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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Amazing ... after burning wishes, chrome moxen, empty the warrens and Rainbow Land Players try out Silences in ANT?
I have no idea why ANT still Claims it's own identity because of Cabal Ritual and PIF maindeck (instead wishboard) if the Rest of the deck mimicries some TES' techs here and there in a rotation.
Take that head out of the ass, would you?
Cabal Rit, PiF and Tendrils main do funny things. Like, dunno, turn the deck into more of a control one, with a better long game, more resiliency to discard and makes an aggro mentality worse because AdN actually costs 6 and you have no EtW and other fun stuff. Same thing as when you swap Bob/Tombstalker in BUG. One is a control deck, the other more of a tempo/beatdown thing. Just by changing one card.
Oh, Prosak also wrote an ANT primer: http://www.starcitygames.com/article...rm-Primer.html
Sure looks a lot like TES to me. But yeah. Gemstone Mines. Same deck, I guess.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Amazing ... after burning wishes, chrome moxen, empty the warrens and Rainbow Land Players try out Silences in ANT?
I have no idea why ANT still Claims it's own identity because of Cabal Ritual and PIF maindeck (instead wishboard) if the Rest of the deck mimicries some TES' techs here and there in a rotation.
Divert > Ignorant Bliss
Oh, that's actually explained pretty easily. If it's good (and not High Tide), I'll play it. Currently, I just don't see it. Too many Snapcaster Mages around for discard to be worth it imho, but oh well.
And Ignorant Bliss > Divert. Not only can you not Divert a Duress, but IB also acts as LED 5 - 6 if needed.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zombie
Take that head out of the ass, would you?
Cabal Rit, PiF and Tendrils main do funny things. Like, dunno, turn the deck into more of a control one, with a better long game, more resiliency to discard and makes an aggro mentality worse because AdN actually costs 6 and you have no EtW and other fun stuff. Same thing as when you swap Bob/Tombstalker in BUG. One is a control deck, the other more of a tempo/beatdown thing. Just by changing one card.
Oh, Prosak also wrote an ANT primer:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...rm-Primer.html
Sure looks a lot like TES to me. But yeah. Gemstone Mines. Same deck, I guess.
Slow riding, ranger ;)
Hit'n on me and presenting bold, false Infos wields no class. BUG Control and Team America differs much more than you try to paint in the Sky. Goofy, Bob, Tombstalker, Deed, Ponder, Dismember, Sylvan Library etc. belong in One or the other Concept ... there is no shared Space as Big as you describe. Much more than "just by changing a Card".
While TES and ANT both Play PIF in their 75, please explain me how Tendrils and Cabal Ritual define a Control Mode? Keep the fairytale about "resiliancy to discard". Both Decks have Access to PIF but TES has more buisness with the wishes compared with the preordains in ANT. Dood, I played both decks a lot and this topic is bullshit, especially because TES can win before Hymn hits which is unlikely with ANT. The only thing which was 100% true, was the resiliancy to Stifle/Wasteland ... and then came first the Burning Wish tests, then the 4th color for Abrupt Decay and finally Gemstone Mine to Support the 4th color (and Silence for the 5th Color as suggested)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mort-
Oh, that's actually explained pretty easily. If it's good (and not High Tide), I'll play it. Currently, I just don't see it. Too many Snapcaster Mages around for discard to be worth it imho, but oh well.
And Ignorant Bliss > Divert. Not only can you not Divert a Duress, but IB also acts as LED 5 - 6 if needed.
I don't think either option is good but I see a lot more Inquisitions, Thoughtseize and Hymns than Duress around atm which lead me to the conclusion that Divert would be better. I did see the interaction with infernal tutor and as an Option to dodge LED discard but the additional cost of 1R feels too high for such tricks.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Might as well chime in here:
@Zombie: Don't confuse a control role with durdling around with cantrips until you can ritual/tutor chain into a lethal tendrils. They're not the same thing. ANT is a clunky deck and has significantly more issues against discard/counter decks (i.e. Esperblade) than TES because it's so god damn slow. Ponder? Ponder? Brainstorm? Ponder? Ponder? Oops, I lose.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
Might as well chime in here:
@Zombie: Don't confuse a control role with durdling around with cantrips until you can ritual/tutor chain into a lethal tendrils. They're not the same thing. ANT is a clunky deck and has significantly more issues against discard/counter decks (i.e. Esperblade) than TES because it's so god damn slow. Ponder? Ponder? Brainstorm? Ponder? Ponder? Oops, I lose.
This has been my experience playing against the deck as well. I Cabal Therapied naming LED, he didn't play anything for the rest of the game and died.
Game two he got two bobs down, and then I pulsed them and killed him. I wasn't really sure why I wasn't dead either game.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Amazing ... after burning wishes, chrome moxen, empty the warrens and Rainbow Land Players try out Silences in ANT?
