Thanks for explaining. As I said, I lost track a little while ago... what exactly made liliana so unattractive?
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Thanks for explaining. As I said, I lost track a little while ago... what exactly made liliana so unattractive?
IMO, and not everyone agrees with me, she is bad against cruise because she feeds their cruises while putting you down cards. UR specifically also has a haste creature & lots of burn, and her edict is bad since they often have 2+ creatures. Elves is also very resilient to her.
Kinda would say its the other way arround she is a way to actually attack the cruises as well, cruises gets to be played to recover instead of get ahead. Them discarding lands means less brainstorm shuffling away lands. Kind a toggle and struggle with them. There is no doubt really that UR delver is the deck to beat atm and burn is also a deck we are quite bad against so I think its time to bring out the Kor Firewalkers in the board. Lightning Bolt and Forked Lightning is currently insanly powerful against us its pretty much 2/3 of a treasure cruise when they 2for1 us with Forked lighting. Outside of counters they arent really equiped to get the firewalkers of the board, easiest creature to equip a Jitte on.
Made top 8 today with my list... In vintage. Lol. Basically 2-2'd the Swiss then got crushed by nedleeds in T8. Was fun. Debating on playing tomorrow. I still don't like my UR MU
Deadguy in vintage? Talked to a bunch of friends that went to Vintage, a lot of UR Delver there as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
After doing pretty awful yesterday....looking over my sideboard. Stupid Treasure Cruise. May have to run a few Spirits in conjunction with GY hate to battle. I feel there's going to be a TON of Delver at GP Jersey. LOL, I even considered splashing blue for Notion Thief.
I think I personally would rather play like Red Blast or something before notion thief. Less cost, and it is great as extra delver removal. I'm just jamming 3 spirit today and 5 1 CC discard. 2 Restoration Angel because why not?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkin
Went 4-1-1 in Swiss of the gen con event at Nashville. 34 players? Lost to elves in round one then win three in a row versus Miracles, oops all spells, and URW Delver. Then Drew with a teammate because it locked him and forced me into a win and in, then beat reanimator because Griselbrand not strong enough. Unfortunately lost to BUG in the top 8.
3x Spirit of the Lab was pretty solid. Restoration Angel was pretty meh. I was clogged with big drops. Time to rework the list a bit. Is nights whisper not quite good enough?
If you have them or feel like blowing $13 per copy of a pretty niche card, Auriok Champion is probably better than Firewalker. Really makes Young Pyromancer awkward, also dodges Decay and Batterskull. I'd almost rather go bigger with either a lifegain sword or something like Fiendslayer Paladin. Timely Reinforcements is always out there too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizso
Nice results. Would love to hear how you that Reanimator match went, did he reanimate Griz, you had STP, he found nothing off the draw?Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
What are you thinking with Night's Whisper? It seems like a good match with Seeker of the Way
Thanks. The game basically went: G1 I keep a 2x STP andLiliana hand. I'm on the draw. Okay a turn 2 Deathrite that I drew. He animate rreads griselbrand. He draws 7, in response I swords, he draws 7 again. He forces. Draws his second 7. Discard end step. I untap, swords again. He forces, then I liliana and he quickly scoops. Afterwards he remembers he had a daze. Lol
Game 2 I play turn 2 spirit of the Lab. He doesn't force. Casts show and tell, I put in a second spirit, he puts in Griselbrand. I cast swords on my turn, he forces to no cards in hand, I had a second swords and he scoops.
The luck was most definitely on my side, but I don't feel like the match up is really like too horrible. Also I played Kor Firewalker as a 3 of, but never really wanted to bring it in. I think it is better than champion simply because it gains more like versus burn and as a 2/2 it battles a little better
As for nights whisper, I just feel like I want another card draw spell maybe? The other option is to rework the mana base to try to fit a sylvan library or two. Both are pretty bad with a spirit out though.
If you are really looking for another 'draw' effect you could play the enchantment bob. It's not a draw. It's easy on the mana also at 2B. Arena is a draw. At this point I think I'd be on Dega over Deadguy if I were guessing 75% blue. Red also has faster tools to fight Elves and DnT (the only viable non blue deck). You get sideboard cards like Elecktrickery or Forked Bolt.
Right. Reanimator is fine. Sort of like storm. If you untap turn 2 you are probably in good shape as long as you didn't keep a ham sandwich. When they end up with like 16 cards off Griz they get flustered at discard time too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
I would say just play top, it comes down turn 1, can be cast off every land in the deck, often eats force, good synergy with Bob. Dark Tutelage as bob #5 if you really want it isn't all that bad either. Miracles would much rather see actual Bob and they hate seeing Bob. Now you can draw cards through Terminus? Gross.
