Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alex Holland
4
I had a dream last night it involved cutting 4 chalice for 4 defense grid!!!!!!!
A instant isnt really interesting if its a sorcerey- plus maybe 3-4 greaves and sorceries dont matter at all because you still can activate your metalworker or kuldotha safely. Plus your counter care free with essentialy 8 trinisphere like effects on the defense. Plus you can go play 1 mana cards again (interested in pithing needle, the untap artifact, expedition map and senseis top) Im gonna try it! :eek:
Welcome back NAmeless One, we can use some fresh input in MUD!
Something like this maybe?
4x cloudpost
4x glimmerpost
3x vesuva
4x ancient tomb
4x city of traitors
4x mishra's factory
1x eye of ugin
2x scroll rack (aaah its so nice)
3x expedition map
2x candelabra of tawnos
3x lightning greaves
1x staff of domination
4x trinisphere
4x defense grid
3x ugin, spirit dragon
4x metalworker
3x kuldotha
4x wurmcoil engine
1x emrakul, aeons thorn
1x steel hellkite
1x blightsteel collosus
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Here's what i'm running currently:
Main:
4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Scuttling Doom Engine
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Spine of Ish Sah
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Tangle Wire
4 Grim Monolith
3 Lotus Petal
2 Lightning Greaves
3 Daretti, Scrap Savant
2 Ugin, Spirit Dragon
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Great Furnace
4 Darksteel Citadel
SB:
2 Spellskite
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Trinisphere
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Sundering Titan
1 Staff of Domination
1 Platinum Emperium
1 Mindslaver
Any thoughts?
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Here's the list I intend to run this weekend:
Main:
4x Daretti, Scrap Savant
1x Blightsteel Colossus
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
2x Lightning Greaves
4x Kuldothat Forgemaster
4x Metalworker
1x Mindslaver
1x Myr Battlespher
1x Platinum Angel
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Staff of Domination
1x Sundering Titan
1x Thousand-Year Elixer
4x Trinishpere
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3x Wurmcoil Engine
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
4x City of Traitors
3x Darksteel Citadel
4x Great Furnace
2x Mountain
Side:
3x Whipflare
1x Ensnaring Bride
2x Jester's Cap
1x Platinum Emperion
2x Spellskite
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Sundering Titan
3x Torpor's Orb (Defense Grid if I get 2x more)
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
(nameless one)
Hey guys,
I have awfully been quiet from this thread. I am planning on updating the primer but I have little material since I haven't really played Legacy in almost a year now.
I was going to do specific matchups but life caught up with me. I am looking for help with matchup analysis between archetypes with 12 post, old school and welder/daretti/moon versions. Also, is the old school (use sol lands+utility lands+mana artifacts) dead in favor of the 12post builds? Also, why isn't Daretti making a splash on the thread. I remember seeing a Daretti Stax deck but it wasn't here on the Source.
I think with the banning of Treasure Cruise, the format will resort back to the midrange meta with splashes of elves and storm-based combo.
Also, I noticed that Hollywood has been posting here. I was a big fan of what he did with Dredge/Manaless Dredge and I am looking forward on his contributions here. While we're on that topic, should there be a separate thread for Welder Builds and Mono-Brown? I find that Welder builds are combo/synergy oriented where as Mono-Brown tends to be brute force with resistor protection.
Anything you guys want to add? Also thanks Alex Holland and Bobmans for keeping the thread alive.
Welcome back and good to hear you want to put effort in updating the Primer. I would be glad to be of some assistance. MUD will always have a special place for me. Can you PM me with the information you are seeking and how you would like to receive it. Coming period i will seek some time to put some effort in writing down material for the Primer.
First of i would like to add that i personally dont think there should be seperate threads for Welder/Cloudpost. Also i invest a lot of time in playing NicFit and i really like that within NicFit the variarity of the builds add some nice thouch into the discussion in that thread and that it keeps the thread more than alive. Also the heart of the lists remain the same and sharing info for the one list could also help adept to other. MUD is in a good place now that the pace of the meta is slowing down plus Ugin really helps making MUD stronger. Also Daretti will get a spot maindeck after i (self) evaluated the Turbo Welder list i played at a small tournament replacing Sensei's Diving Top (making it Turbo Weldaretti...). But i do agree that Welder is typically far more combo orientated then the more controllish Cloudpost variant. Both have its marits and i guess we could call it a meta choice. I found the Welder build very strong versus combo (except S&T based decks) and slower decks, while the Cloudpost variant (with Defense Grids in the board) did a lot better versus Delver based decks in my latest testing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alex Holland
4 vesuvas didnt bother you?
