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All of this is true. I do notice that Elspeth is getting stranded in my hand with Thalia in the deck now, with Teeg it wasn't such a big deal, but now with 3-4 hatebears its becoming more common to have it stranded in hand. I may simply swap her out to the sideboard for the 3rd Thalia maindeck.
Besides the interaction between Fauna Shaman, Loyal Retainers, and Iona/Elesh; I believe Fauna Shaman has some merit on it's own. Having a pseudo Survival of the Fittest is never a bad thing. It allows us to run situational cards like a one-of Stoneforge Mystic, Linvala, Aven Mindcensor, and Thalia that we can tutor for specific situations.
For example, you have 4 mana and your opponent plays a merchant scroll/infernal tutor. You sack a creature in your hand and search up the aven mindcensor and cast it to prevent their combo from continuing. You can also break up stalemates by fetching up the stoneforge mystic and grabbing either sword of light and shadow or a Jitte.
I'm going to be testing something close to the list below this weekend. Let me know what you think as it's a rough draft right now. I also listed some options if you did not want to play the Loyal Retainers plan.
Lands (22):
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Gavony Township
4 Wasteland
4 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Gaea’s Cradle
1 Karakas
Creatures (26):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Terravore
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Fauna Shaman
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Loyal Retainers ---> Could replace with 3rd Pridemage
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria ---> Could replace with Stoneforge
Spells (12):
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Sideboard (15):
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite ---> Could replace with 2nd Linvala
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Choke
2 Path to Exile
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Parallax Wave
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Gut Shot
Isn't Elesh Norn a better maindeck target right now?
Seems like a meta game call. Maybe he sees less aggro irl.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Sun
Elesh Norn is great in the mirror and versus swarm decks. The mirror is beatable game one if you know what you are doing. It normally ends up as a grindy game and fauna shaman can turn your Noble Hierarchs into a Terravore or into a Knight. Against the swarm decks the mainboard Jittes help. Our worst match is combo based strategies which is where Iona comes into play. Most combo if you name a specific color it is impossible for them to win game one. Even in some of the swarm decks like goblins, if Iona is out naming red then you have basically won the game. This can also happen with Pox, Burn, High tide, and some versions of storm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Sun
I guess I would rather have the Iona to slightly improve the match ups that are tougher for the deck to win against than having an Elesh Norn that completely blows out decks that we have a better match up against.
Quick question for you guys.
I'm going to a 1000$ tourney this weekend and i'm planning on playing maverick. I've never been a fan of aven minscensor and i'm seriously thinking of removing the 2 i got maindeck. As a replacement, i would probably go with a 4th qasali pridemage and maybe a terravore or linvala, keeper of silence. What you guys think of all this ? got any other suggestions ? I would've liked to add a 3rd scavenging ooze but just can't find another one in time.
Definitely run Terravore. The 4th Qasali Pridemage is a bit excessive. If you expect to see a lot of other Maverick lists then I would run Linvala main with a Terravore.Quote:
Originally Posted by mordraid
If you expect much maverick then i would run 3 mindcensors... terravore can easily be countered by scavenging ooze
Terravore is a bomb against the mirror. Scavenging Ooze takes time to remove lands from BOTH graveyards and it doesn't even gain counters from doing so. An opposing Maverick player would much rather remove creatures first before hitting lands and then they would probably prioritize playing other creatures out besides the Ooze before eating their opponent's lands. Plus removing lands from your own graveyard is terrible as it shrinks your Knights. Terravore having trample is most definitely relevant and an early game Terravore that's a 6/6 can normally win on it's own if the opponent has not progressed in board state.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wasteland
Aven Mindcensor isn't that great in the mirror either. It's why people keep cutting it. It's normally a turn or two too slow and can die from a Jitte. The two damage in the air is normally gained right back from a Sword of Light and Shadow, Batterskull, Jitte, or Scavenging Ooze. Aven Mindcensor is too cute to be worthwhile in the mirror as it just stops fetchs, Knight Activations, and GSZ. Linvala is much better at shutting down an opponents Maverick deck and it's only one more mana.
Yeah and bouncable via Karakas...
Seriously, dont tell me how "bad" mindcensor is in the mirror... i think its one of the most important cards in the mirror and i cant count the games which i just won cause of this flyer...
