He scouted one dredge deck, and that was all that showed up.
Excellent metagaming, not failure to prepare.
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He scouted one dredge deck, and that was all that showed up.
Excellent metagaming, not failure to prepare.
This thread needs MOAR Landstill, like this:
http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/...Landstill2.png
Landstill is still like my favorite Legacy deck. It has good matchups across many decks, but sometimes runs into awfully bad ones, depending on the decklist, one landstill pilot with his list can have an amazing matchup against something while another list would have a horrendous matchup against the same opponent. In the following list, the maindeck is designed to have good matchups against Bant NO, Zoo, Junk, Goblins, TES combo with less emphasis against Merfolks (still decent but not the primary goal of the deck since it's not worth bothering the Merfolks matchup when they're just being retarded with their cards.)
This has been the list that I've been testing to great success. Surprisingly, my Junk matchup has been a little more than 50:50 (used to be a matchup where it was problematic)
I've been loving the list so far. It's a list based off Wafo Tapa's stable mana configuration list. 1 Crucible is definitely needed because of how a lot of games end up turning out: Your factories in yard, they've answered 4 Planeswalkers, Crucible gets in there, or it's just a great card with Top/Jace by itself.
UWb Landstill
4/08/2011
24 Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
2 Island
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
11 Draw/Tutor
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish
10 Removal
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
1 Humility
11 Permission
3 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
5 Advantage
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds
15 Sideboard
2 Engineered Plague
2 Perish
2 Peacekeeper
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Extirpate
2 Negate
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Path to Exile
1 Enlightened Tutor
Postboard, you get a lot of good options with the current SB configuration:
+2 EPlague, with 2 WoG against Gobs/Elves/Thopters/Elspeth Soldiers/faster WoG against Belcher's EtW (don't bother with EPlague against Merfolks)
+2 Perish, with 2 WoG, 1 Humility against GWx, Green decks, Progenitus
+2 Peacekeeper, with 2 WoG, 1 Humility against Merfolks/Emrakul
+2 Negate, +2 Canonist, +1 Extirpate against combo/Stax/Enchantress
+2 Relic, +1 Extirpate on Dredge/Loam decks.
I would love to try cutting Wishes, and run +1 ETutor and +1 SDT instead. A lot of times, CWish is grabbing ETutor into SDT, so I'm quite inclined to say that I would love ot run 3 tops in this list. The fact that most mid-range decks (Countertop, Junk, and many other decks with Tops e.g. Meandeck MUD) goes to show how one player dominates the board when he has top while the other doesn't. I'll have to test it out but I've been finding myself Etutoring Top and winning more games than ETutoring for Standstills.
I def like your list Metal worker, and I must say that playmat is about the sexiest thing I have ever seen!
1 of those rainforests should be a marsh flats.
And those 2 negates and 1 canonist could be turned into 3 counterbalances (supported by e.t.) making your combo mu slightly better, well possibly, but those cbs are also golden against control.
Yeah Klaus I agree with that change actually. I have been wanting to fit the 3rd Top in the MD so that SB choice would make sense. My current configuration is still +2 Negate, +2 Canonist, which I will cut down to +1 Negate, +3 Counterbalance. In the MD, I've been thinking of dropping the 3rd Counterspell for the 3rd Top (which should dig into more counterspells essentially when having an early Top).
And if people start asking: "why not play 3 Counterbalance MD when playing 3 Tops?" I'm going to say simply there's not enough space to make room for them. If they ask "but Countertop beats the format", and I will answer again that's not the case, but countertop is really good against matchups where it's really good at (as you pointed out Klaus, combo/burn/control etc). Its funny because quite a number of testings against countertop, they end up losing to hard counters and to a countered top. If it does resolve, it's really problematic, and you have to resolve EE (which actually takes some effort these days). But all in all, a maindeck of hard counters, sweepers, more dense removal works great in the current meta that Counterbalance is running into a little trouble.
It's funny because on paper, Counterbalance is ages better than Spell Snare when playing with Tops, but the situation itself isn't as simple. Counterbalance is not going to stop a Hymn with a blind flip (you play Counterbalance on turn 2). You will end up losing cards or a Goyf resolves, and if you don't have Top paired up, it does nothing except to have the potential to counter. The potential to counter shit is important, but at the same time, there's the potential it whiffs on a blind flip, and in those scenarios where the spell HAS to be countered, then Spell Snare functions better. I do like Countertop in Landstill, but I think this list has been a little more successful since it is faster.
Marsh Flats make sense, although I've tried that before. I usually want to fetch UU more than WW when playing this deck (Counterspells/Brainstorms/Snare etc). I never fetch my 2nd white unless I'm planning to drop an Elspeth/WoG which against most aggro decks actually don't happen on turn 4 (since I'm still controlling the board with other spells at that point).
@god_campbell thanks! And yes, this has been a pretty nice list. Snares and Tops are the reason why it's quite stable (Wafo Tapa ran 3 Snare, 2 Tops, 3 Jace, 2 Elspeth, 2 WoG, 2 Humility, 4 counterspell, 3 EE, 4 Standstill, 4 StP). I felt that the lone Crucible was much more powerful than the 3rd Jace (laugh you will but in games where it matters it's really good :) Jace is argubly quite bad in certain matchups e.g. Goblins/Merfolks, he's good in Merfolks only if you support him with something like peacekeeper/Moat).
If you want your secondary fetch to be able to find basic Islands, at least run Polluted Delta. Rainforest can't find Scrubland, and the W+off color dual is one I fetch often in the face of mana disruption.