I have no idea why ANT still Claims it's own identity because of Cabal Ritual and PIF maindeck (instead wishboard) if the Rest of the deck mimicries some TES' techs here and there in a rotation.
i have yet to see a productive comment come out of you lemnaer. TES fanboy much? just because a few random kids wants to dilute their ANT decks with rainbowlands and silence doesn't mean that's what the general consensus agrees on as the ANT list. TES and ANT are different decks, with different strengths and weaknesses. get over it.
and sure while Crit and tendrils doesn't make you more of a control deck, running 8-9 discard effects MD does make you more of a control deck than TES. being able to strip your opponents hand of anything relative, even in the non blue matches makes a big deal. now im not saying ANT is a control deck or even that it has real control qualities, because that's not true. however it does do a better job of slowing down the opponent for 2-3 turns than TES does, because that's exactly what its supposed to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
Might as well chime in here:
@Zombie: Don't confuse a control role with durdling around with cantrips until you can ritual/tutor chain into a lethal tendrils. They're not the same thing. ANT is a clunky deck and has significantly more issues against discard/counter decks (i.e. Esperblade) than TES because it's so god damn slow. Ponder? Ponder? Brainstorm? Ponder? Ponder? Oops, I lose.
this is the exact reason why i don't see the fuss with prosak's list. running only 4 tutors 6 discard and 16 cantrips seems like total nonsense to me. not having enough disruption and cantriping into cantrips doesn't seem like what you want to be doing when your playing ANT. To me, it seems like every innovation he's made has been in the completely wrong direction. ANT with no BW or Grim and only 6 disruption?? what is the appeal here???
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kich867
This has been my experience playing against the deck as well. I Cabal Therapied naming LED, he didn't play anything for the rest of the game and died.
Game two he got two bobs down, and then I pulsed them and killed him. I wasn't really sure why I wasn't dead either game
im not sure why he would keep a hand with LED and no discard or cantrips or anything else to play. or why he didnt just play his LED before you could discard it if he knew he was playing against discard.
g2 theres no way hes playing both bobs at once, so he at least got 1 free card off the original bob. now if you backed up that pulse with some more discard and a fast clock i could see the game ending in your favor. but in no way was it simply. " i pulse his confidants and he loses the game"
this comment seems like bs to me, either that or the ANT player you were playing is a terrible player, or just having completely crap draws
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AlleywayJack
blah
Grammar much?
It boils down to this:
If you're playing storm -- one of the fastest decks in Legacy -- why the hell are you trying to win on turn 4/5 by assuming the "control-role" instead of just winning now.
If I have two Bobs in hand while playing ANT, I'm sure as hell running both out. If you don't, you're forcing yourself to have LED to win with any non-Burning Wish tutor.
P.S. Silence stops them for 1 turn, not slows them for 2 or 3. But guess what? Then you win, obviously. Also Duress/Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy doesn't beat a hand stacked with multiple blue permission spells.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AlleywayJack
im not sure why he would keep a hand with LED and no discard or cantrips or anything else to play. or why he didnt just play his LED before you could discard it if he knew he was playing against discard.
g2 theres no way hes playing both bobs at once, so he at least got 1 free card off the original bob. now if you backed up that pulse with some more discard and a fast clock i could see the game ending in your favor. but in no way was it simply. " i pulse his confidants and he loses the game"
this comment seems like bs to me, either that or the ANT player you were playing is a terrible player, or just having completely crap draws
He went lotus petal, cracked for brainstorm, land, and probe. I therapy on LED because he's obviously storm and beat him to death after.
Next game, he probes me, therapies me and takes my surgical, he flashed a dark rit when sloppily flipping cards around in his hand, so I hit that with my therapy, duress him, then beat him to death with Knight / DRS.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
Grammar much?
It boils down to this:
If you're playing storm -- one of the fastest decks in Legacy -- why the hell are you trying to win on turn 4/5 by assuming the "control-role" instead of just winning now.
If I have two Bobs in hand while playing ANT, I'm sure as hell running both out. If you don't, you're forcing yourself to have LED to win with any non-Burning Wish tutor.
P.S. Silence stops them for 1 turn, not slows them for 2 or 3. But guess what? Then you win, obviously. Also Duress/Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy doesn't beat a hand stacked with multiple blue permission spells.
when did i say you win turn 4/5? generally ant wins 2-3 and rarely t4+.
you play ant because you want to be consistent. i agree TES is the more powerful, and the faster deck, but its not the most resilient, consistent, or inevitable. like i keep saying. each deck has its own strengths and weaknesses. and like you said, storm is one of the fastest(and strongest) decks in legacy. whether your playing ANT or TES comes down to preference and what you feel most familiar and comfortable with. im so sick of this ANT vs TES conversation.
Quote:
If I have two Bobs in hand while playing ANT, I'm sure as hell running both out. If you don't, you're forcing yourself to have LED to win with any non-Burning Wish tutor.
im not sure what the point of this is? obviously you would play both your confidants. all i was saying is pulse alone didn't win that game.
p.s cabal therapy strips multiples out of hands, and is just fine as stopping hands full of blue permission.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Let's be clear: the disruption package of AnT is almost antihate. That is, it is a set of cards we use against the cards they will use to stop us. We are not at all interested in stopping another decks game plan unless their plan is highly disruptive to our own.
I would never say 'deck X is the control deck in the matchup' unless deck X only needs to prevent itself from losing and let its natural inevitability over the opposition take root. IE- High tide plays the control role against Belcher.
