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As others have said, it's not good if you're looking to build multiple viable archetypes. The closest thing to Nic Fit is Rock, and after that it's Eva Green.Quote:
Originally Posted by DroidX
Still, if you say yes to all the following questions, then Nic Fit is the deck for you:
1. Do you like bomby spells and creatures?
2. Do you like ripping your opponent's hand and board to shreds?
3. Do you love doing the above again and again and again?
Ramp. Disruption/Removal. Recursion.
Im more interested in having a deck that i can just add to as time goes on VS having multiple decks. As for the learning curve or overall difficulty the others have mentioned, I NEVER BACKDOWN FROM A CHALLENGE!!!!....Ok but no seriously the deck seems like fun so ill learn as i go. Now to answer your questions...Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner
1.yes
2.YES
3.sure
Now for a question of my own. What makes this deck as hard to play as everyone says it is? Does it just not compete with the top dogs? Does it lack a big threat?
I can tell from experience with a ALA-ZEN T2 deck called Riddlebox (homebrew on the Wizards forum) that the difficulty for this deck stems from it being a non-blue control deck. Your only answer to combo is disruption, and your only answer to aggro is removal. You can't just pay a life and exile a card to stop their most prominent play before it even resolves, whether that is a Goyf or a Dread Return. You have to be proactively defensive, anticipate what their key plays will be, and use removal and disruption wisely.
Another hard thing is knowing the meta and the decks played so you know what cards to hit with Cabal Therapy. Blind Therapy is HARD!
Idk that the deck is 'hard' to play, but I think each turn/play is hard to optimize given the deck is tap-out control with so many lines/abilities to shift gears. One needs to consider a lot of known/assumed information to play the deck to it's highest potential. Namely Sensei's Diving Top and Cabal Therapy are two of the most skill testing cards in the format.Quote:
Originally Posted by DroidX
It competes with the 'fair' top decks, the deck can grind wins against Maverick, UW Blade/Miracle, and RUG. The deck is soft to Storm combo and can lose to fast Reanimator or Show and Tell, though running Innocent Blood and/or Liliana pads the latter match up nicely. Dredge can god-draw you, but with Pulses, Deeds, and SB Extirpate Nic Fit can take on average Dredge draws.
It's big threat is Veteran Explorer. I've taken to running 4 Green Sun's Zenith in all my color combinations; with 2 Innocent Blood and 2 Phyrexian Tower - providing 8 Explorers and 8 sac outlets, with the larger package devoted to ensuring the engine fires I find the core plan of Deed into Titans seems to be firing more consistently.
As they said, it is a tapout control deck essentially. Basically you need to be good at using your resources as you need them. We don't have brainstorm to just refill our hand so every move we make is key. If they have 2 cards in their hand but 1 card that is bad for you, you must determine which is better, gaining the card advantage by therapy 2 of their cards, or stopping their one best threat. If they have two that are bad for you you should determine Which one is tougher to deal with for your current hand. You need to be sure to make sure every top use the cards are put in the right order and manage your shuffle effects. If you play walkers you need to know when to Plus and when to minus. A of this just goes to being a good technical player but some is also knowing your deck inside and out and how every interaction works.
I picked this deck for Legacy due to its lower buy-in cost of only needing 3-4 duals to function, it was Rock, and the fact that it has a good fight against almost every deck in Legacy other than Emrakul.dec.
Its not that hard to play this deck, more so learning the optimal play trees your hand is capable of and how to work Cabal Therapy properly. There are a few intricacies with late game plays, but those come with practice.
It might be "hard to play" because a lot of noobs pick up the deck and don't know how to work it, then flounder in their tournaments.
As from Cairo said, it isn't "hard to play" per se. Anybody can pick up the deck and win some games on the back of Deed + Titan or whatever.
It's a non blue control deck that uses some of the most skill intensive cards in the format. Sensei's Divining Top and Cabal Therapy, along with a Green Sun's Zenith toolbox make for an incredible amount of versatility and options at every point in the game. The deck wins by grinding out the opponent with card quality. You need to be able to optimize your plays given all of those tools. That's the tricky part that comes with practice and learning the metagame. Learning the format and figuring out what's important in any given matchup is just as important as technical play.