Slightly off topic: I won a GPT for RI with 4c WishStill a week before last Sunday. The report will hopefully be published within the next few days.
With more people playing more 3 cc and 4 cc bomb, why would landstill play spell snare instead of spell pierce?
Because Spell Snare is one of the best counter spells ever made, for landstill the classical choice is 4 Fow, 3-4 Counterspell and 3 Snare. I'd play Pierce instead of Snare only in Combo/Control warped metagames.Quote:
Originally Posted by hyc8028
Ya, I really like Wafo's approach to landstill, and last summer I had a similar list that did me well in a few tourney, and I think it's high time I break that list out again me thinks.
On another note, with the GP coming up, perhaps it would be a good idea for everyone to turn their thoughts on tuning a list to fight the GP metagame? there is an outside shot Ill be able to make it, so Ill be happy to contribute.
I liked your list very much! The only change i suggest is cutting 1 CS for 1 Path to exile! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalwalker
@Shawn: Mistys was no problem until I added 1 Scrubland (which I forgot to consider). Originally, I only ran 2 Underground Sea and Mistys, being able to bluff Bant on the play would be a slight plus. can't wait to see your report. It's sad the Landstill thread on the source is just dead. MTGS is quite lively there although I don't post there often.
@Hyc8028: You are absolutely correct with the format shifting from the once 1-2cmc centric metagame. That is answered with 4 Counterspells, not with 3 Spell Snares. If the format was 2 cmc heavy, I would be playing a 3/4 Counterspell/Snare mix instead. I've only tested limited games last Saturday (specifically Junk). Snare is great against them, it matches their plays on both the play and on the draw. If I were to think of various decks in the format, there's still a ton of cards that Snare hits:
- Countertop
- Bant/Junk/Zoo
- Merfolks (yes it still hits stuff even if Vial is in play, at least you offset their tempo by a turn)
- TES/ANT Tutors
- Chalice decks
@GoldenCid: What I realized that the 4th Counterspell is indeed a little unnecessary at times (well it's never a bad card, but would I prefer another slot in its place that's what I mean). I answer the 3-4cmc bomb-centric format with WoG/Humility, and I think I can afford to cut down on 1 Counterspell. However, I was planning to play the 3rd Top over the 4th Counterspell instead of a PtE. I haven't had too much trouble with aggro (Merfolk is the only exception which needs postboard help with Peacekeeper + Path). But I've been Cunning Wishing into ETutor Top many times to win games. Top is fantastic against mid-range or slower decks, and whichever deck gets a Top and the other person doesn't, the player with Top usually wins.
I'll have to test that configuration up sometime, but I'm going ahead with that build for this Saturday. I think last Saturday maybe a fluke I had a string of decent Junk runs. Maybe my FoWs get more power when I FoW placing on the FoW image on my mat, and when I put StP on the StP art and put Jace in the middle :P
UW(x) Landstill
4/11/2011
24 Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
2 Island
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
12 Draw/Tutor
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish
10 Removal
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
1 Humility
10 Permission
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
5 Wincon/Advantage
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds
15 Sideboard
2 Engineered Plague
2 Perish
2 Peacekeeper
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Extirpate
1 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
1 Enlightened Tutor
EDIT: I wanted to point out that Elspeth is a fucking beast. I love her more than Jace in this deck. Jace is good when you are in a winning or slightly advantageous position. Elspeth is good if you are in a winning or slightly advantageous position AND if you are in a bad position.
@Metalwalker:
That Marshflats is not neccessarily meant to fetch Plains #2 but increase the chance to be able to fetch Plains #1 after you having fetched for UU.
Mmmm...that counterspell in the side looks awful...if it were pierce...ok but counterspell?
It 'looks' awful but it's a Korean Counterspell :p
Jokes aside, it was originally 1 Negate, which 'looks' decent in wishbuilds. But with the pretty solid manabase, Counterspell would be better since I've cut down to 3 maindeck. I'll be taking this list for this saturday, bored of losing to Junk with Steel Stompy over and over again :P
Yeah Klaus, I got you there, I'll think about how my lines of play are, and whether I need the 5th fetchland for white (most likely). Thanks for the Counterbalance suggestion (and partially to my desire to play with 3 Tops based on previous testings that a lot of games boil down to Topwars i.e. whether my opponent or I have a Top in play). The CB is definitely what I was missing out since 3 Counterbalance is much stronger than 2 Canonist + 1 Negate in my originally list when their purpose were to deal with: combo/enchantress primarily, and Counterbalance has the added benefit to beat other random decks e.g. burn/control-mirrors.
A postoard CB list with the list posted above against combo/control/enchantress would look something like this:
UW(x) Landstill
4/11/2011
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
2 Island
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish (3cmc slot, fetches Extirpate/ETutor when needed in this matchup)
2 Relic of Progenitus (could be stP/EE depending on combo/control matchup)
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds
0CMC: 26
1CMC: 14
2CMC: 10
3CMC: 3
4CMC: 8
Still a little low on the 2cmc curve (ideally 12+) but otherwise really solid transition against the matchup where Counterbalance matters (and no, Counterbalance isn't good in majority of matchups, at least not in a Landstill shell, but it's REALLY good against the matchups where it matters). Thanks for the tweak again! The last time I fiddled with Counterbalance was in the maindeck, liked it, but didn't like the playstyle, and didn't like playing Countertop against matchups where Landstill was just simply better i.e. aggro, so I abandoned it and somehow only forced myself to think of only playing Counterbalance in the maindeck or not, and didn't think of it as a sideboard slot.
Report!