That they magically draw? Not like they can Knight for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wasteland
Point taken, but Linvala is a stronger play if your opponent is trying to top deck a Karakas compared to when you are trying to top deck a Jitte, Scryb Ranger, Batterskull, or Scavenging Ooze to answer Aven Mindcensor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wasteland
I have played with Mindcensor and I put him in the same category as Thalia. It's nice against certain decks but other times I just don't want to see it. In Maverick, he is primarily a flyer and without any equipment it just doesn't do enough. Two damage per turn is nice but is easily trumped by a Knight, Terravore, or Equipped/Exalted creature and the gain life from Jitte, Batterskull, and Ooze makes his damage negligible.
Oh god no! I can just refer to my post on the last page...
Why would you want to cut the Aven? He is a bomb in many games. Ever flashed one into an Intuition? Ever manascrewd Opponents? Ever "shut" down their knights? Oh hell why would you cut this cards. Okay you can cut it DOWN to 2 but thats it.
Because it's unreliable at doing all of those? I've played plenty of games with Aven and plenty without. Never missed her and all of the awesome scenarios you describe don't happen nearly as often as you think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp802
*Surrender* Sometimes you just cannot help people get the optimum of a deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
People are going to create their own opinions. Some Maverick players like the deck due to it's consistency and Aven Mindcensor cannot consistently do what you describe. It falls short of the decks standard. This being said I still believe it does have a slot in the Fauna Shaman version of the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp802
Results with Aven: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/bus...ide=&strict=onQuote:
Originally Posted by Philipp802
Results without Aven: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/bus...ide=&strict=on
Since Feb 1 with 65+ players.
I don't think you can say that Aven is required or optimal. The fact that someone who supports Sigarda also supports Aven makes me question all of their suggestions.
As I am not a fan, believer, disciple or whatever of this Fauna-Maverick-lists I cannont judge whether he is good there or is not. But okay let analyse him a little...
What are Maverick's bad MUs? Mostly Combo-Decks.
Our Birdie is doing excactly what this deck needs - it needs an undercosted and good creature that battles our bad MUs. You all know what cards it hinder - just to name a few, Infernal Tutor, Intuition...
You might say Iona handles this aswell? Well, even if the Aven comes T2-3 it is a lot faster than this Fauna-Shaman-Building-Thingie-Whatever. So it is faster, but okay it is not as effective as Iona. But when does this care? Legacy is a lot about tempo and speed and I would always take the Bird over this Iona-Thingie.
You say Aven makes Maverick less consistent? No it doesnt, It isnt as conditional as you would like it to be. You can play it on your opponents second turn at best to hinder him playing Fetchlands which is a huge move, especially for Maverick. Aven gives this deck flexibility to interact with the stack, to actually CAST something in response.
Even though the Stoneblade-MU is good Aven helps a lot there aswell.
This card is good in the Mirror. No Matter what you are going to say. It shuts off Stoneforge, hinders Knight+Fetchlands, and shuts of the "combo" of this Fauna-Shaman, which hopefuly noone is playing soon any more.
It even has some extra-applications: It blocks Delvers like a Champ and can be quite nice due to its Flashing Ability. It does carry equipment over the enemy lines and hits for quite a lot considering the Equipbonus+Exalted+2 of the birds strength.
If this does not convince you, we might be playing different decks in any way.
Why are you comparing Fauna Shaman to Aven Mindcensor?
If you want to fight Combo: Gaddock Teeg, Thalia
If you want to fight Maverick: Linvala (I understand that all opponents magically draw their Karakas all the time, but still...)
If you want to beat Stoneblade and need Aven: Practice more or run SoLaS
If you want to block Delvers: Rock out. Trading your 3 drop for their 1 drop sounds awesome
If you want an unreliable, semi-answer that you get to play as an instant, so it's obviously much better: Play Aven
If you want to fight Combo: Gaddock Teeg, Thalia - Or play these two AND Aven!
If you want to fight Maverick: Linvala (I understand that all opponents magically draw their Karakas all the time, but still...) - Linvala is only good against Maverick, Aven is good versus so many things.
If you want to beat Stoneblade and need Aven: Practice more or run SoLaS - I said that this MU is already easy, but it makes it even more a Bye.
If you want to block Delvers: Rock out. Trading your 3 drop for their 1 drop sounds awesome - I would love to block a 1 drop with a 3 drop. Never felt the pressure of an early Delver?
If you want an unreliable, semi-answer that you get to play as an instant, so it's obviously much better: Play Aven - Yes I want an answer to so many different strategies at instant-speed. That is why I play it.