2 staff of domination ---- do you feel its better / more useful with a post mana base?
----
I had a dream last night it involved cutting 4 chalice for 4 defense grid!!!!!!!
A instant isnt really interesting if its a sorcerey- plus maybe 3-4 greaves and sorceries dont matter at all because you still can activate your metalworker or kuldotha safely. Plus your counter care free with essentialy 8 trinisphere like effects on the defense. Plus you can go play 1 mana cards again (interested in pithing needle, the untap artifact, expedition map and senseis top) Im gonna try it! :eek:
Vesuva can also copy your opponents lands, but then they are still slow and holding 2 Vesuva's or 1 Vesuva and 1 City of traitors is really akward. Making the wrong call based on the rest of your hand to mulligan or not can cost you a game. And MUD tends to mulligan really bad.
Defense Grids main could work and random steal games vs blue decks. I think if there are lot of blue decks in the meta it is a very nice call. Also i think that in combination with 3Sphere, Sundering Titan, Wasteland (supported by Vesuva) and Crucible of Worlds is killing with lot of decks depending on 3 colours (and 0 basics). BUT if you have a combo heavy meta (or a total random meta) it can be dangerous and cost you games.
I really like the idea of Candalebra and Expedition Map along with Emrakul/Eye of Ugin. Eye can also fetch artifact creatures which is a solid plus.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
New MUD player here. I'd love to see some sideboard plans with explanations for which cards to take in and out for various matchups. I've played it twice at a local store going 4-0 the first time and 2-1-1 the next. Here's my current list, which is based on the list that top 8'd the NJ GP.
24 LANDS
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Vesuva
2 Wasteland
19 CREATURES
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
2 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Platinum Angel
17 OTHER SPELLS
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination
2 Lightning Greaves
1 voltaic key
SIDEBOARD
1 pithing needle
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 wurcoil engine
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 grafdigger's cage
1 Witchbane Orb
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 ?
I'm also going to give that grindstone/painter servant list a try too since I have the cards.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kaishi
I played at SCG IQ Houston playing MUD. I was the player without Painter/Stone in the deck. My list is as follows:
Main Deck:
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Voltaic Key
3 Lightning Greaves
2 Mox Opal
1 Mox Diamond
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Great Furnace
3 Darksteel Citadel
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
3 Pithing Needle
2 Karn Liberated
2 Spellskite
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Blood Moon
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Staff of Nin
Thank you for the report kaishi, it was very insightful. I agree that cutting trinisphere can make the deck less clunky and I always wanted to make a list without it (but with no success), mostly to bring voltaic key back and avoid self locking. Ugin's printing made it possible and I think your deck is pretty much where the deck is supposed to go. I gonna test your build as soon as I get the cards I'm missing.
I play with a colorless post build, and gonna start using ugin. Do you have any tips on how to deploy it faster without moxen?
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Silverflame
Thank you for the report kaishi, it was very insightful. I agree that cutting trinisphere can make the deck less clunky and I always wanted to make a list without it (but with no success), mostly to bring voltaic key back and avoid self locking. Ugin's printing made it possible and I think your deck is pretty much where the deck is supposed to go. I gonna test your build as soon as I get the cards I'm missing.
I play with a colorless post build, and gonna start using ugin. Do you have any tips on how to deploy it faster without moxen?