My issues with AnT as opposed to TES are three fold.
A) Active GY hate is much harder to beat for AnT
B) Sensei's divining top with a counter spell on the top of the deck is very difficult to beat
C) Snapcaster with snare/counterspell in GY is harder to beat
Most of those TES can just cast silence and not care. TES being half a turn faster is just icing
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kich867
He went lotus petal, cracked for brainstorm, land, and probe. I therapy on LED because he's obviously storm and beat him to death after.
Next game, he probes me, therapies me and takes my surgical, he flashed a dark rit when sloppily flipping cards around in his hand, so I hit that with my therapy, duress him, then beat him to death with Knight / DRS.
well this makes alot more sense. you were definitely on fire both these games ;D
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AlleywayJack
i have yet to see a productive comment come out of you lemnaer. TES fanboy much? just because a few random kid wants to dilute there ANT decks with rainbowlands and silence doesn't doesn't mean that's what the general consensus agrees on as the ANT list. TES and ANT are different decks, with defferent strengths and weaknesses. get over it.
and sure while Crit and tendrils doesn't make you more of a control deck, running 8-9 discard effects MD does make you more of a control deck than TES. being able to strip your opponents hand of anything relative, even in the non blue matches makes a big deal. now im not saying ANT is a control deck or even that it has real control qualities, because that's not true. however it does do a better job of slowing down the opponent for 2-3 turns than TES does, because thats exactly what its supposed to do.
If you are looking for productive comments, check out the last few hundreds i've done in this forum.
I was questioning the strict differing between the two decks which both develop towards each other (See Probe in TES). As I said before: I've played both approaches to storm and have made my conclusions. Feel free to disagree/argue about my analysis of both concepts development. Throwing my outlayed arguments uncontested and uncommented overboard by trying to put People into boxes like "you are a fanboy, period" is a niveau 5th graders debate about Sony Playstation vs. Microsoft Xbox.
Tbh I have never seen a successful ANT list running 9 discard spells. I rather repeat the question of RandomGestures (sorry for skipping the caps-thing) and ask about the mindset to put more than 2 Playsets of Control elements in a Combo Deck, which WILL Slow you down, brick your hand or are complete deaddraws against permament-focused-Decks. This throws up 2 questions: Why should a deck, that sculpts his Hand for 3-4 Turn and runs additional cantrips to grab protection and Combo pieces with higher reliance run even more protection than TES? Why Slow down your Deck with redundant cantrips and protection to fights things you could outrace otherways?
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
It felt good, since prior I was convinced I couldn't beat storm haha.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tammit67
Let's be clear: the disruption package of AnT is almost antihate. That is, it is a set of cards we use against the cards they will use to stop us. We are not at all interested in stopping another decks game plan unless their plan is highly disruptive to our own.
I would never say 'deck X is the control deck in the matchup' unless deck X only needs to prevent itself from losing and let its natural inevitability over the opposition take root. IE- High tide plays the control role against Belcher.
My issues with AnT as opposed to TES are three fold.
A) Active GY hate is much harder to beat for AnT
B) Sensei's divining top with a counter spell on the top of the deck is very difficult to beat
C) Snapcaster with snare/counterspell in GY is harder to beat
Most of those TES can just cast silence and not care. TES being half a turn faster is just icing
your never trying to be the control deck with ant. and its no where near being able to be a control deck. and your right, the discard functions as anti-hate generally speaking. but when you play a probe and see a shaman, or counterbalance, or literally anything that can screw you up, you can strip it, and keep yourself alive. silence can only be played after the fact. sure, i suppose you can "chant-walk"them and try to go off next turn. but you better be able to go off that turn.
as far as your issues with ANT.
1) not true, alot of the ANT lists are running 2-3 burning wish. you either grab ETW with wish, or go for AdN, or just tutor chain.
2) you got his one, silence is the clear winner. SB bounce/ abrupt decay does the trick though, or BW shattering spree/hull breach
3) easy, discard snapcaster/ win before they have 3-4 mana.
its true that silence can be amazing in certain situations. hence the reason why people play it and why TES is a great deck.
like ive said though, i dont think TES vs ANT is a productive conversation. and i think both decks are great and both thrive in different situations.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kich867
He went lotus petal, cracked for brainstorm, land, and probe. I therapy on LED because he's obviously storm and beat him to death after.
Next game, he probes me, therapies me and takes my surgical, he flashed a dark rit when sloppily flipping cards around in his hand, so I hit that with my therapy, duress him, then beat him to death with Knight / DRS.
Therapy on LED or Dark Riutal are your best outs. Wise choice. However, to me it doesn't make sense to play petal, bs, Probe in the first place. If he's looking for a Land he should Probe first; if he desperates wants to shuffle cards back, burning a petal + Brainstorm he might should have mulliganed instead (like Ad Nauseam in Hand) or wait till Turn 2 to shuffle via a follow-up fetchland. In this case he could dodge a discard spell with that Brainstorm off the 1st land. In either case: poorly played.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Therapy on LED or Dark Riutal are your best outs. Wise choice. However, to me it doesn't make sense to play petal, bs, Probe in the first place. If he's looking for a Land he should Probe first; if he desperates wants to shuffle cards back, burning a petal + Brainstorm he might should have mulliganed instead (like Ad Nauseam in Hand) or wait till Turn 2 to shuffle via a follow-up fetchland. In this case he could dodge a discard spell with that Brainstorm off the 1st land. In either case: poorly played.