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...t%2A-Iowa-City
(Two sentences were accidentally cut by the editors, the maindeck and part of the sideboard wasn't posted, and there are some letters capitalized that I didn't make that way in the submitted version, please ignore that)
Nice report Shawn. I know you pilot the deck correctly but the manabase seems a little fragile (can't help since it's 4c Landstill with colorless sources). I know for most part knowing how to fetch lands at the right time is wasteland resistant, but you cannot avoid the hands where you draw no fetches and duals/factories, and the 4c manabase to support 3 deed looks a little unstable if such situations arise.
Anyway, good performance, my question for you and everyone reading is this:
How consistently can you cast Pernicious Deed on turn 3 with the current manabase? I am guessing it's tought to get Deed online turn 3 and would most probably come online on turn 4. At which turns were you popping Deeds? Do you usually play a turn 4 Deed popping it on turn 5 while using early counters/removal to stabilize?
The main point I'm raising is: UGb Jacestill has the benefit on supporting Deed with their natural manabase, while UWx has to go into effort to strain the manabase to play Deed. Deed is incredibly powerful so I have no objections to your list, the same way many UGb Jacestill lists are trying to squeeze 4 StP because it's StP andnothing beats StP. The point I'm trying to bring across is this: if most games involve you playing Deed on turn 4 or later and blowing it up later when the time is right, utilizing counters/removal to stabilize before you get deed online, can we explore the option for UWx landstill to play Nevinryal's Disk over Deed in UWx build? Disk was explored and played in the past for a few iterations, but was pushed out whe Zoo/Merfolk became more popular and were too fast for Disk. But the overall speed of Deed and Disk are fairly comparable (in UWx lists where manabases have some issues to support Deed, in UGb lists, Deed is unquestionably consistently faster than Disk, but in UWx I think it's not consistently faster than Disk given that Disk is colorless!)
The only benefit Deed has over Disk is it comes in a turn faster (which was my counterpoint that the UWx manabase runs into issue supporting a 4-color manabase while playing with manlands/wastelands/ruins). Deed has another benefit at being incredible late-game i.e. you play it and activate it on the same turn when you have mana.
However, I think Disk maybe a viable option to explore again in today's meta. Just like Wrath is good again in Landstill (a universal out to everything), Disk answers everything, including Affinity/Stax/Enchantress/Stompy etc. It's also a good answer to Show and Tell the same way Humility is: you SHow them your Disk and let them scoop it up. For the weekend I'm testing 1 Disk over the 2nd Wrath in the list I posted earlier. I'm not sure if I'm going to cut Cunning Wish yet, I've played with them for ages, but I'm not sure if -2 Cunning Wish, +1 ETutor, +3rd Jace gives the deck a lot more raw power than 2 Cunning Wish.
Thoughts?
The manabase is more inconsistent than the UWx ones I run, I definitely admit that; with UWx I'm not afraid of mana disruption unless they nut draw you with multiple Wastes and Stifles, but the mana is sometimes a concern with 4c. The Scrubland is really handy as it allows W turn one, GB on t3, and WW on turn four if needed, but with only one WW spell in the main it doesn't come up that often. Wastelands, Sinkholes, and Vindicates are definitely much less scary than Stifles with that manabase, (and with the UW one as well) since against B/x decks I generally play out my fetches first, and don't crack them unless absolutely need to. Also, with a Wasteland they are setting themselves back a land as well, unlike Stifle. Against Wastes, I almost exclusively find duals with 4C, whereas I usually find duals with UW, but if I can find basics I will.
There were a few games I had to mulligan because of mana issues, but they were unkeepable anyway with the spells I had.
The order of playing out lands really depends on the hand, sometimes you need to bait out Wastelands with Tundras to protect your lands that allow you to cast Deed, and sometimes you have a hand with STP, EE, and some other spells so you can use Trops and Seas as bait.
I need to try out a list with Disk again, I won a small tournament last summer with Disks in my Landstill list, and I have them in the sideboard in my UW build. The manabase for UWx becomes even better when you cut some Wogs for Disk, as the need for WW on turn four is decreased. I will have to try it out again. I feel Deed is much more powerful, as it can become active the turn it's cast, and comes active turn four. Being able to Wish into Tutor into Deed and blow it up turn 5 is very nice, which isn't possible with Disk. However, Disk is also better against random stuff like Stifle, Tombstalker, Emrakrul, and annoying stuff like Blood Moon, and it doesn't strain the manabase nearly as much. The ability to have an untapped Disk or Deed on the board with Jace in play when they have 0 creatures is insanely powerful, as opposed to sorcery-based sweepers.
If I were to cut green, I'd remove the Trops and a Sea for a Tundra, and two more basics and another land-maybe a Glacial Fortress. Then, -3 Deed +2 Disk, and a singleton Elspeth or another EE. Ruins is an option with those changes, but I ran it in a version with 3 Disk, 3 EE and I didn't feel it was needed. Then again, if I were to run Wish, Disk is probably not necessary with a Fracturing Gust in the board.
Yeah you got my point on the manabase. I've always liked Deed, but I don't have the balls or confidence like you and MasterShake to go about doing so. A lot of the resiliency in manabase in 4c Landstill is highly dependent on playskill i.e. knowing what to fetch, but outside of the skill level, there's that fundamental risk on just drawing the no-fetchlands and putting games in risks. It's like playing UWx landstill with Tapo-manabase but still drawing into hands with no-fetchlands and no-basics then your opponents go apeshit on the Wastelands. Shit happens, but it's all to reduce any chance your opponents get at attacking your manabase.