Try Lotus Petals instead. Those enable really sic T1 plays (including more consistent T1 Trinisphere, which is killer versus Storm and Dredge. Also Reanimate, Patriot and RUG are gone if they can't answer it with a FoW). Holding them in your hand midgame to fuel Metalworker and boost out extra mana by playing it after enabling Metalworker to help resolve Ugin. With Goblin Welder the Lotus Petals are more synergetic. I've even cut out the 1 off Mox Opal from my Welder build since it didn't add speed to opening hands. But do not cut down Trinisphere. Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void, Lodestone Golem and a 4th permission artifact like Defense Grid, Thorn of Amethyst, Tangle Wire or whatever with a total presence of 14-16 should be present in every 75.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
(nameless one)
While we're on that topic, should there be a separate thread for Welder Builds and Mono-Brown? I find that Welder builds are combo/synergy oriented where as Mono-Brown tends to be brute force with resistor protection.
Welcome back.
I find this separation question difficult. I play both decks and they differ tremendously. I mean, I think 40 out of 60 cards are different in my builds.
But separation might also lead to inactive threads, so I guess maybe it is better to stick together. But sometimes I do have to laugh when people are reacting on each other without realising they are playing totally different decklists. Wonderful confusion :laugh:
I would find it interesting to read on matchup analysis. I would like to help but I'm not playing a "regular" list for both archetypes (red/wit welder/stoneforge-aggro/combo & bridge/cloister-control).
I can say this though:
In a meta with lots of delver, miracles, show&tell, jund, storm I bring my monobrown control version.
In a meta with lots of burn, dredge, affinity, goblins, elves, merfolk, I bring my red/white version.
I've now won a (small) tournament with both versions :cool:
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
I wont harress yall with a new decklist (i feel very creative lately) but currently im running 2 kozilek butcher of truth with 3 quicksilver amulet.
hardcast? ok nice i draw 4 have a nice fatty,
trough quicksilver? end of their turn attack with anihilator 4. :tongue:
quicksilver also is a nice way to get your other business trough counters and with some greaves to go with it seems nice. I think emrakul is a little to expensive at 15 and kozilek as 10 is hardcastable sometimes lategame to refill my hand.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Olo all.
My friend sold out of MUD and I bought into it, so I am now playing MUD. The list below is what I'm kinda thinking of but want some opinions.
CREATURES
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel
1 Steel Hellkite
ARTIFACTS
4 Grim Monolith
1 Staff of Domination
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Lightning Greaves
PLANESWALKERS
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Karn Liberated
LANDS
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Wasteland
4 Cloudpost
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
SIDEBOARD
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Staff of Nin
1 Duplicant
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spellskite
1 Platinum Angel
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Thorn of Am
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
If any of you wanted to play a replacement to Kuldotha Forgemaster in your lists instead of running a full playset, besides Planar Portal , you can play 1 or 2 copies of Ring of Ma'ruf , the Artifact Wish from Arabian Nights. You can get ANY card from your sideboard, including a singleton of Emrakul, or useful lands like Dust Bowl, Karakas, Maze of Ith, or random narrow things like Wildfire , if you're running a list with few red mana sources, but Wishing for Wildfire happens to be a good play, or Smokestack, for weird situational things, ... most people I've talked to misread the card, it is just as fast / slow as a Forgemaster without having a Lightning Greaves on it .
Cast it for 5 mana,
During your upkeep, on your following turn, activate the ability for 5 mana again, it will put the thing into your hand on your next draw. It makes Staff of Domination with infinite mana insanely good if you can't win right away with a blightsteel, you probably could by hardcasting an Emrakul and taking an extra turn with it!
Yes , the total is 10 mana. Ugin is 8, Sundering Titan is 8, and people are hardcasting those. So why not put 1 Emrakul in the side, at least and probably just 1 copy of Ring of Ma'ruf, and you can have random blow outs with uber silver bullets?
you can take any card with it including lands and eldrazi or random red cards like Wildfire .
speaking of which I've wanted to play Wildfire because the deck is already splashing red already
has anyone tried playing cards like Burning Wish?