Who needs Thoughtseize when you just name shit in their hand! And it flashes back!
It's super hard to play but, Therapy is definitely the best discard spell out there. I generally run it over other options, going on like 8 or 9 months experience with the card.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AlleywayJack
as far as your issues with ANT.
1) not true, alot of the ANT lists are running 2-3 burning wish. you either grab ETW with wish, or go for AdN, or just tutor chain.
2) you got his one, silence is the clear winner. SB bounce/ abrupt decay does the trick though, or BW shattering spree/hull breach
3) easy, discard snapcaster/ win before they have 3-4 mana.
I've found Grim tutor versions to be much better than the BW main versions. Having the mana to continue post ad nausem (which is notably plan 2 or 3 in this deck most of the time) is reliant on threshed cabal rituals, as is tutor chain. Often not much of a concern, but much more so than the -1 R nabbing a rite of flame with deathrite shaman does.
Against blue decks featuring top, i got enough targets for decay with beating CB that I don't often want to find another to get top too.
Discarding snapcaster is hard with 3 therapy, sometimes you just dont find it. Between UBx's discard and soft permission, it takes time to work around them to the point they often have the 3-4 mana to play with snapcaster.
Talking about TES x ANT is somewhat relevant. We get to see where we'd prefer one over the other (silence dont care about spell snare/stifle, for example) and let us tune AnT in hopefully a way to incorporate the ideas TES has been successful with. If we can understand why one 'thrives in certain situations' perhaps we can tailor the other in a way to operate fine under those conditions
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Tbh I have never seen a successful ANT list running 9 discard spells. I rather repeat the question of RandomGestures (sorry for skipping the caps-thing) and ask about the mindset to put more than 2 Playsets of Control elements in a Combo Deck, which WILL Slow you down, brick your hand or are complete deaddraws against permament-focused-Decks. This throws up 2 questions: Why should a deck, that sculpts his Hand for 3-4 Turn and runs additional cantrips to grab protection and Combo pieces with higher reliance run even more protection than TES? Why Slow down your Deck with redundant cantrips and protection to fights things you could outrace otherways?
your not trying to go off t1, so being the fastest deck isn't relevant. your trying to go off, anywhere from t2-3. and sometimes t4+. so you play around 8 disruption spells to let you go off t2-3 through countermagic. running 6 disruption can lead you into scenarios where you have everything to go off, but no disruption to protect it, and like iv previously stated i dont think running 16 cantrips to find your goods is where you want to be either. wasting time cantiping into cantips can, and will probably get you killed. you want to be consistently drawing what you need, with minimal hand sculpting. im my experience, 8-9 discard effects enables you to almost always have some to fire off before trying to combo out. and again, your not sculpting for 3-4 turns. your sculpting, generally, for 1-2 and winning anywhere from 2-4.
TES literally justcan't run as much disruption, as it dilutes the deck so much, and the only thing TES is trying to do, is be faster. but is it more consistent? how many times do you draw hands full of chrome moxs, or multiple burning wish that don't do anything, or have rite of flame and dark ritual but you no access to red mana, etc. both decks are good for different reasons, and both decks have issues regarding different aspects.
another thing, discard is just fine against permanent based decks. as far as i know Cabal therapy, IoK, and thoughtseize can still hit just about anything.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tammit67
I've found Grim tutor versions to be much better than the BW main versions. Having the mana to continue post ad nausem (which is notably plan 2 or 3 in this deck most of the time) is reliant on threshed cabal rituals, as is tutor chain. Often not much of a concern, but much more so than the -1 R nabbing a rite of flame with deathrite shaman does.
Against blue decks featuring top, i got enough targets for decay with beating CB that I don't often want to find another to get top too.
Discarding snapcaster is hard with 3 therapy, sometimes you just dont find it. Between UBx's discard and soft permission, it takes time to work around them to the point they often have the 3-4 mana to play with snapcaster.
Talking about TES x ANT is somewhat relevant. We get to see where we'd prefer one over the other (silence dont care about spell snare/stifle, for example) and let us tune AnT in hopefully a way to incorporate the ideas TES has been successful with. If we can understand why one 'thrives in certain situations' perhaps we can tailor the other in a way to operate fine under those conditions
ahh i see. you have made a few valid points!
1) your right, non threshed Crit aren't doing all that much for you, and certainly aren't going to get you tutor chaining. that being said deathrite shaman isn't usually much of a problem, iv actually never had him rob my Crits of thresh before. more intense grave hate like rest in peace is alot more difficult to play around. and usually forces you into awkward AdNs or EtW
2)top and Cb causing you problems? hull breech
3) depending on which discard you usuing. IoK, thoughtseize, cabal therapy all hit snappy
the discussion of TES vs ANT is somewhat relevant but both decks play different cards for different reasons. so you cant exactly say "this card is good in TES so it must be good in ANT" because it doesn't exactly work that way
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AlleywayJack
TES literally justcan't run as much disruption
The ANT deck that won GP Ghent played 8 distruption spells. TES plays 7. What's your point?