From your replies, I think I'll go ahead and test out Disk this weekend. What I was mainly trying to find out, since I have not done testing with Deeds outside of Ugb Landstill (have not tested 4c Landstill), is to find out from you who tested it, what were the turns you were usually resolving Deed and blowing it up. If the Deed is usually flipped on turn 5, I think Disk might be worth it, for similar reasons WoG was initially not played because Firespout was a mana cheaper and was able to answer the format at the time. However, with so many decks with so many different creatures: emrakul/progenitus/Junk/Gobs/Merfolks/Tombstalkers, Firespout has been outclassed recently. WoG is also much better now if you opt for a stronger manabase, which gives you some resiliency against decks that prey on weak manabases. I think the analogy of Disk v.s. Deed is similar to Firespout v.s. Wrath. Disk is fundamentally a turn slower, but it answers everything (and has recursion, but that's win-more).
I'll let you know how that testing goes. I don't agree with swapping 2 Wrath for 2 Disk. The speed still matters. In my maindeck, I've swapped out 2 WoG, 1 Humility to a 1/1/1 WoG/disk/Humility split with the 2nd WoG in the board. I would love a 2/1/1 split which I feel is superb (4 4cmc 'sweepers') but I have no space maindeck without cutting draw/counter/planeswalkers. Also I think 4 sweepers maybe a little too much making your game 1 weaker against non-aggro decks. Disk is a slower WoG (a little more flexible) but can be tutored and is great against the random matchups where WoG is dead. It's also very nice against Show and Tell :P
On another note, I always debate on wish v.s. wishless, but always end up playing wishbuilds. What are the main strengths of the wishless builds? Last night I browsed through multiple UWx lists on deckbase.net and other deck databases and notice that the recent placing top 4 lists do not play Wish. Am I too biased with the flexibility that Wish gives or can you reconfirm that my expectations of Wish in Landstill is strong. I always play with Wishbuilds (85% of the time) so I can't really comment on non-wish builds although they seem to be placing.
It has been forever since I've posted, but this was interesting to me as I always end up playing wishless builds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalwalker
Mainly this was because of how slow Wish is, but apparently that has not been an issue for yourself?
The main strength of the non-wish builds is that they are able to pack a real sideboard.
Wish is indeed a slow card, but you have to take into account the Wishbuilds usually run a heavier countersuite and early game spell to support the early game, that turns Wish from being a slow tutor, to being a powerful trump card when you've dealt the early game. I'm not sure what your Wishless build look like, but I've been on the fence in wonderin if I can just play with a straightforward Wishless build.
My only issue with Wish is: It is slow and worthless in matchups where it's, you know it, slow!! E.g. Combo, Goblins, Dredge are example where Wish is very weak. Everything else, Wish has been great, or maybe I've been deluded it's been great (since I've been primarily playing Wishbuilds). i guess one thing to note that I almost exclusively fetch Etutor and Extirpate, even much more than Path to Exile in my Wishbuild, which is why I was wondering if I should just swap the Wish for the ETutor maindeck and streamline the sideboard.
I actually like the Wish version against Dredge and combo, if you run Rav and MB Trap side. Ravenous Trap is your only hope to win game one against Dredge, and coupled with other hate it makes games two and three much better compared to Wishless versions I've tested (3 Relics or Crypts by themselves are generally not enough to beat Dredge, and I hate wasting more space in the side). After side, I have 6 anti graveyard cards in the form of Extirpate, Relic, Tutor, and the three Wish into Ravenous Trap.
Wish into Mindbreak Trap is surprisingly effective against TES. TES generally doesn't combo off in the early turns against you for several reasons, the main one being they don't want to unless they nut draw you with a fast hand + protection; (and they don't need to go off early, because of our glacial clock) they don't want to go all in unprotected on something like Wish+LED or Infernal+LED. The matchup is still unfavorable if the storm player has any sort of intelligence, but MBT helps a lot.
People argue Wish cards take up slots from other cards, but if a couple of those cards were put in to fight those specific decks such as TES or Dredge, (let's say 2 Relics instead of 1 Relic, 1 Rav Trap, or 3 Canonist instead of 2 and a MBTrap) you're generally better off doing the split, since Wish allows you to run "more" copies of hate cards in the form of hate plus 2 or 3 Wish, while gaining access to them game one.
I'd Love try Vindicate in the deck as a 2 of. Some time ago i'd tried it and i liked. Nowadays does it worth?
@Shawn: I agree with you, because Wish has allowed me to beat a ton of decks when it resolves. However, being primarily a wishstill player, I'm trying to look outside the box and think if those wins were the illusions of "I win this tough matchup with wish, therefore Wish is good". The truth is, Wish is still fundamentally a turn behind decks like Dredge/combo. The wins created by Wish against those decks maybe giving a false sense of security against those decks when in fact Wish may not be ideal against those decks. Personally, I keep Wishes against TES/combo, but I still always feel fearful when I do, because even if I draw a hand of FoW, they can almost always go turn 1 Duress, turn 2 win if they need to. I feel that against matchups like Dredge/combo, Wish is good because we have other cards pairing it up to slow them down to turn 3. Did Wish really win those matchups for us? Or was it the card that was wished for winning those matchups? Would it have been better to just play a straightforward sideboard e.g. 2 or more copies of the spell you're wishing for, which technically removes the belief that Wish increases the chances you draw such a spell. I have no doubt Wish is great game 1. And I still like Wishbuilds, but I'm just trying to think whether Wish was mainly successful because opposing decks were fundamentally slower, which increases its power.
@Vindicate:
It's a great card and was successful. I think it'll continue to be successful but maybe not optimal unless you have a list that plays it optimally e.g. Speedstill (which in some sense plays like Tempo decks but without creatures lol).
I mean Vindicate is successful in Junk, but that doesn't translate to being as successful inLandstill. Fundamentally, you want to avoid tapping out on your turns unless you have mana open. Junk can afford tapping out because the nature of the deck is discard, and pick off anything on the board and win with creatures, but for Landstill, your main stability comes from countering spells, and at the right time sneak your win-condition and win.
Vindicate is just very flexible, and that's its biggest strength. Currently I'm dropping the 4th color in my UWx build and give up on fetching 4 colors against opposing Jaces. I figured that I'll let Factories do the work. If you play Vindicate, that's another big strength to hit Planeswalkers without playing 4 colors. I'll post a report after today's tourney, bringing the old Landstill back again. Hopefully I don't draw double factories in opening hand too often.
Vindicate demands tapping as well as EE. That was my reasoning. Vindicates doesn't ask us a "fragile" mana base with a 4th color to deal with pw!
I'm not saying that EE is not needed off course.
List I played yesterday, going 4-1 splitting top 4.
24 Lands:
1 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
2 Plains
Draw/Tutors: 11
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 ETutor
3 Standstill
Win Conditions: 6
3 Jace TMS
2 Elspeth
1 Crucible
Removal: 10
3 EE
4 StP
1 WoG
1 Humility
1 Nevinryall's Disk
Permission: 10
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
SB:
3 Counterbalance
2 Ethersworn Canonist (mainly to up the 2cmc to 11 count postboard v.s. decks where CB is needed)
2 Path to Exile
2 Perish
2 Peacekeeper
2 Extirpate
2 Relic of Progenitus
MATCH 1: Junk
Don't remember much but both games involve hitting land drops and winning with Elspeth. Game 2 he opened with Duress + Mox Diamond + Thoughtseize taking Spell Snare and Perish and I have double plow for 2 creatures. He had a SDT in play and after bouncing to play Vindicate Elspeth which I forced, I countered his SDT next turn and he loses to my SDT in play.
MATCH 2: NO Bant
Game 1: He keeps a counter-heavy hand and I put him on New Horizons (no early threats). I play around Daze/Stifle and hit 4 land drops, put a Jace down. He Natural Orders and I force and he pierce (I have 1 land untapped). NO resolves and he puts me on a 2 turn clock. Jace dug 8 cards with 2 fetchlands and a brainstorm for another 4 cards to grab a Humility winning the game.
Game 2: He cannot fight past double StP, WoG, Perish, Disk that I resolved accordingly. Elspeth seals it up
MATCH 3: Hypergenesis
Game 1: He turn 2 Hypergenesis in response to Standstill which I force, he has the force as well.
Game 2: I board in +3 Counterbalance, +2 Canonist, +2 Extirpate, +2 Peacekeeper, +2 Perish (all awesome against this deck), but he turn 2's me again. No FoW = lose. This matchup is always kinda 50-50, slightly in my favor game 2, but if they draw the nuts, you can't do much
MATCH 4: Meandeck MUD
Game 1: The start of the game was hilarious. I keep a mediocore hand but it had Spell Snare + Wasteland anticipating his Tomb->Monolith. He goes Ancient Tomb + Monolith, I snare it, then Waste his tomb next turn. He topdeck lands like a champ (City of Traitors/Great Furnace) and puts up a good fight. Turn 4 Jace is brutal against Meandeck MUD. We play out a pretty long game, ETutor -> Disk with some StP and he scoops it up.
Game 2: He mulls to 6, goes Ancient Tomb Monolith MW. Seems good. My hand is Counterspell, Land, Spell Snare and no StP. I didn't draw StP, he reveals with MW into Lodestone + Myr Battlesphere on turn 2. Seems good. Hit 4 lands, no WoG/Humility = GG
Game 3: I draw a hand of 2 Fetches, 1 Spell Snare, 2 StP, 1 Standstill, Brainstorm + stuff. I told him this hand is the nuts against him. He leads with monolith and I snare. Then drop Standstill, he cracks. Over the next 4 cards that I drew (including Standstill), I have a full set of StP. Jace comes down and he can't beat StP lol.
MATCH 5: don't remember this match at all
Split Top 4.
Comments: I do miss Wish because testing 4 games against combo yesterday, I realized that my opponents seldom go off turn 2 (since they want to go off protected). Wish does increase the blue count, and gives some flexibility, but at the same time, I did enjoy the slightly more straightforward SB.
2 Perish + 1 WoG + 1 Disk (i.e. 2 WoG effect) is simply amazing and dense against any decks playing green creatures.
I might want to up the Peacekeeper count to 3, as more dense outs to Merfolks and Show and Tell/Hypergenesis/NO decks.
Counterbalance SB against combo testing was neat. Definitely worthwhile for the fast combo matchup, and possible Enchantress/Sligh/Burn when that crops up. I never felt the need for it game 1, since my metagames (or the general metagame) is still primarily creature-based.
The lone Disk over the 2nd WoG was really nice in testing. Both games against Meandeck MUD it was the game-winning card, forcing them to be unable to play around it while nuking all their accelerants leaving them with just 1-2 lands in play. It's probably amazing against Affinity, and it was still decent against Bant when I played it. It's essentially a Deedfor color-tight UWx builds since you rarely can pop Deed on the same turn you play it, so passing the turn drawback applies for both. Disk has some benefit to kill ANYTHING (Emrakul/Progenitus), and has nice synergy with Ruins (this is win-more but there's the option and I used that option once against Meandeck MUD).
Metalwalker, how about Oblivion Stone instead of Disk to wipe the entire board, taking opponent's planeswalkers too? After all, they both activate on turn 5, but at least Oblivion seems more reliable in late game where you have lots of lands in play, as you can activate the turn it comes into play; and for the same reason it seems better with Academy Ruins recursion, too.
Edit: if you are running Tutors, I'd really play a singleton Aura Flux in sb, it owns Enchantress pretty nicely.
Oblivion Stone sucks. You want to be able to sweep the board and then drop Standstill. Disk sweeps for 1 Mana, Oblivion Stone for 5, so chances are little that you will be able to drop Standstill afterwards AND have Counterspell-/SpellSnare-Mana open.Quote:
Originally Posted by kiblast
btw. I played the Wafo-List yesterday and barely made top8 with 4-2, losing against the top2 players (Springtide and UR Merfolk). I didn't really knew that Merfolk was such a bad matchup (although getting lucksacked away with 4 Wastelands and 3 Mutavault in both g1 and g2 was devastating for my blood pressure). And Sprintide... well, I was colorscrewed and wasn't able to find white mana with SDt to drop my 3 Meddling Mages, so I guess that was bad luck. The matchup is still not in my favor.
I guess I have to play Wastelands again and maybe neglect the 3rd color Splash for it. I'm not really sure anymore.
Yeah Adan puts the point of Disk v.s. Ostone well. But to be fair, the only time I ever played OStone in Legacy was in MUC, and it still kinda sucked since it was way too mana intensive. The only problem with Oblivion Stone is that it's only better than Disk if you're not dying i.e. you can afford to play it turn 3, then activate it EOT when you need to. Usually, you are almost always forced to activate it on their attack step (legacy aggro decks want to kill you in general) so they can make their second main phase drops by playing out more spells. Disk comes down a turn slower so that's the drawback, but once it untaps, it blows the board for 1, giving you mana to either counter their spells or let you blow your own disk up on your own turn and setup with Planeswalkers/Standstill. Sometimes, mana efficiency is another factor to consider v.s. slower cards. The same way Deed is in general stronger than Disk, but the pro-side of Disk is that it's very mana efficient as a sweeper (a recurrable one and tutorable one too!)
Adan. I made some Wafo-list (only change was -3rd Jace, -2nd Humility +1 Cunning WIsh) with a SB of Peacekeeper and EPlagues against merfolks 3 weeks ago. I get roflpwned by the same Waste waste Mutavaultx100 with Lords + endless counterspells. They were not even netting cards with STandstills/adepts, but just drew into early counters, followed by multiple lords and 2 mutavaults in play. The deck is dumb and is the only deck in Legacy that pisses me off i.e. for some reason they always get the nut draws.. Anyway end of rant: 3 Peacekeeper does the job well. Tapo's manabase is amazing. I have kept the 8th fetch originally playing 7 but found that 8 fetchlands is crucial to beating Wastelands and fetching basics. You can play around Tempo decks stifle very well due to your high land count and you are never in a rush to crack your fetches against tempo decks most of the time (since they play like 8 threats and you play like 10 removals + Tops + Planeswalkers? lol)
And I don't understand the people who don't play Landstill saying it's wrong to play Standstill into a Noble Hierarch... I'll take 19 damage from Noble Hierarch all day under my Standstill. As long as I make my land drops I'm fine, and as long as I draw Factories under my STandstill before I die lol. There was once I was really forced to crack my Standstill after taking 12 damage from Hierarch, but I still did so EOT. Shit happens sometimes. Am I not supposed to lead Standstill against a Hierarch in most cases? (I know that the particular bant list did not play Wastelands MD but he had like 2 Arbors)
Nice list and good job on the finish!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalwalker
How was it using 3 Jace> Did you ever wish you had 2 and then something else such as FoF?
Thanks! I used to play 5 win-conditions (2 Jace, 2 Elspeth, 1 Crucible) and 4 Factories.
I switched to 3 Jace when I was rethinking on the value of the 4th Counterspell v.s. the 3rd Jace. I would love to have 11 MD Permission against most decks game 1, but I felt that in the end, just drawing Jace and protecting him was going to win more games than the 4th Counterspell did. Of course, I've done testing with 2-3 Jaces and usually liked 2 Jaces. But I went online to check for winning lists (most lists played 3 Jace, 2 Elspeth), so I had to rethink again, whether it was easier to win games with Jace or the 11th Permission spell. I used to play 3 Jace, but cut the 3rd Jace for a Crucible. Now that the Crucible is one of the more important cards when games drag on, both as a win-condition to ensure you don't run out of Factories, but it's a crucial card in mid-range or control decks.
I'm happy with 3 Jaces for now, and I will continue to test/play with it. I love FoF, and even own 2 signed foil copies (very pretty signed card with TNielson's golden signature :D), but I'm not sure if FoF is more powerful over the 3rd Jace. Now that I'm playing quite a lot of sweepers, I might test out FoF again. FoF can also create those nightmare headaches where the opponent put a 1 Jace 4 card pile and you pick up the 4 cards only to cast the Jace in your hand :P
I'd run out a turn two Standstill on the play against a turn 1 Noble Hierarch. On the draw, however, if the opponent didn't cast anything on turn 2, I wouldn't run out Standstill. You'll want to be untapped if they go for turn 3 Natural Order.Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalwalker
Here's the list I have from back when Survival was around, I'm looking to update it (I've been in a hiatus from Magic since then):
Land:
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Karakas (aka Cool Iona/Emrakul, Bro.)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
Distinctly-not-land:
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
1 Spell Snare (this is a relic from the Survival metagame, may come out for a 4th Standstill or MD Enlightened Tutor)
4 Force of will
3 Cunning Wish
3 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
2 Wrath of God
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Humility
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Decree of Justice
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Eternal Dragon
Sideboard:
1 Extirpate
2 Path to Exile
1 Return to Dust
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Negate
1 Wing Shards
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Stifle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Peacekeeper
So kicking off with the Mental Misstep deal:
{PU} Instant
{PU} can be paid with either 2 life or U.
