Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jrw1985
Cavern of Souls will be a huge boost from an aggro and tempo perspective, and it fixes mana along the way, and you can use it to cast Vial T1 too. Shit damn, this card will be sick. A tribal Bijou, Who Shelters All without the lifeloss dawback? Yes, please. Any goblin deck not running 4 of these just isn't doing it right. This card will change the format. U decks will no longer be able to just brainstorm their way into free counters against Goblins. They'll actually have to use removal, and that means they have to spend mana, which means they don't get to play that T1 Delver after Forcing our Lackey anymore. That's a good thing for us. Stingscourger is now guaranteed to connect against Reanimator. TSH is now actually playable and the Cavern already does the mana fixing for us. That's incredible. Carvern will cause the format to become more creature centric, which is always good for Gobbos.
This is the most significant card to be printed for a Goblin deck since Ringleader.
I'm don't think it'll make the format more creature centric, I think it'll make the format less creature centric because previous foils to Goblins such as Zoo are going to be the only creature based decks that can't utilize this land so we're going to become stronger vs. Control and Aggro-Control while our foils become less and less present in the metagame.
It may literally boil down to Maverick, Deadguy, Goblins and Elves and that's hoping Goblins just doesn't blow out Maverick and Deadguy. Meh, this card is so potentially meta warping towards Tribal aggro. It's kind of a shame.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
So is everyone in agreement?
-4 Mountain
+4 Land of Vial Goblins
For all intents and purposes it produces red mana, except for Gempalm cycling, Aether Vial (vial doesn't care), tribal removal and SB cards. Some red SB spells may be harder to cast. BUT HEY we don't need to worry about artifact kill getting countered so just run Tin-Street Hooligan AND THIS AUTO-FIXES YOU FOR GREEN MANA OMG OMG OMG
I think the card is getting too much hype in general, but it's pretty much custom-built for Vial Goblins. It just fits in so seamlessly and supports your gameplan.
I propose this get added to the Core cards.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
So is everyone in agreement?
-4 Mountain
+4 Land of Vial Goblins
For all intents and purposes it produces red mana, except for Gempalm cycling, Aether Vial (vial doesn't care), tribal removal and SB cards. Some red SB spells may be harder to cast. BUT HEY we don't need to worry about artifact kill getting countered so just run Tin-Street Hooligan AND THIS AUTO-FIXES YOU FOR GREEN MANA OMG OMG OMG
I think the card is getting too much hype in general, but it's pretty much custom-built for Vial Goblins. It just fits in so seamlessly and supports your gameplan.
I propose this get added to the Core cards.
Oh, but it does cast Vial, cycle Gempalm, and cast SB cards! It taps for 1 colorless mana with no restrictions on how you use it, so you can pay 1 for Vial, or 1 of the R1 to cycle Gempalm, or 1 of B2 to cast Perish. So, yes, you can use it plenty beyond casting Goblins.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jrw1985
Oh, but it does cast Vial, cycle Gempalm, and cast SB cards! It taps for 1 colorless mana with no restrictions on how you use it, so you can pay 1 for Vial, or 1 of the R1 to cycle Gempalm, or 1 of B2 to cast Perish. So, yes, you can use it plenty beyond casting Goblins.
It is a decent card but not quite the slamdunk auto 4 of. The text is quite specified that its coloured mana can only be used to cast creature spells of the chosen creature type and only then that spell can't be countered. So, it doesn't help with all the sideboard cards in terms of coloured mana. It also can't be fetched and can't help to fix mana for interesting off colour spells like Warren Weirding.
Furthermore, our creatures are already pretty much uncounterable with vials in the first place.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jrw1985
Oh, but it does cast Vial, cycle Gempalm, and cast SB cards! It taps for 1 colorless mana with no restrictions on how you use it, so you can pay 1 for Vial, or 1 of the R1 to cycle Gempalm, or 1 of B2 to cast Perish. So, yes, you can use it plenty beyond casting Goblins.
Guys, please read more carefully. Did I say you couldn't cast them? Nope. I said it didn't produce red mana for them. Vial doesn't care. Gempalm/tribal removal/SB stuff might care if you just had this+Port+Wasteland, but any other colored source and you're good.