I don't think Firewalker or Champion is what we want for burn. I think Timely is the place to be, at least post board, if Thalia isn't part of your burn plan. She can be, of course, but I'm just not high on her right now. I'd rather have Canonist to prevent them from doing dumb stuff like bolt, bolt, fireblast, and Canonist also kills elves and storm (while being E-tutorable) and Thalia does zip vs. elves. Further, I want to be able to cast important spells like Souls and not tax myself out of the game. Timely just seems great in so many matchups, burn is everywhere, Elves is everywhere, even Dredge.
And seriously: Aven Riftwatcher. Especially if you've got resto angel. I would not want to see that come down as the Delver player, now you're gaining 4 life and killing my Delver or fogging it for 3 turns at least. Those decks are trying to close you out fast and it extends the game in a big way, and while they're drawing Gitaxian Probes we're drawing removal and equips. Get a sword on that thing while it's alive and it gets real awkward. It plays real nice with Sword of Light & Shadow too. Aerial attacks that gain life are so good right now that I saw someone at Eternal Weekend playing Wingmate Roc in Vintage.
Maindeck REB might not be a bad choice. I've never pulled the trigger on it but I've always considered it. There's also Lightning Helix to get 'em in the burn mirror. Miracles is on a downswing at my store so I almost played Dega in a GPT the other day, in hindsight, I wish I had since I probably would've beaten the guy on UW stoneblade that ended up winning the thing. Instead I played Nic Fit and gave him a ton of islands and lost. No miracles decks in the field of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
I'm a sucker for red blasts and slaughter games... I just really like death rite. Card is bonkers. I guess death rite even without access to green is still like, fine? I'm not a huge fan of dark tutelage simply because it's a 3 drop, but maybe it's right. As for top, I don't like it. It's mana intensive and I generally tap out at least the first 3-4 turns, especially since I like getting aggressive with wasteland and vindicate.
Here's my Dega list:Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Lingering Souls
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Wasteland
4 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Badlands
1 Plateau
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Marsh Flats
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Mountain
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Bayou
2 Terminate
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
SB: 2 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Needle/Revoker
SB: 2 Timely Reinforcements (insane against UR)
-Matt
Canonist is just an other creature that gets wrecked by Searing Blood and Searing Blaze. Really I want my board cards against Burn. Firewalker attacks the burn spells thoes are the dangerous part of the burn / delver deck, its also available to block Monastery Swiftspear without geting shut down by a burn spell. I do kinda like Timely Reinforcement as well. Zealous Persecution is great against the Young Pyromancers. While I do love restoangel really isnt any strong morph dudes and blade spicer is iffy.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
Card im considering testing is actually new sorin. The lifelink and power to the whole team is gonna give a huge life boost or they have to spend 5+ points of damage to get the sorin of the board.
That looks like a great list to me with a lot of great card choices. I might have to try that out sometime.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I can't quite decide about Lingering Souls. It seems so good when it's good, but that's so rare...
I guess Miracles and Delver decks hate it? Maybe Jund too?
I like souls a lot, but it can be difficult to keep in a list for me anymore. It flies, forms a good clock by itself and is ridiculous with equips, but best of all it screws up planeswalkers and makes anyone without -1/-1 effects cringe.
I took it out as it was cramping my 3-drops in Junk (with KotR), but it's a good value card; even good against S&T and Reanimator; depending on how they went off.
Lingering Souls is one of the best cards in the deck imo. It is our best tool against delver, miracles, and most any other deck attempting to out attrition us. It is obviously slow against combo, but that's at worse case. It also synergizes so well with and against liliana. And it is nigh uncounterable. I had a delver opponent watch me tap three mana, he grabs two cards from his hand, then when he sees I was casting souls, he gives a frustrated look andallows it.
More Hero of Bladehold. lol. I did seriously think about putting another Hero in my deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by razvan
Lingering Souls is still pretty darn good. It's still basically 2 cards in 1. 4 Flying dudes. It's still good in the post Cruise meta.
That would work if you face me every round. You don't even need to care as long as you keep a hand with a Hero :P Haha.
Tried this deck online for a few hours and it works just great. It hurts me a lot cause I can hardly recognize the DGA in it. Good list.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
If there's anything you think it needs, PM me or post in the Team Italia thread :)
-Matt
I think Hero is seriously underrated. I'm not sold on souls (say that 10x fast). Forked bolt and burn are big red flags in the meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkin
Forked bolt still only trades with half of souls. And that is one less forked bolt going to your spirit/Bob/stoneforge.