Counter target spell with cmc 1.
Now, granted that this gives Landstill a huge boost to our nemesis vial decks, it is still fairly limited in scope for the deck considering what Spell SNare is more capable of. In general, outside of Vial, Landstill is still primarily afraid of cards that are 2cmc: Goyf/Pridemage/Bob/Chalice@1 etc.
I do think that Landstill maybe forced to play this card, not as an out to Vial decks, but as an answer to opposing Vial decks that are most likely going to playing Mental Misstep themselves. Vial decks would be wanting to play this card, both as a safeguard against Misstep, but also against EE@1 and multiple other spells e.g. StP.
I'm not sure how things will turn out, but I can't help imagining and getting my mind blown away by how this spoiled card may change the mechanics on how we think about deck matchups. It's no longer as simple as FoWing the Vial or EE'ing the Vial. Also, I see Landstill getting weakened more by opposing Mental Misstep than benefiting from playing its own playset. Your StPs are no longer as safe as they were if opponents are playing this spell, and on your side paying 2 life is more costly than an aggro deck paying 2 life.
Thoughts? This card is really blowing me away. I might just play Tempo decks and not worry about how to deal with this crap :P
although shifting from Counterspell/Spell Snare split to Mental Misstep/Spell Snare suite gives the deck less flexibility, but a lot more fighting power in the early game. Maybe a 3/2/2 split of Mental Misstep/Snare/Counterspell would be good enough?
I am very exciting about this card in Landstill. First and foremost it answers Vial, and does a nice job of skirting around Daze if you are on the play. It also happens to answer cards in matchups where Snare is weak, namely Goblins, Dredge, and some other matchups as well. I am much more concerned about Vial than I am a Goyf, Bob, or Counterbalance. Also, it hits Top, which is the better part of the CBTop lock against us.
(if you are afraid of Misstep hitting EE @ 1, just add another mana of the same color to the EE so the sunburst is the same, but the cmc=2)
@Shawn, came back from a work meeting, and my mind was wandering around thinking of misstep in landstill, and I realized, I really don't feel 2cmc spells unless it's a Hymn. Everything else I fear 1cmc spells much more than 2cmc (most 2cmc bombs are creatures, which are answered by EE/StP).
The biggest strength of Snare was being able to have an efficient counter on the draw where Counterspell was weak. Misstep fulfills the same philosophy except it happens yet a turn earlier than Snare on 1cmc spells i.e. turn 0. Being able to catch Top/Vial/Nactl/Thoughtseize/Putrid Imp/Lackey on turn 0 is much more safer than catching Goyf/Bob/Counterbalance on turn 2 (given that you have more ways to get out of 2cmc spells than the 1 cmc spells listed).
I'll be dropping 3 Snares and probably test out 3-4 copies of this card. This will shore up a lot of valuable matchup, namely Dredge/Bant/Gobs (all have been decent but Dredge was still tough on the draw). What I'm REALLY terrified is Merfolks playing 4 Missteps. This will probably be an even harder matchup despite the fact that both Merfolks and Landstill will be packing missteps.
As control UWx decks player I'm more scared of mental mistep in my opponents' hands than how I would like it in my deck.because I don't like my StP to be countered.
vial decks are not a problem for UWx control decks....
If you play peacekeeper. peacekeeper stops merfolk and it is difficult to be countered (pierce and cathcer are useless vs peacekeeper).
If you don't play peacekeeper (4X) You'll lose often vs merfolk. If you play you'll wn evevry game you see it.
try to believe.
Peacekeeper is great, no need to argue about this, but her big drawback is the fact that we can't use our drawengine (Standstill) efficient while he's in play (except of course if we have Jace allready besides him, but in this case we are allready far enough ahead). Comparing her to a card like Preacher, who is good with and wihtout a Standstill in play, she lacks that last bit of strengh.
I can agree 100% that, if he sticks, Merfolk has a hard time so kill him, however they can still you Pierce, Ciuse, Daze and FoW to stop the real gamewinners (i.e. Jace and Elspeth). And if they they are smart enough they can grind it out (somebody might call this lame or even go so far to call it stalling but if've seen players walking on the small edge of what is allowed and what isn't).
Again I love Peacekeeper (as much as I love Preacher), they are both powerfull and fun cards to play, but neither on them is superior to each other, as they both have there own playstyle and favorit MU's.
good points.
I play peacekeeper 3/4X sideoard in a UWB control deck which uses 4 baneslayer and 3 jace TMS as finishers and 4 esper charm as draw engine (even 50% of the time I make opponent discard. I usually side out 4 angels when I side in peacekeeper) so I have no experience in having problems with peacekeeper + standstill, but every times I dropped peacekeeper my opponent scooped few turns later and I didn't even needed to let jace in to the win.