Grammar. Grammar. Grammar.
Also, people will take you seriously once you stop being such an asshat.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AlleywayJack
TES literally justcan't run as much disruption, as it dilutes the deck so much, and the only TES is trying to do, is be faster. but is it more consistent? how many times do you draw hands full of chrome moxs, or multiple burning wish that don't do anything, or have rite of flame and dark ritual but you no access to red mana, etc. both decks are good for different reasons, and both decks have issues regarding different aspects.
another thing, discard is just fine against permanent based decks. as far as i know Cabal therapy, IoK, and thoughtseize can still hit just about anything.
Bricking on moxen was an issue which got the playset reduced to a 3-off Time ago. Additional burning wishes can be imprinted into moxen or grab protection Out of the Sideboard (like Therapy). If i remember correctly Bryant's winning list from SCGDC had 4 gemstones, 2 Cities, a volcanic, 3 fetches and 4 Lotus Petals (aside from the chrome moxen) as initial red mana sources. Sure this doesn't mean, you have Access to Rite + Ritual Turn 1 every time.
You won't run IoK in a Storm Deck. I have to admit I was unclear in my statemen about permaments. I was aiming for problems with quick permament hate like Thalia, Teeg or Co. from the hate-perspective or swarm.dec's like Goblins, Meerfolk, Zoo and other quick Aggro which make drawn protection blanks (especially duress). This is more of an issue if you are on the draw and face Lackey, Vial, delver, etc. already on the table. Postboard you can adjust those deaddraws by switching the discard for perm. hate like Decay or Chain of Vapor, but game 1 can be a pain with all the useless discard. During my playtime additional Protection was less of an issue in TES because of "chant-walking" and chrome moxen
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Guys what do you think its the better choice tutor/maybe cantrip. Maybe its only a Meta choice? or own playstyle?
i like the TNT/ANT feat BW a lot and the UB ANT to.
Burning Wish(3off+chrome mox maybe) ( Allowed to use SB tricks to give us a empty, hatebear removal but BW goes to exil. But you find faster a Tutor when you play it)
or
Preordain 4off (another Cantrip, i like it 4off, more constistant but can be slower insteat of BW)
or
a 2-3 off preordain and 1off Grim Tutor (Well its a tutor more but cc is 3 and the life loss can be relevant and bader with Ad nauseam, for me the badest option)
What would you play? What do you like at the moest?
sry for my bad english..
Greets Dingo
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
My friend your topic is exactly part of the identity crisis this thread faces the last few pages. If you are into Burning Wish + Chrome Mox, you may visit the TES thread in the established forum. For advice concerning the UB Version with red-Splash for Past in Flames, you are right in this thread.
Because we have A LOT of experiments with the deck atm I refuse to give a clear advice for your concern. For an UB(r) Version the Choice of a Single Grim Tutor among preordains is solid. You may check the Last 10 Pages here and in the TES thread. They will answer your question.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AlleywayJack
just because a few random kids wants to dilute their ANT decks with rainbowlands and silence doesn't mean that's what the general consensus agrees on as the ANT list.
I'm a bit offended by that and actually do not see, neither through your posts, nor through the list you posted, where you come from to call other people "random kids".
So, as to not derail this thread by personal ramblings, I'd like to analyse our options of discard - which is what brought me to Silence.
We do have Inquisition of Kozilek, which doesn't hit Force of Will. So that's a big minus. Thoughtseize does hit it, but as you are aware, Divert and Missdirection are cards now. So to be honest, I'm pretty sure that running either of both is the worst thing you could do.
That leaves us with Duress and Cabal Therapy. Duress is obviously awesome, but leaves Snapcaster in their hand. Which came up pretty often while using it.. so dawww. It also is pretty much dead against Maverick. Yeah, that's not that much of a problem because the deck sunk in popularity, but at a very big event, you should think about playing it 1 or 2 rounds.
Which brings me to Cabal Therapy. It can be missdirected, but does no harm, except for wasting a spell. It's also very hard to play, but can hit everything. Problem, it can be pretty much worthless if you didn't see their hand and/or do not have the luxury to chose the only card that would hinder you. Can also easily be outplayed by Brainstorm.
All of them suck against Sensei's.
So, by pure strength, I'd rate them like CT > Duress > TS > IoK.
Feel free to add additional info I forgot.
As you might have seen from my earlier posts, I'll generally hate TES' stupid, nonsolid manabase and chose ANT over TES because of that in the past. But, there have always been weaknesses to the discard plan. Now, currently, they are at an all time high. Yet alone, when you look at the DtB section:
Mirror - Hands down, Silence will win this, easily.
Jund - Well, Silence/discard don't give too much. Main point should be to avoid the Hymn T2, the rest is a cakewalk. If they start (otp) with discard, they'll most likely hit your protection spell (as long as the kill is not imminent) to go into T2 Hymn. Nothing won here, I guess you will not be naming Hymn against an unknown opponent T1 (otp). Of course, Duress wins here, so be it.