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
the list I like to play now, regardless of my pet ideas, The only reason I'm not playing Ring of Ma'ruf is because I don't own copies of any cards that I would wish for like Emrakul, Maze, Karakas, otherwise I might try it. In fact to be honest I see no reason not to play 1 copy of Urborg Tomb and 1 copy of Karakas in the main instead of Wasteland for those situations you want to bounce Griselbrand , not kill yourself with Ancient Tomb, and it enters untapped and adds mana. it's not that narrow of a card. Wasteland is pretty useless in this deck. I've considered playing 1 Dust Bowl but I'd rather have Cavern and Mishra's Factory in the main . what I am playing now and don't laugh!
for people who are NOT playing the Cloudposts and playing Welder instead , You could play Jeweled Amulet as a singleton , because it sacrifices to Forgemaster , is rechargeable for 1 mana, is a 0 drop like Mox Opal, Mox Diamond, and Lotus Petal, but you don't need metalcraft or have to pitch a land to it. If you open your 7 with no Sol Land, and your deck doesnt run many of them because you want Daretti or you want Welder or Faithless Looting , a hand lead off with a land producing only 1 mana will enable you to cast a turn 2 Metalworker, and it helps your curve playing around Daze, as I said, without card disadvantage. Even if you lead off playing 2nd expecting a Daze or Spell Pierce it helps you play around those cards early in the game without wasting itself or other cards. I've often used it to help cast metalworker, get it Swords'd , then Wasteland'd or whatever, and being able to charge it for that second time without any artifacts in play for metalcraft has helped me win the game with forgemaster later.
it's the only card that can do those plays. it's an uncommon from Ice Age. it's better than any of the Moxes in Legacy for this deck. I'm only not playing it because of all the comes into play tapped lands that Cloudpost brings into the strategy makes it kind of pointless
LANDS
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Vesuva
2 Mishra's Factory
CREATURES
1 Scarecrone
4 Metalworker
4 Ugin's Construct
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Platinum Angel
1 Sundering Titan
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Blightsteel Colossus
ARTIFACT
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
PLANESWALKERS
1 Karn, Liberated
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
//
I really don't care about my sideboard with this deck at all but what I like to play :
Relic of Progenitus -- Graveyard hate. 2.
Omen Machine -- Kills Miracles
Witchbane Orb -- Kills Storm
Lodestone Golem -- Replace Ugin with 4 of this against Storm and Elves but not anything else.
Silent Arbiter -- Goblins. I think that's it.
Wurmcoil Engine -- Burn, decks playing Liliana , instead of Platinum Angel i guess, jsut an extra two but this deck doens't realy need lifegain anymore , he's another hatecard
Duplicant -- 2-3 of these. for Re-Animator and Show & Tell
Spine of Ish Sah -- for that random guy that brings Solitary Confinement/Enchantress
that's already 15 and they don't change the gameplan all that much there is little to sideboard.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Creativity's fine, but those card choices are extremely suboptimal.
There are much better things to be doing with 4 mana than
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Troll_ov_Grimness
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Troll_ov_Grimness
If any of you wanted to play a replacement to Kuldotha Forgemaster in your lists instead of running a full playset, besides Planar Portal , you can play 1 or 2 copies of Ring of Ma'ruf , the Artifact Wish from Arabian Nights. You can get ANY card from your sideboard, including a singleton of Emrakul, or useful lands like Dust Bowl, Karakas, Maze of Ith, or random narrow things like Wildfire , if you're running a list with few red mana sources, but Wishing for Wildfire happens to be a good play, or Smokestack, for weird situational things, ... most people I've talked to misread the card, it is just as fast / slow as a Forgemaster without having a Lightning Greaves on it .
Cast it for 5 mana,
During your upkeep, on your following turn, activate the ability for 5 mana again, it will put the thing into your hand on your next draw. It makes Staff of Domination with infinite mana insanely good if you can't win right away with a blightsteel, you probably could by hardcasting an Emrakul and taking an extra turn with it!
Yes , the total is 10 mana. Ugin is 8, Sundering Titan is 8, and people are hardcasting those. So why not put 1 Emrakul in the side, at least and probably just 1 copy of Ring of Ma'ruf, and you can have random blow outs with uber silver bullets?
you can take any card with it including lands and eldrazi or random red cards like Wildfire .
Both Planar Portal and Ring of Ma'rûf would be very bad. You can't compare their slowness with the slowness of Forgemaster, while overlooking that Forgemaster puts the chosen card on the battlefield instead of into your hand (and is much more mana intensive). And justifying a tutor's cost using the cost of a game-ending permanents like Ugin, the Spirit Dragon and Sundering Titan is very flawed.