Problem for us?
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...98042511_n.jpg
If it shuts off Explorer and other dying effects then yes. Otherwise, it still won't come out turn 1 (unless you're playing an asshole with Deadguy) so we can therapy for it and it doesn't come out as fast as Leyline. We don't rely on the graveyard as much besides Therapy, so we can fight through it just fine.
Judge friend says that it does shut off Explorer...so we might need to load up on 1cc discard out of the sideboard when this card starts getting a lot of play. Although GSZ -> Harmonic Sliver is still boss
This could also be usefull against other graveyard decks. Especially with a rector build where you can time the card a bit better.
If u want to play it (which i would not do) you have to keep in mind that any future rector's/witness action is shut off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire_dk
If people will pick up this card we need to be prepared for it, it basically shuts off Explorer, Rector, Witness, Sun Titan's effect, Cabal Therapy flashback, Recurring Nightmare and probably more.
Agreed, I think we'd be better off fetching Leyline of the Void or Scavenging Ooze. This card is a pretty strong hose against us...it doesn't cripple us, but often something that needs to be answered.Quote:
Originally Posted by vennie
Do you really worry about it? I guess you want to play some number of Abrupt Decay in your 75. Along with pulse and deed you should be able to remove it. You explorer first most of the time anyway and if not possible than remove RIP first. Might loose some GY in the process but also the opponent spends a card and 2 mana for something that does not hit your face or enable a sick combo. Also the top decks playing white (Maverick, UW) use the graveyard to some extend.
Okay -- report & thoughts:
So, as I've mentioned a few times, I've been getting over some kind of strange illness that I acquired last Wednesday after leaving my window open overnight. I love cold fall night air, but unfortunately it never loves me back, and this ends up happening every year because I never learn my lesson. I assumed that it was a cold, but it's now traveled to basically every part of my system in order, so I have no idea what it was. I have like one or two little symptoms left and am otherwise healthy now, so I don't really care either.
But yeah. I woke up Saturday morning and felt like shit, after feeling pretty well Friday. Awkward. I just kind of sat around and hated life until it was time to go, and then I forced myself to pack my bag and hopped in my car. I'd decided that whichever version I didn't play at Vestal (reminder: I played Rector), I would play at my local -- thus, Scapewish time.
We only had enough people for 4 rounds + cut to top 4, sadly, because it seems like literally everyone in the three playgroups that compose my local area ended up having other stuff that they had to do (anniversaries, birthdays, homework, helping friends move, gf aggro, etc). Also, my local store has always had a noticeably less than blue meta, to the point where oftentimes there's like one set of Forces in the entire top 8. For whatever reason, people around here have never liked blue...they like fringe decks more (we have two enchantress players, an imperial painter, DnT, zombardment, bant control, etc etc etc. it's weird). Well, for some reason, people felt like playing FoW this month, as literally half the room was either on U/W Miracles or U/W/x Blade. I'm fine with this.
Somewhere around the time the first round starts I discover that I'm feeling feverish. At this point I'm here, I'm battling, and there's nothing I'm going to do about it either way, so I just shrug and play through it.
R1: Gift Fit.
Because we play round 1 every freaking event that we're both at.
I end up just doing what Scapewish does in the mirror, and plow through him really easily in like 10 minutes for both games. Nothing cool to report here, sadly.
1-0/2-0.
R2: 4c Counterbalance homebrew
This guy is a brewing madman, and I've played against a lot of his concoctions. This was one of his better attempts -- it was basically a Jace/Liliana control deck that used Counterbalance to generate virtual CA while using Bob/Top for legit CA. Goyf, Snap, and Bolt kept the board clear and punched in ftw. I actually really liked his deck, though IMO it needs some refining.