Blade Control - I actually like this matchup. Generally, targeting their discard with yours always counts as a win for discard, but the diversity of their countermagic and protective spells makes it hard to target an unseen hand with Cabal Therapy. Also, Snapcaster Mages. Pretty easy matchup, but I do think Silence has the edge here, maybe not preboard, but postboard, when they bring in Flusterstorms, most definitely.
Miracle Control - Top, CB, yes. Discarding Counterbalance can be great, but one of their many counterspells beneath an active top can be way too destructive. No good matchup, even after boarding, still, Silence has the edge because of the obvious top action.
Team America - Against the tempo oriented version, Discard wins. You can target their discard and they usually have not that much / diverse countermagic to warrant playing Silence. Also, hitting Hymn with Duress is just fun. The opposite can be said about the control version of the deck. Diverse countermagic and Snapcaster Mages make chanting the better option. This should probably be split up, but as I get tired, I'll do it as one and count it as a tie ;D
Sneak Attack - They are usually as fast as you, so you have to not only discard their protection, but also their kill. Can also be hidden very nice in a Brainstorm. Postboard, if they bring in Leylines, you're sailing with your eyes blindfolded, so clear win for Silence. I also like the option to chant them the turn they want to kill, as it's usually stronger to try and discard something.
RUG - Yeah, this is THE deck you want to chant. You can't hit everything with discard, as they usually are holding at least Stifle and another counterspell. So this can be really a pain in the ass. Of course, plus points for discard for not playing more wasteable lands.
You see, I can understand why one would want to stay with the discard plan. It has worked, it will again, but currently - and if you can proof me wrong, please do and I will jump the discard bandwagon - the most logical decission is to adapt to the situation and play the protection spell that hits most of your opponents spells and protects your combo the best.
mort-
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
The ANT deck that won GP Ghent played 8 distruption spells. TES plays 7. What's your point?
Grammar. Grammar. Grammar.
Also, people will take you seriously once you stop being such an asshat.
You're right. I feel like i may have been coming off stronger than i intended. If i offended anyone i'm sorry!
The only point i was trying to make was in response to
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Tbh I have never seen a successful ANT list running 9 discard spells. I rather repeat the question of RandomGestures (sorry for skipping the caps-thing) and ask about the mindset to put more than 2 Playsets of Control elements in a Combo Deck, which WILL Slow you down, brick your hand or are complete deaddraws against permament-focused-Decks.
that playing 8-9 discard effects isn't necessarily a terrible thing
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
... and I gave you scenarios in which those overload of discard is harming your gameplan and TES CAN and DOES run a near equal amount of protection without bricking, something you ignore from the beginning
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AlleywayJack
TES literally just can't run as much disruption, as it dilutes the deck so much, and the only TES is trying to do, is be faster.
Hope I catched enough flames and bold, false Statements to this point, that we can continue in a civilized manner
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Well i know the answers but i was only intrestet what people here think about the BW/cantrip discussion.
It seems in the USA you see more UB ANT and in Europe more ANT with BW lists in the top 8.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
There is always a red-Splash for PIF. I don't think an UB ANT is playable
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
I mean with UB ANT the UBr ANT(PiF), but you know that;)
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pdingo
I mean with UB ANT the UBr ANT(PiF), but you know that;)
Yep, but there once was a pure UB ANT with Iggy-Loop, which I still have in mind hearing "UB ANT" :)
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Same here. That deck won the Dutch Nationals a couple of years back, and ever since the Dutch have called that deck 'Robbin ANT', after its pilot. Even though Robbin didn't actually invest the list. One of his teammates did, and reconed it wasn't optimal, so he opted to play something else and saw Robbin win the event. :eek:
It's actually pretty strong. We shouldn't discard that list too quickly.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
Same here. That deck won the Dutch Nationals a couple of years back, and ever since the Dutch have called that deck 'Robbin ANT', after its pilot. Even though Robbin didn't actually invest the list. One of his teammates did, and reconed it wasn't optimal, so he opted to play something else and saw Robbin win the event. :eek:
It's actually pretty strong. We shouldn't discard that list too quickly.
Decks are never named by/after their inventor but the one who places with it in a grand tournament. I lol'd about the last sentence, because "discard" was the issue which the deck once faced before PIF came.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AlleywayJack
TES literally justcan't run as much disruption, as it dilutes the deck so much
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Additional burning wishes can [...] grab protection Out of the Sideboard (like Therapy).
This means that TES effectively plays 11 protection spells and thats... more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
Same here. That deck won the Dutch Nationals a couple of years back, and ever since the Dutch have called that deck 'Robbin ANT', after its pilot. Even though Robbin didn't actually invest the list. One of his teammates did, and reconed it wasn't optimal, so he opted to play something else and saw Robbin win the event. :eek:
It's actually pretty strong. We shouldn't discard that list too quickly.
Are you sure it wasn't Saito with City of Traitors main and Dark Confidants in the SB?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mort-
So, by pure strength, I'd rate them like CT > Duress > TS > IoK.