The difference between peacekeeper and preacher (or merieke ri berit which I wouldn't play couse to karakas) is that the first one says "game over" for the opponent, while the second doesn't. it just helps greatly our game but it's not as "ultimate" as peacekeeper
(if in both case opponent does not kill our creature)
Do you guys think landstill will have more problems resolving a standstill if mental misstep gets popular?
my self I'm testing encreasing the Swiords to plowshares effects in my deck to avoid the problem.
list:
22 lands (8 fetchs 1 tundra 1 sea 1 scrubland 1 karakas 6 island 3 plains 1 swamp)
4 baneslayer
3 jace tms
2 glen elendra mage
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
4 esper charm
4 force of will
3 counterspell
4 swords to plowshares
3 engineered explosives
2 wrath of god
2 path to exile <--- new entry !
side:
3 peacekeeper
2 meddling mage
2 vendilion clique
2 back to basics
2 relic
1 extiirpate
1 elspeth KE
1 vindicate
1 envelop <-- to face all combo tutors natural order, show and tell and rock's spells (it's my counter n°8 but I have esper charm which is awesome vs combos)
I know my deck has few things in common to landstill. but I believe UWx control decks in general have to face very similar problems
4 Baneslayer Angel with 22 lands??? O_O I have not tested your list but I'll say that even with that manabase you will be having a tough time resolving Baneslayers, not to mention multiple baneslayers being dead early. I personally like Baneslayer in Legacy but I feel that in a deck like Landstill, it's not worth fighting their removal with your countermagic, especially when you're burned low on countermagic in the early game.
I originally thought that Misstep spells bad news for Landstil i.e. hits our StP etc. But after some deep thinking (spent about 2 hours brewing lists and reflecting the implication on Misstep for non-CBTop control decks in Legacy) and with some affirmation from Shawn, I am sold with Missteps being a huge boost to Landstill, rather than a bane.Quote:
Do you guys think landstill will have more problems resolving a standstill if mental misstep gets popular?
The reasons are simple:
1) If everyone starts playing Missteps, then it is only more important to play Missteps to not lose to the tempo/advantage that oppossing missteps is generating.
2) If your opponent isn't playing Missteps e.g. Goblins and other deck-tight decks, then you wiill have a stronger FoW 5-8 when it comes to specifically countering 1cmc spells.
3) Misstep is tremendous against Vial decks. Sure say they Misstepp'd your Misstep, it's all fair, but Landstill will just simply fight the fight on beating vial like it has always done so in the past e.g. with EE. At least you know that's one less Misstep for your StP/Brainstorm.
4) Misstep tremendously boosts the power of Standstill on the play. You can now counter a 1cmc creature with Misstep and lead with a Standstill even if you don't have hands with StP, or if you do have StP, you can save that for post-standstill.
5) Misstep significantly boosts the Goblin, Dredge, Thoughtseize.dec, Top.dec matchups, which are historically 50-50 matchups at best preboard.
6) Landstill has always been a deck very vulnerable in the early game. The ability to play Missteps as an early game counter with minimal resources, countering some of the worst cards that tend to beat landstill decks (namely Thoughtseize/Duress, Lackey, Vial, Top) is a huge step to making the deck have a fighting power in the early game. I'm not listing those 1cmc spells for sake of listing. E.g. When an opponent Thoughtseizes a Landstill v.s. a Counterbalance player, the thoughtseize is going to kill the landstill player more than the Countertop player simply because cards mean a lot more to Landstill players than they mean to Countertop players, who rely on an engine that generates them pseudo card advantage whereas in Landstill we are more fragile to getting our best spell removed. Similarly, it is an uphill battle to fight against decks playing Top/Vial, because Landstill is fundamentally running specific answers, rather than a general set of answers as seen in other controllish decks e.g. Countertop/Junk etc.
I would say that the most relevant point are points 4) and 6). Every other point is dependent on whether opponents are playing Missteps, the nature of their decks etc. TLDR; Missteps gives you huge advantages over decks that don't play Missteps, while breaking even against decks that do pack Missteps. For Landstill, the additional benefit is making Standstill on the play much stronger than before.
I took a very similar list to the one I took to the GPT to a small tourney today, getting first and walking away with $50 cash. I squeezed two Cliques in place of a Hydroblast and a Tsabo's Decree as I saw there was a bunch of combo there. I played against the following decks:
Elves! (2-1) Game one I drew a bunch of lands and counters after he amassed a horde, game two I had multiple sweepers and Humility, game three I kill a bunch of guys and resolve Jace after he mulliganed to five.
UW Landstill Counterbalance Walkers (2-0) Pretty simple, I drew out counters which enabled me to win the Jace war, countered some Tops, and set up Crucible+Waste both games. Clique was awesome here, allowing for a test spell EOT and allowed me to resolve Crucible or Jaces on my turn.
UG Cloudpost (2-1) Game one I Extirpated Cloudpost and was aggressive with counters on Crop Rotation, g2 I have some counters and Clique, but it reveals Eye of Ugin. G3 was similar to game one, but with Clique.
Enchantress (0-2) I had two Deeds game one, but one was O'Ringed and I couldn't activate the second for enough before he won because of a Suppression Field. G2 I had the Deed, but he had Replenish and I drew dead for a bunch of turns.
Enchantress (2-0) G1 I counter an Argothian, G2 I counter his first three spells, EE for one to cripple his mana, Spellbomb his yard away in response to Replenish counter two more spells, and kill him with Clique.
Bant Aggro (2-0) T2 Standstill resolved, I assembled Crucible. Jace bounces Knight and I EE away a Noble so he can't cast it for several turns and by that time I found a Counterspell. G2 I kill a bunch of guys, resolve Jace and win at a relatively high life total.