of Destiny is a creature one would put in a slow sligh build or some kind of control deck that has few other turn 1 plays.
I have been running it since I first started playing burn. It's funny to think of drawing three or doing 5 as bad to me. It may not even be a logical way of thinking (I have heard every argument for and against it) but at the end of the day I really do love that card. Also I think you are right about playing the miracle burn as a 1 of. I will definitely try it.Quote:
Originally Posted by xazzax
Narrow? The point of Burn is to kill the opponent, not mess with their creatures. You might need to kill one or two creatures during the course of a game, and we already have plenty of options for doing so. If your burn is heavily focused on opposing creatures, you're no longer playing Burn; you're playing a Sligh/Zoo model, where you want to open a path for your creatures to beat through.Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueBuild
Pretty much everything you wrote in defense of T.Wrath has already been debunked. The math looks horrible on paper.Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueBuild
You say the only time it's bad is in the opener? How many cards do you see that aren't in the opener? We can even assume that you're on the play so you never draw a card without a land in play. You'll need to draw or Scry eleven cards off the deck before the average T.Wrath you see does more damage than a bolt. If Burn ever sees seven+ draw steps, it more than likely already lost. In what world does this math look good on paper?
"Sure, I'll simply mull when I see a T.Wrath." Nope, doesn't help. You go from 6 "live" cards in hand to 6 "live" cards minus however many Wraths you draw in the new hand. If the hand is playable besides T.Wrath, you just have to play it with the dead card in hand, reminding you that the bad math on paper translates to bad in-game performance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xazzax
"Sure, I'll simply run fewer in the deck." Nope, doesn't help. The link above shows why. You see fewer in your opener, but you also see fewer in your draw step. If you see one in roughly 21% of your first seven cards, you'll see one in roughly 21% of your next seven cards as well. And at that break even point, the average T.Wrath seen will have done (0+5)/2 or 2.5 damage, still less than the allegedly unusable Lava Spike.Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueBuild
Original quantitative analysis: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showt...53#post8218753
The reason Burn doesnt do better, is because everyone of you think it is a turn 3-4 win or loss.
Magic is a tempo game.
Delver, Maverick, Stonefoge are the top three decks, and are all Tempo decks. Dredge can play a long game, Reanimator can, HighTide can, Tes can....Burn cannot, because FoD is a "bad" card. FoD is there for the long haul.
you dont lose three damage when you pump FoD unless you could cast a Burn spell. I did not realize that you will perpetually have Lightning Bolts flooding your hand.
Sorry, but until you people start thinking of longer matches, Burn will continually only place when the pilot misses good decks, or a good players draws into crap hands.
I am not saying making the deck a long deck, but come on. Stop being so closed minded.
Fog stops all combat damage, Keldon Marauders can only block creature, it is also not a Shock, A Shock deals 2 damage for one red manna at instant speed. Keldon is cast for two, at creature speed..... No comparison in either direction.
Lava Spike is awesome. I cannot think of any reason not to run it. Why run 3, kinds of bolts instead of 4?
beyond a first tuen Guide, my only other favorite first turn play is Lava Spike.