I would say: Duress > CT > TS > IoK
Duress can't be misdirected. It also has a much lower chance of completely missing its mark. Therapy is great, but it's not that hot game 1 when you are blind to their hand. Therapy is better than Thoughtseize because it makes Ad Nauseam better. 2 life is a lot. With Gitaxian Probe, the deck just takes too much damage. Thoughtseize can still get Force of Will and Mindbreak Trap. Inquisition sucks at that. I've lost because I couldn't pull out a Mindbreak trap before. That was annoying...
If you encounter Maverick (and it's game 1), you should just Brainstorm away some discard.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Yep, very sure. Robbin played these 75:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual /18
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony /20
4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize /7
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs /15
Side:
1 Tropical Island
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Doomsday
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn /15
The list obviously isn't very up-to-date (no Probes, weren't printed back then), but it's a nice list.
I've tried it at a tournament, and this is by far the easiest-to-play Storm list I've ever played.
City of Traitors is bad in ANT imho. It doesn't make blue, so your lovely consistent mana base goes out the window...
Edit: agree with you on the Duress > Cabal Therapy btw. Duress always works, Therapy needs either Probe or another discard spell to work, and you don't always get those, especially with my luck. :tongue: Therapy gets better in lists that rely heavily on Empty the Warrens though. Blind Therapy on FoW. Misses. Then make 12 Goblins and sac one to get that answer they still had for your army.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jin
This means that TES effectively plays 11 protection spells and thats... more.
Are you sure it wasn't Saito with City of Traitors main and Dark Confidants in the SB?
Robbin won the dutch nationals in 2010 with UB ANT playing 2 AdN, 4 IT as business (and the DD package for CB postboard) after the mystical ban. Saito played UB ANT with Mystical still legal. I've tried City of Traitors (and Crystal Vein) quite a while back but wasn't too impressed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jin
I would say: Duress > CT > TS > IoK
Duress can't be misdirected. It also has a much lower chance of completely missing its mark. Therapy is great, but it's not that hot game 1 when you are blind to their hand. Therapy is better than Thoughtseize because it makes Ad Nauseam better. 2 life is a lot. With Gitaxian Probe, the deck just takes too much damage. Thoughtseize can still get Force of Will and Mindbreak Trap. Inquisition sucks at that. I've lost because I couldn't pull out a Mindbreak trap before. That was annoying...
If you encounter Maverick (and it's game 1), you should just Brainstorm away some discard.
It's a matter of the metagame really. If there is loads of Maverick and other hatebear decks you'll want therapy or thoughtseize. If not, duress is by far the best MD discard. I would never even consider Inquisition MD in storm.
I've been playing UBw ANT lists for over two years, with the exception of GP Ghent when UBr was clearly better positioned (which turned out correct as Timo won the event with almost an identical MD as I failed with). For Strasbourg I'm not so sure if I want to play UB(g), UBw(g) or UBr (possibly even UBr(g), but sb space would be a problem).
Chant effects are really good versus RUG and the mirror, which I expect to be two very common matchups there. They are also fine in plenty of other matchups (being semi-timewalks at worst). I don't think a list with 7 chants is correct right now though, so I'll likely play 4-5 combined with 2-3 discard spells.
IGG also isn't as terrible as some people make it out to be. I'd play it every time if playing 7 chants, since LED is still your prime accelerant. With fewer chants PiF is better though.
TES is faster, can more easily splash SB options, has wish versatility (not applicable for UBr ANT) and is better versed to make goblin tokens (UBr can once again do this fairly well).
ANT has a better manabase and better brainstorms in exchange for this. I believe it's better against discard as well (if we forget the speed for a second, which is relevant here too).
Splashing the green postboard is not a real issue since CB doesn't play wasteland usually, and if you board decays versus maverick-ish decks I board out white if I play UBw, so it's still 3 colors. If you want to play Swarms it's also fine since SnT/Reanimate decks don't play waste either and I don't even like swarms versus RUG right now.
While wish is versatile it's also a weak business spell at times.
Making goblins your main plan against some decks is really good but ANT can also board one empty without too much problems.
I don't think ANT is better than TES per sé, but I don't agree with the opposite either. It's a matter of preference to me.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jin
This means that TES effectively plays 11 protection spells and thats... more.
Actually there are 2 Cabal Therapy you can wish for in Bryant's suggested Sample list so this math lacks; even more if you want to be picky and add infernal Tutor for Protection into your calc
The Beauty lies within the wishes, morphing from buisness into Protection on demand
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
Edit: agree with you on the Duress > Cabal Therapy btw. Duress always works, Therapy needs either Probe or another discard spell to work, and you don't always get those, especially with my luck. :tongue: Therapy gets better in lists that rely heavily on Empty the Warrens though. Blind Therapy on FoW. Misses. Then make 12 Goblins and sac one to get that answer they still had for your army.
Yep. Although some people are just really good and hit every single time. I'm not sure if that's luck or skill. Either way, I don't have it, so I play Duress.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Actually there are 2 Cabal Therapy you can wish for in Bryant's suggested Sample list so this math lacks; even more if you want to be picky and add infernal Tutor for Protection into your calc
The Beauty lies within the wishes, morphing from buisness into Protection on demand
Math wasn't my strength, but seriously.. who wishes for both Cabal Therapies? LOL. Post board, I usually board in 1x Cabal Therapy, so typically I only have 1 left in the SB.
