[Deck] Dredge

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

I, personally wouldn't run more than 15 lands in Dredge, because getting flooded with lands that hurt you (like Tarnished and City of Brass) can add damage pretty fast, and LEDless is a full turn slower than LED.

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Getting flooded with lands doesn't actually hurt you. Having 2 and 3 land hands is only ever a good thing, as long as those lands don't come at the expense of good cards. The extra land makes you mulligan less and are more able to fight Wasteland, activate Coliseum and even flashback Faithless Looting. If you are tapping that Citadel, it's because you don't have enough other lands, which means it's straight up better than a card that doesn't do anything for two turns.

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Originally Posted by Niggurath

Hey Vandalize, I did some goldfishing yesterday, and already did some changes: -1 Tarnished Citadel +1 Griselbrand. I like your 2x Dread Return idea, because sometimes I had to dredge almost all the deck in order to find it, so I'll will try -1 Breakthrough +1 Dread Return.

I understand running Griselbrand gives more explosiveness, but here comes a question: isn't it better to run Flame-Kin because it makes you win a turn earlier?

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This is a point that has been bashed over and over in this thread. But here we go again:

If you're able to Dread Return Griselbrand, you'll dredge your whole deck (leaving a few cards not to lose on your next draw step). If you do dredge your whole deck, you'll hit every Bridge from Below, as well as every Cabal Therapy. If you throw 4 Cabal Therapies at your opponent, and make lots of zombies, what are the odds they'll make a come back? Moreover, Griselbrand is a huge threat by his own, as a 7/7 flyer lifelinker.

In order to win with Flame-kin Zealot, you need at least 2 Bridge from Below in your graveyard, and at least 3 bodies to sacrifice for Dread Return (assuming your opponent has no blockers, etc...). So, to deal 21 damage, you'll need 6 zombies + FKZ, which is only achieveable with fast starts (against any competitive deck, at least).

Resuming: Griselbrand gives you 99% chance to win next turn, while FKZ gives you more or less 50% to win in the same turn (those percentages aren't math based, just a random throw). My bet is on Griselbrand.

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Originally Posted by Niggurath

Thank you very much. No tireless tribe? I suppose it's hard to find slots for them.

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I don't think Tireless Tribe has been "removed" from the deck at all, the 16th Land, the 12th Dredger, the 4th Breakthrough, the 4th Cabal Therapy, the Dread Return etc. can all be "trimmed" to include 1-3 Tireless Tribe

Personally, I think

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Coliseum

is going to be more consistent just because you have more T2 Coliseum activations

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

This is a point that has been bashed over and over in this thread. But here we go again:

If you're able to Dread Return Griselbrand, you'll dredge your whole deck (leaving a few cards not to lose on your next draw step). If you do dredge your whole deck, you'll hit every Bridge from Below, as well as every Cabal Therapy. If you throw 4 Cabal Therapies at your opponent, and make lots of zombies, what are the odds they'll make a come back? Moreover, Griselbrand is a huge threat by his own, as a 7/7 flyer lifelinker.

In order to win with Flame-kin Zealot, you need at least 2 Bridge from Below in your graveyard, and at least 3 bodies to sacrifice for Dread Return (assuming your opponent has no blockers, etc...). So, to deal 21 damage, you'll need 6 zombies + FKZ, which is only achieveable with fast starts (against any competitive deck, at least).

Resuming: Griselbrand gives you 99% chance to win next turn, while FKZ gives you more or less 50% to win in the same turn (those percentages aren't math based, just a random throw). My bet is on Griselbrand.

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I think a lot of people also fail to realize just how good drawing 7 cards is, because you now have a hand full of a threats in a zone that can't be disrupted by graveyard hate as easily, which is relevant for whenever your Cabal Therapy gets Surgical Extracted etc.

Don't cut a Therapy for a Tribe.

Having not played without LED (aside from manaless) I'd probably not cut Ichorid for it either, rather the 15th land but then again, 3 Ichorid might very well be enough like it's in LED-Dredge.

Hey, thank you all for the replies.

I think I'll try Vandalize's advice, so the list he suggested but -1 Breakthrough +1 Griselbrand.

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Originally Posted by Niggurath

Hey, thank you all for the replies.

I think I'll try Vandalize's advice, so the list he suggested but -1 Breakthrough +1 Griselbrand.

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In my experience, you can differentiate the good Dredge players and the bad Dredge players by their affinity for Dread Return and Dread Return targets as opposed to the cards that improve mulligans and win games over the long run. The problem with Dread Return and Griselbrand is that there's this certain sense of self justification after exploding all over an opponent's face that makes you think what you're doing is "good," but you probably could have won the game anyway with Ichorids, Zombies and Cabal Therapies and you'll start to realize the difference between the cards that win games and the cards that end games.