No offense intended.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LOLWut
Creativity's fine, but those card choices are extremely suboptimal.
There are much better things to be doing with 4 mana than
.
Both
Planar Portal and
Ring of Ma'rûf would be very bad. You can't compare their slowness with the slowness of Forgemaster, while overlooking that Forgemaster puts the chosen card on the battlefield instead of into your hand (and is much more mana intensive). And justifying a tutor's cost using the cost of a game-ending permanents like
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon and
Sundering Titan is very flawed.
No offense intended.
Agreed.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LeaPlath
Olo all.
My friend sold out of MUD and I bought into it, so I am now playing MUD. The list below is what I'm kinda thinking of but want some opinions.
CREATURES
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel
1 Steel Hellkite
ARTIFACTS
4 Grim Monolith
1 Staff of Domination
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Lightning Greaves
PLANESWALKERS
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Karn Liberated
LANDS
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Wasteland
4 Cloudpost
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
SIDEBOARD
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Staff of Nin
1 Duplicant
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spellskite
1 Platinum Angel
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Thorn of Am
List looks fine, but..... needs more Ugin ;-)
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LOLWut
Creativity's fine, but those card choices are extremely suboptimal.
No offense intended.
4 mana?
Quicksilver amulet.
4 mana uncounterable wurmcoil/kuldotha/kozilek at end of their turn.
Thats where u can put those 4 mana to work.
@troll, splash green? Living wish? Ancient stirrings?
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alex Holland
4 mana?
Quicksilver amulet.
4 mana uncounterable wurmcoil/kuldotha/kozilek at end of their turn.
Thats where u can put those 4 mana to work.
@troll, splash green? Living wish? Ancient stirrings?
Thing is, quicksilver can still get countered. Cavern of Souls is just fine. Plus playing more things that you actually want is better then to cut room for utility that might do something good.
Ugins construct does nothing. Lodestone Golem is in anyway better for this deck to play. And the argument for "it dies to bolt" i hear sometimes is total crap, because then your doing it wrong. I mean Thalia also dies to bolt and whatnot but i never hear that argument...
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
Thing is, quicksilver can still get countered. Cavern of Souls is just fine. Plus playing more things that you actually want is better then to cut room for utility that might do something good.
Ugins construct does nothing. Lodestone Golem is in anyway better for this deck to play. And the argument for "it dies to bolt" i hear sometimes is total crap, because then your doing it wrong. I mean Thalia also dies to bolt and whatnot but i never hear that argument...
If someone counters quicksilver amulet hes a fool. I have never ever had one countered- thats the thing if everything you play is dangerous they will run out of counters very quick. Thats why i play 4 metalworker; ppl freak out when they see it and do anything to make it go away, even when you have cloudposts and dynamo on the table lol. Plus i abuse quicksilver with 2 kozilek, butcher of truth. Hes cheap enough to power out on its own late game (and refuel the hand) and expensive enough to make a amulet worthy to play (eot, attack anhilate 4). When i have quicksilver and 4 mana ppl dont even dear to attack me anymore :laugh:
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
If he does not counter quicksilver hes a bigger idiot. People will mostly save a bolt or plow to take care of metalworker. Also good players know if it is actually a threat that needs to be taken care of and how. People that freak out on sight do not make a solid threat analysis and will lose because they make stupid choices.
Plus, basicly what you are telling me is that removing Metalworker, Countering Quicksilver Amulet and Wasting a Cloudpost completely shuts down your gameplan.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
If he does not counter quicksilver hes a bigger idiot. People will mostly save a bolt or plow to take care of metalworker. Also good players know if it is actually a threat that needs to be taken care of and how. People that freak out on sight do not make a solid threat analysis and will lose because they make stupid choices.
Plus, basicly what you are telling me is that removing Metalworker, Countering Quicksilver Amulet and Wasting a Cloudpost completely shuts down your gameplan.
So what your claiming is that if a opponent can play 3 " vindicates" (aka land/artifact/creature removal) in response to me my gameplan is affected.
Wow what a analysis by someone who says the dies to removal argument isnt fair. :wink:
