[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

wcm8- I am versed in the ways of daze-fu, trust me. The other examples were just off the top of my head and not all were really good examples but listing every application of either card would be very long indeed. Regarding the 19th land, im sure it works well but our low land count is part of the card advantage we enjoy and having the choice of +1 land or 1 stifle I think most people would choose the extra spell. I do.

Anyway Im not arguing about whether pierce is better than stifle and vice versa, Im saying that BOTH belong maindeck. If we look at the counter suite we run I think most would agree that the weakest counterspell is actually spell snare.
We want counter magic to be as 'hard' and broad as possible. Snare does one of those 2and fails at the other. Stifle otoh not only hard counters and is broadly applicable, but also gives answers to permanents that our countermagic missed, something no other counterspell can boast. For reference my current suite is:
4 daze
4 stifle
3 fow
3 pierce
3 snare

I believe this is very close to optimal and doesnt sacrifice any one type to squeeze the other since they are all situationally amazing, which is why I have a cantrip engine. Now if snare and FoW were currently so good as to warrant 4-of each all the time I might concede to losing stifle, but their not. In fact Ive found 3 of each to be optimal so far. I might be convinced that stifle falls into this same catagory though, and thats my current dilema.

Lastly I dont see how CT is really becoming more aggro than control unless your talking about the addition of delver? I almost always play the control role (maybe im wrong here though since Im still kinda new to this deck coming from TA).

Anyway good discussion so far.

You know the main problem with stifle?! Its that motherfucking mother of runes she says "answer me now or lose!"



Just for fun ill give it a try with -stifle, +1 pierce and snare, +1 land +1 burn.

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

You know the main problem with stifle?! Its that motherfucking mother of runes she says "answer me now or lose!"



Just for fun ill give it a try with -stifle, +1 pierce and snare, +1 land +1 burn.

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Sulfur Elemental says hello :)

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Sulfur Elemental says hello :)

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Haha yup, postboard at least. Its game 1 otd when shes the worst.

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

Lastly I dont see how CT is really becoming more aggro than control unless your talking about the addition of delver? I almost always play the control role (maybe im wrong here though since Im still kinda new to this deck coming from TA).

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Playing 12 creatures makes a pretty significant difference with how the deck plays out. The way I play the deck, I generally ship back a hand that does not have a creature (against an unknown opponent anyways, unless the rest of the hand has an acceptable/healthy mix of counterspells/bolts/lands/cantrips). Ideally, I want to drop a T1 Delver/Mongoose, followed up possibly with another creature on T2. I want my opponents to remain on the defensive the entire time. I use my counterspells aggressively -- for example, against Maverick, if they are casting GSZ for 1 and I'm holding a Spell Pierce and have a Delver out, I generally will let GSZ resolve and instead save Pierce for a more relevant spell. If I'm winning the damage race, I'll direct all burn spells at the opponent rather than pick off their creatures if I can safely ignore them. RUG has a very poor mid/late game in comparison to some Legacy decks, so I try to avoid letting games progress to that point. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Generally the only matchups where I'm not playing the beatdown role is in the mirror/close-to-mirror and against certain combo decks. I feel like Stifle is too defensive/reactive/situationally-good to fit into this gameplan.

In regards to people being worried about wasteland blowouts, this is exactly why running 19 lands with a single basic island is crucial. If you keep a one lander and it happens to be a fetch obv, then just go find your single Island and cantrip into the necessary duals you require. I have made comments in the past regarding the Stifle vs. Pierce argument and I agree with what wcm has said in that aspect. In all the matchups I've tested there was only one that I wished pierce was stifle and that was Nic Fit. If the meta shifts and Nic Fit starts becoming more of a DTB, then by all means maybe running a split is necessary. For right now, I think pierce is still the best way to go.

Also, regarding a resolved Mom. It isn't the end of the world because if you haven't got an active Delver going in this matchup, you probably lose anyways. You will be flying over mom and the only two spells you need to fear at that point is Scyrb Ranger and GSZ into ranger.

Im gonna try going more beatdown then. TBH I think we really really need to discuss maindeck options to address maverick. Ive been wracking my brain all morning and I cant seem to come up with anything. Also I disagree that resolved mom isnt game. Not sure what variation of mav you guys play against (maybe all idk) but its pretty bad when im happy to see SFM! The latest version I play against that forgoes SFM is almost unwinnable game 1. Postboard I bring in 9 hate cards and I feel it MIGHT bring me to even ground. might. Here I completely agree that stifle is shit. Other matchups its good to great but im tired of maverick so im willing to try anything at this point.

Here are my problems, (besides GSZ into everything): moms, thalias, jittes, oozes, kotrs. The deck is just too threat dense to get ahead so our disruption doesnt work when the pressure never lets up. Sure my godhand can sometimes outrace them, barely, and only if im OTP. Postboard its alot better but I mean jeez this is legacy! WTF has WotC done to make green aggro this freakin good?

Edit- panic mode over beer kicking in..

Maverick is not aggro. -> they do not play goyf. its a utility/hatebear deck with the bonus that the best hatebear is huge.

Btw.: Thank god they cannot GSZ for Thalia, mom, jitte,... :)

Against maverick you cannot win without the early threat. But we do have a lot of means to defend delver and trade to make way for goyf/mongoose.

I play with 6-7 burn spells MD plus 4 submerge, 1-2 ancient grudge from the board. IMO Force of will has to stay... many say its not a good card against maverick, because of their redundancy. Playing a control deck this statement is true, but since we are the aggro deck and have to defend our threats aggressively versus their removal spells which are not that redundant, FoW, Pierce, Daze are good. Stifle/Snare, 1 Goyf (1-2 daze on the draw) are the weaker spots imo. I like mongoose because of shroud and all the monsters handling mongoose on the ground also handle Goyf.

You have to be careful saving your removal for something worth it imo. them having that extra mana can give them the tempo boost they might need to cast 2 spells,.... I am not saying you should "mindlessly" kill everything on sight, but imo it is often they correct thing to do.

wcm8, Impinainteasy- thanks guys! Such simple advise but sometimes its easy to lose sight of it. I retract basically everything I said recently *booooof ugh*.
Your right we are the beatdown and mom doesnt usually matter, at least not early game.
So with this in mind I sleaved up spartan117's list with a few changes, the most notable difference from current lists and his is 2 F/I and 2 dismember. Ive been playing against maverick for the last few hours, all game 1, with far better success now.
I had to force myself to ignore those damn proliferating moms hierachs and arbors, even letting thalia resolve if I had sufficient mana + bolt/fire in order to save my business for stp, knights, oozes, jittes, library and elspeth. Worked wonders even though I still lost at least 50 percent.

The main thing I think I was doing wrong was trying to out tempo them early game, which just aint possible. Instead Ive been letting everything with ass = 1 resolve turns 1-3 to develop my manabase enough to drop threats and protect, leaving the resource denial game at home for the most part. Sound about right or no? I noticed this plan also makes kotr alot smaller so I can race more effectively instead of smash-> dead. Also saving counters for the cards I mentioned above makes goyfs bigger.

Catmint- your advise is sound and along the same track as what the others said. Dont know why I was missing the subtle difference in play looks like I gotta pay more attention to you guys now!

Todays thought: Volcanic Spray

I am not sold on the card, but I can see it on the same level as Rough/Tumble.
Some upsides, some downsides, but it's definetly worth testing.

Looks decent, even good against maverick, but missing flyers probably relegates it to SB at best. Too bad we dont have access to more quality flashback cards because then maybe we could consider a couple lootings or careful studys in the ponder slot.

Even though I am def. a fan of new cards and innovations...sometimes theres a point reached where it is enough... And this card is just weak, honestly. Lets compare it with Rough. Same cc but Rough kills a lot of relevant stuff aswell. Oh yes, this one got flashback... if we give the enemey (mainley Maverick ) enough time to recover - in order to make the flashback useful - we might be losing the game in any way...

So I wanted to present you my list, which I think is quite the optimum..

3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island

2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn

4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lìghtning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt

//Side
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Rough
4 Submerge

It turns out to be superior list to a lot of MUs. The only one I am not comfortable with is the Combo + GY -MU but this is mainley due to the fact, that I did not test these MUs with Canadian yet.

Try it out. Greetings

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

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So with this in mind I sleaved up spartan117's list with a few changes, the most notable difference from current lists and his is 2 F/I and 2 dismember. Ive been playing against maverick for the last few hours, all game 1, with far better success now.
...

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Hope you like it :wink:

Anyway, with the following list (4 bolt, 2 forked bolt, 2 fire/ice, 3 goyfs, 3 snares) I went 7-0 maindeck against GW maverick (with thalia) and 5-2 post-side. Maybe it's because of my luck, but I don't think this kind of results against maverick are solely based on randomness and good draws. I still keep winning against GW, and even today I faced another one in tournament and went 2-0 without any difficulties. If you manage to manascrew them, you always win, and even if you don't, you can still race or out-tempo them. Submerge plays a big role in doing so. Also: here in Europe we like to play a couple Mind Harness to steal their Knights and Oozes. They're very effective in doing their job, try 'em out, you won't regret doing so.

Yesterday I did a testing session against esperblade: 18 MD games, alternating the starting player. I went 12-6: this means we have to capitalize our advantages in Game1, because after boarding we lose something in our winning percentage (perish, EE, pierce).