You're going to win more by playing City of Brass, Tireless Tribe go. Dredge, Cephalid Coliseum and go off on the 2nd turn more than you're going to win with Dread Return into Griselbrand on X turn. I believe the stuff like Dread Return and Griselbrand belong in the SB to fight against Surgical Extraction more than anything else.

Just made top8 in a 66 man tournament.

The list I played was this;

4Lion's Eye Diamond
4Golgari Thug
4Stinkweed Imp
4Golgari Grave-Troll
4Putrid Imp
4Narcomoeba
3Ichorid
4Bridge from Below
1Darkblast
4Breakthrough
4Careful Study
4Faithless Looting
4Cabal Therapy
4Cephalid Coliseum
4Gemstone Mine
4City of Brass
//sideboard
4Leyline of the Void
4Nature's Claim
3Nether Shadow
2Ancient Grudge
1Ichorid
1Tarnished Citadel

My matchups were;
2-0 Mono Black Infect
1-2 Death 'n Taxes (kept scatchy hands, stupid)
2-0 Punishing Jund
1-1 Shardless Bug (didn't scoop game 2 fast enough, so was one turn short for the win)
2-0 Death 'n Taxes
2-0 UW Blade Control
2-0 Deathblade Control

For a 5-1-1 record, going into the top 8 as 8th player. Didn't need breakers luckily, as I was downpaired twice.

First round in the top 8 was Elves, and the little buggers were just a tad too fast.

All in all the quadlazer list plays very smooth. The 4th Ichorid isn't really necessary imo, this might just as well be a 13th dredger (like I played it), a 13th land or a Dread Return if you really want it. But as the poster above me said, Dread Return isn't needed in the main at all. I wish I played it in the side though, as I never boarded the Leylines, but that's a metacall after all.

Good job, nice list. Do you feel the Leylines are the optimal choice? I prefer Surgicals since this deck is pretty likely to be casting one or two Study effects per game which makes drawing into them a good possibility. I also prefer the 13th land over the 13th dredger because it makes cephalid coliseum much more reliable when you mulligan. If Coliseum is your only land, you're forced to mull most of the time whereas hands with one dredger are perfectly fine, especially preboard. I run the same maindeck -1 DBlast, -2 Imps, +2 Citadel, +1. Ichorid.

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

Good job, nice list. Do you feel the Leylines are the optimal choice? I prefer Surgicals since this deck is pretty likely to be casting one or two Study effects per game which makes drawing into them a good possibility. I also prefer the 13th land over the 13th dredger because it makes cephalid coliseum much more reliable when you mulligan. If Coliseum is your only land, you're forced to mull most of the time whereas hands with one dredger are perfectly fine, especially preboard. I run the same maindeck -1 DBlast, -2 Imps, +2 Citadel, +1. Ichorid.

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I don't know about Surgical Extraction, only played against the card, never with it. I think the difference is between absolute protection (leyline) and surprise effect (extraction). Most of the decks that are vulnerable to leyline will have a way to deal with it, but it will strain their resources. Extraction is much harder to combat, especially unexpected (got hit by a T1 Rit -> Hymn, hitting Bridge -> Extirpate in round 1 game 1. Still won it thanks to Darkblast killing his critters and Ichorid beatdown+hardcasting Thugs and even a Stinkweed Imp). So I would say it's about personal choice as well. But in my meta GY hate isn't that needed at the moment, so i will probably cut it to get DR and Elesh Norn+Iona to combat those elves players that appear everywhere all of a sudden.

How do you like the 4th Ichorid main? I always felt it was unneeded. Also I would hesitate to cut so many Putrids as they're quite handy to dump your hand. Makes hands with Bridges a lot better.

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Originally Posted by tyriion

I don't know about Surgical Extraction, only played against the card, never with it. I think the difference is between absolute protection (leyline) and surprise effect (extraction). Most of the decks that are vulnerable to leyline will have a way to deal with it, but it will strain their resources. Extraction is much harder to combat, especially unexpected (got hit by a T1 Rit -> Hymn, hitting Bridge -> Extirpate in round 1 game 1. Still won it thanks to Darkblast killing his critters and Ichorid beatdown+hardcasting Thugs and even a Stinkweed Imp). So I would say it's about personal choice as well. But in my meta GY hate isn't that needed at the moment, so i will probably cut it to get DR and Elesh Norn+Iona to combat those elves players that appear everywhere all of a sudden.

How do you like the 4th Ichorid main? I always felt it was unneeded. Also I would hesitate to cut so many Putrids as they're quite handy to dump your hand. Makes hands with Bridges a lot better.

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I agree with your assessment of the gy hate. Worth noting though is you can use Surgical as an anti hate card as well as a hate card. You can respond to their Surgical with your own targeting the same card they did, removing it from your grave so theirs fizzles. It's a decent way to keep Narcomoebas and Bridges in your library for later.