For sure. I still like Souls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Did some testing at a mini-legacy tournament. Storm, UB Tezzeret, death and taxes and RUW Delver. Only loss was to D&T in a close 3 games.
LOL. I want to test against Treasure Cruise and only one deck could have had it (he has Dig Through Time). Relic was very good against one of the Delve cards. Had Relic early and had him on no cards in the yard for a long time. Beat Storm even when he makes 10 goblins turn 1...although he did make a big play mistake...
So he cast duress and takes the only card, sword of fire and ice he's also able to empty for 10, also emptying his hand (had to use LED). I have Deathrite, Spirit of the Labyrinth and 2 Mystics. So he makes his dudes. I draw a land and play Deathrite. He attacks, I block 1 Goblin and he cast another Duress. Strange. He whiffs. I cast Stoneforge and get Batterskull, and I am able to stabilize. If he had kept the duress for the tutored Batterskull, I would have lost.
Beat UB Tezzeret in 3. Leyline of the Void main. I really like Tezzeret the Seeker for the tutor for Helm and win, which he does game 1. Game 2 he tutors into play an Ensnaring Bridge with Tezzeret the Seeker. I have a Revoker out naming the other Tezzeret lol. But I have Vindicate, killing the Bridge and enables me to attack and kill Tezzeret. Oh, Vindicate I can't quit you.
Tried out a Spirit. Meh. My RUW opponent did make the uber mistake of brainstorming with Spirit already out. Oops. Yeah, he didn't win that game. I'd really like to add another Gaddock Teeg to the sideboard but I like my manabase the way it is right now. 4 Basics is awesome. My Delver opponent didn't play any and I was able to waste him out. Even cutting another Swamp for a 2nd Bayou....I don't know. Being fairly immune to wasteland is appealing to me.
Bile Blight experiment may be over. Either I don't see it or it's just a 1 for 1 removal spell. I'm afraid it would be the same if I get my hands on a Malicious Affliction.
And Hero won me a couple of games. One vs Storm and the other vs. UB Tezzeret.
Are you guys more fond of Council's Judgment, Vindicate, or Maelstrom Pulse in the current metagame? My meta has had tin fins, miracles, bant, and UR delver in it.
I play with 2 Vindicate and a Council's Judgment. I don't play Pulse since my manabase can't handle green that well.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
As far as playability is concerned, they are all fairly similar. If that is your meta, I'd give a slight edge to Pulse since you can possibly 2 for 1, taking out 2 Delvers or wiping out a bunch of Elemental tokens. Against Tin Fins, I'd say Vindicate is probably the best, since you can take out a land.
I have been playing team Italia so splash red for bolt and reb and lavamancer and I switched my bile blights for scouring sands and damn has it been a blow out
Given the prevalence of Treasure Cruise and Young Pyromancer, I feel like Liliana of the Veil and Lingering Souls have lost a lot of value. Cutting them has opened up a lot of slots and a lot of design space in the deck.
My only real conundrum now revolves around equipment: has anyone been playing against U/R Delver without Lingering Souls? I can't tell if Sword of Fire and Ice is worthwhile without Lingering Souls. Can anyone weight in?
I think Lingering Souls is still great against the YP/TC decks. It evades their attackers, blocks their Delver, gives you 4 bodies off one card to keep up with Pyromancer.
The other card besides Liliana that I find lackluster at the moment is Dark Confidant. It's 1 toughness and even if it does live it does damage to you. However it is the best card advantage engine we have in these colors.
Zealous Persecution is a solid replacement for Liliana IMO.
Given this shell:
15-16 creatures (4 DRS, 4 SFM, 4 Bob, 3-4 Souls)
15 other (4 Seize, 4 STP, 3 equips, 0-2 Vindicate/other removal, 0-2 IoK)
gives you about 7 cards to play with. What we need are value cards that do more than one thing since we can't keep up with the raw advantage of TC.
My thought right now is at maindecking a couple of Chains of Mephistopheles. Ponder, Brainstorm, cruise and Probe is a mainstay in so many blue shells now, chains and spirit cuts of about 1/4 of opponents deck. Many of them dont have a way to get the chain of the board once it has landed on the board.
Delver decks run pretty much only 12 threats atm, cards like extirpate and surgical get alot of power against such decks just like it did against old 8-threats teamamerica. Where you could remove all their killing condition with extracting, Tarmo, Tombstalker or Underground Sea.
Maindeck zealous is pretty solid right now.
I'm just running spirit. And SOFAI is insane against the UR decks. You get to walk right past their men while protecting your man from bolt.