Why does red mana make a difference? People were arguing to cut Ports for these. I am arguing to cut Mountains for these, since in 95% of cases it can do everything that a Mountain can do. Aside from vulnerability to Wasteland and Back to Basics, it is essentially a Mountain with benefits. Which means I see no reasons not to cut a few basic Mountains for them unless Back to Basics is a serious concern. (Blood Moon is irrelevant: it just turns it back into the Mountain it was replacing). Maybe the safe thing is to cut 3 Mountains and 1 Port.
Vials make your guys uncounterable, but Vial also has a giant "HEY LOOK AT ME! GET READY TO PITCH A BLUE CARD AND DECREMENT YOUR LIFE BY 1" on it. You don't always start with Vial, it doesn't always resolve, and artifact removal is everywhere because of Maverickblade and Esperblade and Bantblade and Bladeblade. It's nice to be able to do stuff without Vial.
Ex: Opponent has a Jitte. You want to Tuktuk Scrapper it so you don't lose the game, but you don't have a Vial and those damn Spirit tokens are laughing at your Lackey. Oh lookie here. This there land there lets you cast a Matron into Tuktuk Scrapper without worrying about counterspells! So, barring a Stifle, that Jitte is guaranteed dead. Seems useful.
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Interesting point: If you run SB Chalice of the Void @ 1 against combo, your Lackey still won't get countered if you cast it with Caverns! Oh, and CounterTopWho?
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
A Goblin deck that main-decks Chalice of the Void? What's next? Trinisphere and 2-mana lands?
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
That land is so broken in goblins, it's not funny. Auto 4 off. Question is what to cut. I think the deck needs a minimum 2 mountains. I splashed black for warren weirding and green for nature's claim. Now I think I will cut green and go straight rb. The fact that it doesn't cast weirding kind of sucks, but gotta live with that. Here's my new manabase:
8 fetch
3 badlands
2 mountains
4 waste
2 port
4 cavern
Uncounterable t1 lackey backed up by uncounterable t2 stingscourger FTW!
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
You guys are overreacting here ;) How often does lackey get countered? Yeah sometimes it happens, but usually it gets handled by removal or blocker. In fact sometimes its good to have the lackey forced to trade 1:2 and get the Vial on T2 (or lead with a land drop in case of Daze)
Also the most problematic cards (in the current meta) against us are not counters, its Deed, Lingering Souls, Jitte, to an extend Batterskull, Mother, Elspeth.
Yeah sure it sucks from time to time to have your matron or ringleader countered, but how many game will you lose because you cant cast Tarfire or Weirding or get wasted or Price of Progressed?
As mentioned before. Ill wait how the metagame shifts. At the moment Id add a 1-of to get a nice trick in the control lategame.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
A Goblin deck that main-decks Chalice of the Void? What's next? Trinisphere and 2-mana lands?
Nobody wants to play Chalice in MD, read more carefully before spamming, please.
@ ivanpei and Humphrey:
It's not just about Lackey not being countered. On the long run you can be sure that every important Goblin you want to see on the battle field will actually find his way.
Humphrey is right in that most Goblins die to removal, not to countermagic. However having the opportunity to dodge countermagic even more outweighs those small "drawbacks" of Caverns. I mean: let them use a wasteland on it. So what? it's not like we were screwed because have fewer lands in play. What really can get us is not having the right color when we need it.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Humphrey
In fact sometimes its good to have the lackey forced to trade 1:2 and get the Vial on T2 (or lead with a land drop in case of Daze)
If you want Lackey to get FoW'd, play a Mountain 1st turn.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Humphrey
but how many game will you lose because you cant cast Tarfire or Weirding or get wasted or Price of Progressed?
That's not an issue if you replace your ports (which aren't super strong anymore) with this new land. We never had problems playing the cards you mention with Ports and Wastelands. If it's not making your spells uncounterable, it's for the very least fixing our mana a little bit.
Who knows what crazy multicolor goblins Ravnica 2 will give us?! ;)
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Avatara
Who knows what crazy multicolor goblins Ravnica 2 will give us?! ;)
Pray the lord!