Now I'm playing this list:

4 nimble mongoose
4 delver of secrets
3 tarmogoyf
4 force of will
4 daze
4 stifle
3 spell snare
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 lightning bolt
2 fire/ice
2 forked bolt (used to be dismembers)

18 lands (6 fetch, 4-4 duals, 4 waste)

3 spell pierce
1 reb
1 pyroblast
3 submerge
2 mind harness
2 grafdigger's cage
1 surgical extraction
2 sulfuric vortex


There's little to no need of something like krosan grip/ancient grudge because you aren't siding them in against maverick and rarely vs stoneblade (where sulfuric vortex really shines, same vs control decks in general).

My actual side plans are:

VS GW maverick

OTP=OTD

-2 force -2 daze -1 ponder -1spell snare -1 tarmogoyf -1 stifle
+3 submerge +2 mind harness +3 spell pierce

VS GWr Maverick

OTP=OTD

-2 force -2 daze -4 delver of secrets
+3 submerge +2 mind harness +3 spell pierce

Vs UW stoneblade

OTP

-2 force of will -3 goyf -2 forked bolt
+3 spell pierce +2 reb/pyroblast +2 sulfuric vortex

OTD

-2 daze -3 goyf -2 forked bolt
+3 spell pierce +2 reb/pyroblast +2 sulfuric vortex



I'd like to try -2 fire/ice +2 dismember +1 fetch -1 tropical island and find some space for a couple sulfur elementals in the board. Sulfuric vortex is really disappointing me, I never find the opportunity to side it in... I'll probably end up cutting it.

However, try out this configuration, I like it a lot and it does really well what it's supposed to do. (also: more reach is good)

If you have any question, feel free to send me a PM :wink:

Today i went 6-1, finishing first in a 66 man tournament.

I played the following:

2 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanis Island
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
1 Thought Scour
1 Predict


Sideboard:
4 Submerge
3 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Rough//Tumble
1 Ancient Grudge

So, what's to say:

Stifle - I prefer Stifle maindeck over Spell Pierce and really enjoyed to stifle fetchlands and some triggers all day long.

Green Sun's Zenith - Yep, one Zenith or better to say, Mongoose number 5 and sometimes Scavenging Ooze. Really liked it.

Scavenging Ooze - Got to love it. Able to win random games and jumped off a Zenith. Only 3 green sources were never a problem.

Tarmogoyf - Totally underperforming today. Never fetched him with a Zenith.

Forked Bolt - Like the potential to trade 2 for 1 and the manacost, dislike the sorcery speed though. Actually it never happened in the tournament, aimed for the face to seal the deal 3 times. Need more comparison to Fire//Ice, which I played in this slot before.

Thought Scour - Grow little Mongoose, grow. Also milled an opponent one time, after he used Enlightened Tutor. Also improved some draws after Brainstorm/Ponder.

Predict - See Thought Scour. Maybe i'll try a second Thought Scour in this slot.

Rough//Tumble - After a little scouting and seing 3 Goblindecks and 2 Elves! I switched 2 Sulfur Elemental to Rough//Tumble. Only against the Lingering Souls//Deadguy Deck I wanted the Elemental. Never faced another deck where I needed any of the cards though.

Decks I faced this day:

Mono-B Reanimator 2-1 win
Deadguy Ale with Lingering Souls 2-1 win
Zoo with Punishing Fire 2-1 win
ANT 2-1 win
Aggroloam 1-2 loss
Burn 2-0 win
UB Reanimator 2-0 win

Strange I didn't face Maverick... :wink:

Perhaps I'll write down what I boarded, but for now it's time for some beer. :tongue:

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Thunderous Wrath - 4RR, Instant, Thunderous Wrath deals 5 damage to target creature or player. Miracle R (You may cast this card for its Miracle cost when you draw it if it's the first card you drew this turn)

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Seeing this spoiled made me lolz with glee! If it doesnt get brainstorm banned our deck just got a MAJOR boost.

How could they possibly print such a card? That's just way too good with cantrips.

I think Thunderous Wrath fits more with UR delver than thresh, I'm not sure if I'm cutting Lightning Bolt for it. I'm not cutting forked bolts any minute.

Bolt wont ever be cut but the other flex spots could very easily become wraths. Flipping delver off a 5 damage bolt is insane, plus it clears alot of midsized creatures that some people use dismember to answer currently. It looks like the real deal.

does this deck really need four stifles?

Stifle is one of those cards that you generally want 4 or 0 of. Some people have been cutting stifle for pierce, as pierce can counter more relevant things in the mirror acting as a hard counter for U in counterwars is huge maindeck.

On thunderous wrath, the card definitely looks interesting. However, is it worth it? One in the opener is dead without a brainstorm. We can very rarely hardcast the card, as wasteland is prevalent and wasteland is a card. I'm not sold on it, I'd love to be proven wrong but only testing will tell whether this card is good enough in this deck.

Cutting lightning bolt is basically tantamount to cutting force of will completely from this deck. Don't ever do it, you won't like what you see afterwards when you lose infinite games due to not having lightning bolt in your MD.