Went 3-1 at my local. Weird match ups. Beat kid on his all common deck in his first tournament, lost to punishing nic fit, Beat burn (3x Gerard Verdict in the board lol), then beat UR Delverstill. Played no Sorin, 3 Spirit of the Lab, 2 Restoration Angel and a stillmoon. Probably terrible.
I'm thinking of trying out a Bob-less version. Blasphemy I know. Wanna try out some delve stuff like Tombstalker and Murderous Cuts or something. It's probably completely awful. My confidence in the deck has been restored though.
Played at the Syracuse weekly last night and managed to go 3-1 with my only loss to Belcher in 3(seriously?) with this brew that I threw together in 5 minutes. Until I trade my Lotus for blue duals, this is basically my only deck haha. Deck felt good 2-0' ing reanimator, D&T and LED Dredge. Missed top 4 playoffs on a bad tie breaker.
2 Dark Confidant
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vindicate
2 Council's Judgment
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Isolated Chapel
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Plains
3 Swamp
The list actually felt quite strong, and I loved the maindeck Relics. Definitely the reason I was able to 2-0 dredge and Reanimator. Zealous won me a game against Belcher, and wrecked D&T. Vampire Nighthawk is actually pretty ridiculous against a non red deck as is the Crusader, but I was lucky enough to dodge the U/R Delver lists floating around. Obviously this is a pile, but it felt pretty strong!
Sticking an equipment can, on its own, really beat a lot of the top decks. As a result, they often attack that part of the deck. I'm considering Argivian Find (http://magiccards.info/wl/en/122.html) out of the sideboard for Burn based or Delver based matchups. Yes, it's silly, but those Smash to Smithereens, Wear/Tears, etc are everywhere. Thoughts?
That's some serious old-school Parfait-esque tech. I like it. It's bank against Thoughtseize the turn after you SFM. Bob is getting worse, Electrickery is a card played in UR Delver for the mirror, D&T, and Affinity among others, and can really just wipe the board here. It devalues Lingering Souls as well, killing 1/2 the card for 1R, + any additional value, all at instant speed. Yes, Zealous Persecution. They just do it when you are tapped out, so that's fairly useless, plus Countermagic is a thing. Burn is popular enough in general that Wear/Tear and Smash to Smithereens become very valuable games 2 and 3, and UR Delver has no outs to Batterskull or Sword of Fire and Ice other than this as well. Paired with the decrease in SCM due to the Delve mechanic in general, I feel that if you can "Find" either/or back to relevancy, I believe you will have a really good chance at winning. Souls is still good, but no one can argue it's losing ground. I also like Hero, but 4 is steep in some matchups, and then it will occasionally just eat a StP. It's good, and I like what (is it Wilkin?) does, with the Chrome Moxen. I think the ability to drop it on turn 3 is awesome and should be considered, especially if debating Hero's inclusion as more than just a one-of.
-ABC
I don't hate it? I mean it's not unreasonable, just not amazing. The problem is it is fairly situational. I have admittedly given some thought to buried ruin. Against burn, trying to play and equip a weapon, getting it destroyed, then trying it again is probably way too slow. Especially if you are on the Thalia plan. I think BUG is the deck I'm most worried about since they can hit our weapons in game one with decay. I think a better plan is to simply run more weapons. That's why I liked running a second sword of X&Y in the board.
Ugh I'm terrified of BUG. I honestly had 2 Mirran Crusader in the Argivian Find slot at one point. Still didn't win me jack shit. Spirit of the Labyrinth hurts them, but they're full of Golgari Charm and Toxic Deluge anyways. Did you have anything in particular you use against BUG?Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
I feel there are more null rods out there than before... I don't run another sword in the board. Can't find the room and running a jitte or SOFI with no dudes already sucks....no need to have a third card with nothing to equip to. IMHOQuote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
I used to run 2 Hero but I found it too clunky. I had the uncanny knack of having both in hand too early. I find one is ok.
Tested last Friday. 4-0. Beat Grixis Delver. UR Delver. BUG Delver. Maverick. Highlight was he had a Swiftspear and a Young Pyromancer on board (UR Delver). I had 4 Lingering Soul tokens and a Hero of Bladehold. Cast Zealous Persecution pre-combat to stop the potential token shenanigans. Swing for 20 damage via 4 Spirits at 3/2, 1 Hero at 4/5, 2 Soldiers at 2/1. lol. That's about as close to a Delver as you are going to see me play.
TELL US ABOUT BEATING BUG. I can't beat the deck to save my life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkin
Also, are you guys playing any dedicated graveyard hate in your sideboards?