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
My initial reaction to this new land is to play all 4 just by cutting mountains.
It's definitely a strong card for goblins but I don't think it pushes the deck over the top.
What do you guys think about drew levin's deck on his starcity article where he doesn't play any lackeys?
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Humphrey
Also the most problematic cards (in the current meta) against us are not counters, its Deed, Lingering Souls, Jitte, to an extend Batterskull, Mother, Elspeth.
I agree. The actual question is whether the benefit of dodging counters outweighs the drowbacks of getting wasted mana screwed. I agree with Humphrey that this card is meta dependent. You face a lot of U/W or esper? great! you face a lot of maverick? get ready to get mana screwed against their wasteland-sharpshooter knight of the reliquary.
It s definetely worth to give it a try nonetheless.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fimo
I agree. The actual question is whether the benefit of dodging counters outweighs the drowbacks of getting wasted mana screwed. I agree with Humphrey that this card is meta dependent. You face a lot of U/W or esper? great! you face a lot of maverick? get ready to get mana screwed against their wasteland-sharpshooter knight of the reliquary.
What? Mono-red Goblins already ran Ports+Wastes and did quite fine in the past. Wastes+Caverns is Not going to be an issue. You also forget we run Vial. We're not getting Waste-locked.
As for some claiming that removal is the issue... so what? That's why you tutor for Ringleaders and go bonkers. It was an issue in the past because they could blow up vial and then save counters for Matron. That won't be so easy anymore: we can safely cast Matron/Ringleader. They do not have infinite amounts of removal and they will run out of removal before we run out of goblins.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kombatkiwi
What do you guys think about drew levin's deck on his starcity article where he doesn't play any lackeys?
He is on drugs.
The amount of games we just flat out WIN by playing 1st turn Lackey on the play is absurd.
Arguing that Mav/Canadian can block it with cards like Dryad Arbor/Mother of Runes/Mongoose is stupid. I'd gladly trade a T1 Lackey with ANY of those. We're winning if we do. Also, we play removal. We can easily get lots of those out of the board, specially with SB Knesis.
He's right that it is bad on the draw against Mav, and probably against Esper too. But against Canadian, it isn't. They HAVE to trade you 1cc investment 1/1 with something like a blocker, Daze, Burn or even FoW. But that the BEST deal we can make. You rather they just burn something that cost 2 or 3?
You can even G1 agains Mav have dream hands, like Lackey T1, Instigator T2, with ANY removal (from the 9 MD we have), you just won.
Saying that Warchief is a must is also nonsense. It is an awesome card, but by no means is an automatic 4 off. I bet my right arm he haven't even playtested a list with Instigators and Chieftains.
Also, putting Lackeys on the SB is bad too. If you don't want them, just SB them out game 2-3. Easy.
And I don't even want to comment about the manabase...
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Chatting about uncounterable..
I brainstormed the esper matchup and found sulfur elemental, what you guys think? Its great against GW too
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Humphrey
Chatting about uncounterable..
I brainstormed the esper matchup and found sulfur elemental, what you guys think? Its great against GW too
If it's a goblin, sure.
If not, no. Seriously.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Maybe I missed this in the fervor over Cavern of Souls, but I don't think anyone has mentioned another benefit to running it.
The current "best" goblin-shaped artifact hate for the Chieftain (mono-r) build is TukTuk Scrapper. With some number of Cavern of Souls we can more easily run Tin Street Hooligan without actually splashing green. Not only is he a 2/1 body two turns faster, he also lets us blow up a turn 2-3 Jitte before it gets loaded with counters.
Of course there are problems with this since Cavern isn't fetchable, but I'm looking forward to testing it out.
I'll be testing Caverns over Mountains for now since I don't run Port in my current build.
Now all we need is a nice 1-2 CMC goblin that destroys a white creature when it enters play *hint hint wizards*.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Humphrey
Chatting about uncounterable..
I brainstormed the esper matchup and found sulfur elemental, what you guys think? Its great against GW too
Goblin Sharpshooter is just better. Playing 1 MD and 1 SB should be enough against Tokens.