Right, Infernal Tutor getting protection is quite common for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamieW89
Robbin won the dutch nationals in 2010 with UB ANT playing 2 AdN, 4 IT as business (and the DD package for CB postboard) after the mystical ban. Saito played UB ANT with Mystical still legal. I've tried City of Traitors (and Crystal Vein) quite a while back but wasn't too impressed.
Thanks for clearing that up. Like I said, Saito DID play it first...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamieW89
It's a matter of the metagame really. If there is loads of Maverick and other hatebear decks you'll want therapy or thoughtseize. If not, duress is by far the best MD discard. I would never even consider Inquisition MD in storm.
I think if it's mostly Maverick, you should just kill them with the inherent advantage your deck has. I wouldn't mess around with Thoughtseizes...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamieW89
TES is faster, can more easily splash SB options, has wish versatility (not applicable for UBr ANT) and is better versed to make goblin tokens (UBr can once again do this fairly well).
ANT has a better manabase and better brainstorms in exchange for this. I believe it's better against discard as well (if we forget the speed for a second, which is relevant here too).
Splashing the green postboard is not a real issue since CB doesn't play wasteland usually, and if you board decays versus maverick-ish decks I board out white if I play UBw, so it's still 3 colors. If you want to play Swarms it's also fine since SnT/Reanimate decks don't play waste either and I don't even like swarms versus RUG right now.
While wish is versatile it's also a weak business spell at times.
Making goblins your main plan against some decks is really good but ANT can also board one empty without too much problems.
I don't think ANT is better than TES per sé, but I don't agree with the opposite either. It's a matter of preference to me.
Sorry, Wish is a what? I'm sorry, but Burning Wish is the closest card legacy has to Demonic Tutor. I would argue it is the best tutor in legacy (in the traditional sense. I'm not counting Doomsday here..) I also disagree with you in terms of the Discard match up. The only advantage ANT has over TES in the discard match up is you can play Cabal Ritual in to Ad Nauseam with 2 lands in play. TES would have to play Dark Ritual with 3 lands in play, or Dark Ritual + Rite of Flame. That said, TES have more outs to discard match up than ANT. TES plays all that ANT plays, plus Diminishing Returns. In this sense, I would argue that TES is better against discard than ANT. Of course, ANT fixes this problem with Dark Confidant, but that's not something TES can't play.
You also say that ANT has better mana base. Better is very subjective. You have more basics and more lands, but this is both a strength and a weakness.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
History lesson
There's no use to debate about the "ANT is resiliant to Discard" Mantra some People repeat for the last 2 years. It was a basic feature to hook up players for the mystical tutor Version in which the sentence HAD substance, but then the Tutor got banned but the phrase remained which is still worth a laugh, 'cause it was due to mystical tutor's topdeck ability in response to discard not because of ANT itself
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jin
I think if it's mostly Maverick, you should just kill them with the inherent advantage your deck has. I wouldn't mess around with Thoughtseizes...
You're still going to play protection spells, why not play those that are better against popular decks while still being solid versus blue? Turn-2 hatebear can be quite the problematic play for ANT game-1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jin
Sorry, Wish is a what? I'm sorry, but Burning Wish is the closest card legacy has to Demonic Tutor. I would argue it is the best tutor in legacy (in the traditional sense. I'm not counting Doomsday here..)
Except that it doesn't find acceleration, doesn't find Ad Nauseam and doesn't win by finding PiF/IGG without another tutor. Not saying Grim Tutor is better, since it's also pretty weak, but I find Infernal a much better tutor in the current tutor-based storm decks, despite Wish having more versatility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jin
You also say that ANT has better mana base. Better is very subjective. You have more basics and more lands, but this is both a strength and a weakness.
Maybe I should have formulated that differently, since TES' manabase obviously has advantages too (less susceptible to stifle & easier to fix colors), and Moxen over lands gives you explosiveness with the drawback of drawing multiple moxen.
I'll drop the discard argument. I like cabal ritual, the solid manabase with improved cantrips, PiF and SB options such as Confidant and Divert in those matchups, but I don't think there's much point in arguing this.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamieW89
Except that it doesn't find acceleration, doesn't find Ad Nauseam and doesn't win by finding PiF/IGG without another tutor. Not saying Grim Tutor is better, since it's also pretty weak, but I find Infernal a much better tutor in the current tutor-based storm decks, despite Wish having more versatility.
-snip-
I'll drop the discard argument. I like cabal ritual, the solid manabase with improved cantrips, PiF and SB options such as Confidant and Divert in those matchups, but I don't think there's much point in arguing this.
My local Judge and crowd aren't ok with me Running 8 Infernals so I have to use Wish in addition *shrug*
improved Sideboard Space and solid manabase ARE arguments for UB(r) ANT, no doubt. No one will question this and neither was topic for the last 3 pages. It was the "solid manabase" argument for 4c/5c ANT's (Silence, Abrupt Decay, Xantid Swarms, whatever else) which forced Rainbow Lands into the deck