Anyway, he builds his board while I ramp g1. I can read that he has Force in hand from his body language, so I bait his FoW with a Burning Wish, then resolve Scapeshift from the top of my deck thanks to my Sensei. (BOW-TO-YOUR-SENSEI). He dies a fiery breath from 36 points of angry mountains.
I bring in REBs, because derp. I could have brought in the Thoughtseizes, but I decided that it would dilute the deck too much in this matchup -- his nonblue control cards I just didn't care about.
We do a bit of a cat-and-mouse g2. I end up getting out Primeval for both Valakuts, but he has a ton of Cliques to rip my hand apart. He kills Primeval, and I end up slow-rolling Valakut over the next few turns FTW.
2-0/4-0.
R3: U/W Blade
This guy tends to top every local, just like me! I've seen him a fair amount, only lost to him once though -- he had a Stoneforge godhand into fast Sword of F/F with tons of counter backup (and Jace). It was awkward.
Anyway, we have like a 30 minute g1. I make a bunch of Huntmasters for board presence, while he has some Stoneforges and Equipment. He Swords one of my Huntmasters when I pass the turn to flip them, but the other flip happens and kills his Stoneforge. He flashes in Batterskull and puts Jitte on it. I drop Primeval from my hand now that he's tapped out, it resolves and grabs Valakut x2 with mountain count at 4. He Tops into Terminus and shunts everything to the bottom. I do some stuff and then Wish for Scapeshift, he Cliques it away as I didn't have mana to cast it the same turn. At some point I manage to get him tapped out enough that I can Deed away his Batterskull. He makes a Jace. I finally hit another Scapeshift when Jace is at 11, and he doesn't have a counter for it. He had Wasted one of my Valakuts, however, which meant that my Scapeshift was actually for exact damage. Stupid game.
G2 I boarded in REBs and Thoughtseizes. He keeps a land-heavy hand, and proceeds to draw into more land while I ramp like a mofo and Scapeshift all over his face. Highlight of the game: He counterspelled my Huntmaster while I had R open and a REB in hand. I chose not to fight over it. He then tapped out for a Jace, and I successfully REB'd it. That felt awesome. I never get tired of REBing Jace.
3-0/6-0.
R4: Combo Elves
This guy went like 25 minutes over time (on turn 0) because turns fell just as he was starting his combo turn. He'd been loaned the deck and was just kind of durdling his way through it, but was doing well with it regardless. My r2 opponent had him in a really awkward board state where the Elves player was dead on board unless he won that turn. It took him forever, but he managed it. I didn't particularly feel like putting myself through the combo elves matchup, even though he was exhausted and new to the deck. Also, I was starving and my fever was starting to catch up to me. So we ID'd. I went to Dairy Queen and got a hot dog and a vanilla ice cream cone, which was amazing until my stomach started to get upset. FML.
I'm in 2nd going into top 4, which meant that I would have played my r3 opponent again. The other matchup would have been combo elves vs Miracles. Top 4 agreed to split, however, as the prize payout was such that the only way to get more than the split was to win the event (90/50/35/35, split for 52.5). I probably could have been an ass and just taken the whole event down, but I decided that I'd rather go home and relax where I didn't have to worry about the possibility of getting more sick 45 minutes from home. If I was playing as well as I was and I -wasn't- sick, I would have definitely been "that guy" and probably walked out with 90 instead of 52, but whatever.
Few things about Scapewish --
I changed the board for this event. I cut the Arenas and the Pulverize for 3 Thoughtseizes, because a lot of people locally like to bring combo decks to this event because of the aforementioned usual lack of FoW, and I wanted to at least have a shot vs combo. Naturally nobody brought combo, so I didn't get a chance to test them out.
Bonfire continues to impress in concept, and be passable in execution...largely because I only saw one the entire day, vs Gift Fit r1, where it took out a Jace. If I'd played against combo elves, however, I would have felt very good to have them in my deck, because if I hit one, that's pretty much game...elves can't handle Bonfires -and- Deeds.
Huntmaster is still amazing. He's lifegain, board presence, beatdown or stall, reach, AND removal in one card. I don't know what more you could want, honestly. Olivia seems good in concept, but I dislike that she can't be Green Sunned, and Scapewish doesn't have the ability to run a lot of like the Diabolic Intents and stuff that other versions run to find her (and if you could, you'd just find Scapeshift and win on the spot anyway). And frankly, I think Huntmaster is just better.
Wanting the Scavenging Ooze main is fine, but I'm going to stick with 3 Hunts/3 Elves/61 as my configuration (I list those three because that's what a lot of people seem to like changing). Wood Elves still fixes your mana, chumps, and ramps, while acting as a lategame way to trigger active slow-rolled Valakuts (I've killed Jaces with Wood Elves). Huntmaster is still the literal shit. 61 cards is still correct in decks that thin themselves as much as Nic Fit does, and that also run Top, GSZ, and a million other ways of creating redundancy.
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So, I'm trolling Salvation this morning, and I see this guy:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...hmentid=135734
Look at Deathrite Shaman, lower right-hand corner. Instant staple for our deck? Everyone who had a hard-on for the Dryad Militant, here you go. This is OUR Dryad Militant. It ramps just as well as a Birds does, it shocks your opponent while pissing off Snapcaster, and it Oozes for twice the life. Obvious drawback: it has to tap to do these things. However, in my mind, this fixes one of the problems of Ooze: not having enough green mana consistently to abuse it. It still has the other problem that Ooze does (it's just going to get removed ASAP). However, it's also a 1-drop compared to Ooze's 2, which does actually matter (I'm looking at Reanimator specifically here).
I think that it will probably see play as a 1-of alongside Ooze, but not in place of it. That way you can grab this guy early while you're developing board state, use him to ramp or annoy Snapcasters, eat lands for KotR while ramping into Deed, whatever. Then lategame you can grab Ooze when you have a ton of green mana to abuse him, and use Ooze more as a post-deed threat than as a pre-deed annoyance. Ooze is the hook while this Shaman is the needle. Etc.
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@deck is hard, yo -- A lot of people have summed up this already. I'll add a little more.
Pros:
-) If you're a standard player, you probably have cards for this deck already.
-) Even if you don't, it's a pretty cheap deck to build unless you're building Rector (Moat and Nether Void are expensive as fuck). As far as Legacy goes, anyway.
-) This deck will teach you the format. Literally. You can't play this deck without learning the whole format, because you have to know what your opponents are doing to know how to play around them.
Cons:
-) Difficulty level.
-) Specificity of cards acquired. Like others have said, most cards that see play in Nic Fit aside from duals/fetches -only- see play in Nic Fit. Here's looking at you, $15 Recurring Nightmare.
-) Tied in with difficulty level: you're going to lose a lot. If you don't like losing, don't play this deck.
I should probably explain that last.
Nic Fit is a deck that takes FOREVER to master to the point where you can start winning with it. I've said it before and I'll say it again: most of the people in here that do well with the deck (top 8s/4s/wins) are the people that have been playing it the longest. The deck has a pretty negative opinion in the legacy community at wide because of this, in my experience anyway. Most people that play the deck are terrible, so the blue-playing elitists in the format are like ERMAGERD THIS DECK IS BRRRRRD. If you can deal with that, then by all means, welcome to the club. It's fine for a spike to play this deck, as long as it's a -patient- spike. If you're willing to endure a period where you WILL do terribly at events, then more power to you.
As for why it's so hard, non-blue control deck is part of the puzzle. In my opinion, the other part is the fact that our lines of play are by design longer than I think any non-combo deck in the format (I include Enchantress as combo). We have more mana to work with, and more decision trees every turn as a result. Things can get pretty complicated pretty quickly in this deck, even when you -aren't- taking your opponent into consideration. Obvious Therapy comments, etc.
It's worth mentioning that Nic Fit isn't "hard" in the traditional sense that a deck like High Tide is hard. The difficulty lies in the complexity of its reactive choices compared to its proactive ones. If you can survive to late game, any monkey can ride Sun Titan + Pernicious Deed vs RUG or Maverick (or half the other decks in the format). Swinging with Baneslayer doesn't take a lot of skill. Surviving to pull off these broken end-games, however, is where the challenge is, and it's where most people playing the deck fail.
So yeah, TL'DR everyone else is right, but consider the sheer amount of planning that goes into every turn with this deck. There's a reason neophytes with this deck go to time CONSTANTLY. Your opponent is only your second-worst enemy.
@Alexeezay -- Here's the mana base I devised for the 4c Gifts version I've been experimenting with:
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Reflecting Pool
1 Murmuring Bosk
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Plains
It looks terrible, I know. But it works. Of all the problems the deck has been having in testing, the mana base has not been one of them. Reflecting Pool is absolutely amazing, and I can't recommend it highly enough as a 2-of in 4c versions. Bosk was better when there was a Wood Elves in the deck, but it's still a tri-land and Pool can effectively give it "haste." It's still a little green mana light for my tastes, but if it ain't broke, I guess. Keep in mind that the deck runs 2 Coiling Oracles and 2 Strix, which could influence the mana base's stability.
@Rest in Peace -- one of these days it's going to just become impossible for graveyard decks to effectively exist. This is way more dangerous to formats in general than Grafdigger's Cage ever was.
Its most likely place of adoption is going to be in Enlightened Tutor side-boards. I'm thinking of Maverick in particular, since while it keeps their KotRs small, it'll hurt the decks they're bringing it in vs a hell of a lot more...same principle of how Rector boards in Humility.
DnT is another likely point of use, but most DnT decks are dropping the ET board going forward in favor of Militant and Familiar. Otherwise...I dunno. One of the best ET control decks, Thopter-Sword, is sure as hell not gonna want to use it. U/W control has hard-ons for Snapcaster and/or Dust Bowl + Crucible, so they probably won't want it.
It's a very dangerous card for us, but I don't think it'll have a home. As mentioned, GSZ->Harmonic Sliver is the go-to answer. Deed will also solve the problem, although it exiles the Deed that kills it. Maelstrom Pulse, discard, etc. It's not an "archetype-killer" or anything. In some ways it's less dangerous than Leyline of the Void -- it doesn't everything Leyline does, but it doesn't come out for free on t1. If we're on the play, they won't be able to stop us from our first Explorer + double Therapy.
And no, Rector never wants to play this.
@Sherko -- if you have the card pool to build it, you're going to want Rector. It's the best vs Sneak/Show, is strong vs tribal and RUG, and has at least passable/positive matchups vs everything else on that list. I'd stay far away from Scapewish in that meta. A BUG variant might work, but BUG is so fluid right now that I don't know what I'd recommend in that regard.
@Architect -- Lesson of the day: when fighting Maverick with Rector, don't board Humility in. It took me a lot of very painful losses to learn that. It seems like something that would be good vs Maverick, since you see a lot of other decks board in Humility vs them all the time. We're not other decks, though, and our matchup vs them is actually a lot better when we have access to our broken creatures. Sure, their shit is all really annoying, but a lot of our creatures just shit on them. Only bring in Humility when vs creature-based combo like Sneak/Show or Reanimator, and you'll live a much happier life vs Maverick.
You don't want 3 Tribe-Elders, no matter how much you think you do. I've tried it, and it crosses that narrow, invisible line in the sand where you end up drawing too many blanks mid-late game. 2 is perfect -- you naturally draw them enough to be happy, but you don't see them often when you don't want to.
One day, you'll be a believer in the power of the Rusalka. Just wait. :P
I suspect that if you'd played against tribal, you would have been much happier with Dueling Grounds. As you said, that's about the best non-moat Moat that you'll be able to find. Curse of Exhaustion is pretty atrocious, but it's passable if you lack access to Nether Void. Void is better in every way, though.
@XdeckX -- gj! Beating OmniTell is a good win.If you'd wanted to be an ass you probably could have played out the finals and taken the whole thing down -- Miracles is a much better matchup for Scapewish than most people give it credit for. Also, your R2 is an example of why Scapewish is awesome. You can seriously squeak out games you have absolutely no business winning, just because Scapeshift is that strong.
Okay, I think I've responded to pretty much everything. I'm going to just let the playstyle thing die again, because I think that's a topic that has entirely too much potential to warp the thread away from the actual development of the deck. I've largely said my piece, and if people want to engage me in a discussion on the topic, PMs exist. Let's not dilute this more than we have to.
Oh, one final thing: here's my rough first-draft for post-RtR BUG fit:
4x Explorer
2x Strix
3x Oracle
2x E. Wit
1x Tusk
1x Primeval
4x Therapy
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Counterspell
2x GSZ
3x Top
3x Deed
1x Future Sight
2x Fact or Fiction
2x Jace TMS
2x Vraska
1x Garruk PH
1x Volrath
1x Phy Tower
3x Bayou
2x Trop
1x Sea
3x Forest
3x Island
2x Swamp
3x Misty
3x Verdant
Again, it's very rough, but that's what I'm looking at. I do know that whatever shell I end up building BUG Fit around, it's going to be abusing Future Sight + Top, because it's just that retarded. Such a strong engine, especially for a Nic Fit deck. Facts are probably the weakest cards on the list, but I have a soft spot for it. They'll very likely not survive to the final list though, once my desire to have a solid deck capable of winning overcomes my desire to force people to make Fact piles -.-
I tried Future Sight 2 or 3 weeks ago in a little 4-round tournament (going 2-2 with an awesome 4 color list that is pretty bad :P) and it's really just not needed. In BUG you have no way of tutoring it besides cantripping into it and you'll generally be happier to find a Jace or Consecrated Sphinx, because those get alot of CA, win the game and don't cost a million mana + information for what you draw.
Also i should note i went top 4 with Rector 2 weeks ago and top 4 with BUG last week playing this list:
Mainboard (60)
22 Lands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
14 Creatures
4 Baleful Strix
1 Consecrated Sphinx
2 Eternal Witness
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Veteran Explorer
22 Other spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Gifts Ungiven
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Planeswalkers
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Karn Liberated
I missed some Jaces because mine were in the mail so i could only play 1, so i decided to try Vendilion Clique, which was quite bad.
Overall the deck performed quite well, i lost to Maverick because he topdecked an Elspeth on an empty board with both of our hands empty (me Deeding his board turn before) and soon killed me with that going 1-2
And i lost to UW Blade after having to mull to 5 both times getting 0 lands in the first 2 >.>
My changes for next time are -3 Vendilion Clique -1 Phyrexian Arena +2 Jace +1 Gifts + 1 something.
Ps. Sideboard:
Sideboard (15)
1 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Innocent Blood
1 Memoricide
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Telemin Performance
3 Thoughtseize
Never sided the Telemin Performance because i havent played combo, but it's good against creatureless decks aswell as S&S.
Am I the only one who's Jaw dropped when I saw the shaman? This dude is ridiculous. Like I am considering running multiples. Holy wtf why is he a thig?!
*whoseQuote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
/end routine grammarnazi :P
But yeah. I think this is WotC's answer to the people that are crying to Ooze to be reprinting in standard. This is the closest to an in-set Ooze reprint we're ever going to see. I don't know about running multiples, though. It isn't Ooze -- it can't win a game by itself. It can ramp, but its ramp is questionable because it's basically dependent on the number of fetchlands in graveyards. Or if they waste you, but that's kind of derpy. His other two abilities are nice and will add up over time, but I see him more as a bullet than as a multiple-slot contender. Hell of a bullet, though, for sure.
The Shaman is slow and doesn't grow in size like the Ooze does. There's been many games where the Ooze becomes the fatty on the field, serving a dual purpose to shrink graveyards and slowly develop into a large blocker, where Shaman has no chance at combat. Also, the fact that Ooze can immediately eat things and gain you life is very relevant.
The low cost (GSZ turn 2, active turn 3) and mana accelerating while shrinking KotR is very intriguing, however. I'll be interested to see how the Shaman works out here.