I always run 4 Ichorids, but it's just my personal preference since I hate dredging 24 cards and not hitting a creature.

About PImps, yeah I love them too. When Faithless Looting came out I removed all the Imps for them since that was the most obvious swap. I have since been trimming corners to squeeze them back in, but I don't think I have any room left for more so 2 it is for now.

Does anyone here have any recommendations on some budget Dredge lists? Not really looking to pick up 4 LEDs at their current price if you know what I mean.

Replace them with Tireless Tribe. You probably could have searched this thread for the exact same answer though.

I was playing with 1 DR main, and then a board with 1 DR, 1 FKZ, 1 Sun Titan (in a Bloodghast build). I found in a lot of matchups I would just bring in the pure speed/combo Dread Return package with a mentality of "prove your GY hate is good enough to beat me." Depending on what I saw, I could then opt for a fast Dread Return combo win on the play in game 3, or board in my other 12 cards (4 Painter/4 Grindstone/3 Enlightened Tutor) to play around their GY hate. I'm moving away from a transformational board for right now just because I like Ashen Ghoul so much, but I still have the same mentality about "prove your GY hate is good enough" with a Dread Return package in the board. Rather than use 2 slots on FKZ/Sun Titan, and since DR often comes in against combo decks, I went with 2 DR/1 Iona. Here is my current list, which I won a 12 man tournament with (despite playing vs. maindeck RIP in top 4)

//Dredgers (11)
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast

//Beaters (12)
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
3 Bloodghast
1 Ichorid

//Discard (8)
4 Unmask
4 Cabal Therapy

//Draw (11)
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough

//Mana (18)
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 City of Brass
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Cephalid Colisseum
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Dakmor Salvage

//Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Nature's Claim
3 Ashen Ghoul
2 Dread Return
1 Iona
1 Ancient Grudge

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Originally Posted by ZimAshe

Does anyone here have any recommendations on some budget Dredge lists? Not really looking to pick up 4 LEDs at their current price if you know what I mean.

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Just look into the previous thread page. There is a pretty good non-LED list IMO (Vandalize's one)

Removing a Cabal Therapy for a Tireless Tribe is basically a wash in terms of activating Coliseum or casting Breakthrough on turn 2. If you're comfortable with it, removing a Dread Return for a Tireless Tribe is free consistency.

Removing a land, Dredger or Breakthrough for Tireless Tribe actually makes you LESS likely to have a hand that can go turn 2 Coliseum (or Breakthrough, or Faithless Looting, or Careful Study) after discarding a dredger with a spell (Therapy, Imp, Tribe, Looting, Study) on turn 1. I am not conjecturing, I have run the simulations.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I don't think Tireless Tribe has been "removed" from the deck at all, the 16th Land, the 12th Dredger, the 4th Breakthrough, the 4th Cabal Therapy, the Dread Return etc. can all be "trimmed" to include 1-3 Tireless Tribe

Personally, I think

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Coliseum

is going to be more consistent just because you have more T2 Coliseum activations

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As I posted on the page before, the list that can do that (turn 1 discard a Dredger, turn 2 cast a draw spell) most often without Lion's Eye Diamond is this list:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Putrid Imp
4 Breakthrough
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Tarnished Citadel
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return

Interestingly, it is more consistent at doing this than Quadlazer by almost a full percentage point.

I dusted off my old Quadlazer list recently (exactly as the list in the primer) after same time playing storm and was pleasantly surprised. The deck play very nice and I had some pretty good results on small local tournaments with it. Rest in Peace is still a bitch but it is much rarer now, so I don't auto-lose so often (if anyone here knows how to play around RiP please let me know, the card does way too much damage to my game plan at the moment).

However, there are two decks in my meta that are really annoying to play against and I wanted to ask if anyone here has any advice for me. One is Enchantress. It has many really annoying enchantments (Elephant Grass, Confinement, Rest in Peace) and can be surprisingly fast. It might not have a fast clock but it often locks me out of the game and kills me painfully slow. I run four Nature's Claim in the SB but once they hit their stride they can replace anything easily.

The second (and much better) deck I am struggeling against is OmniTell. Show and Tell into Omniscience into Enter the Infinite -> GG. Fun for the whole family. They are blazing fast, kill immediately and I have almost no way of stopping them. Therapies help but they often sideboard Leyline of Sanctity and take away this last option. I could board Nature's Claim to counteract this but that would slow me down, giving them more time to combo out. Is this just a bad matchup or is there a way to beat them I am missing?

For me it's classic quad list with SB
3 firestorm
3 Wispmare
3 Ashen Ghoul
2 Tarnished citadel
4 Nature's Claim

wispmare dodges fluster/pierce against miracle and it's good to put on show and tell against mono u omni.

I do not play Dredge much, but I am looking into a Legacy deck with this being one of the forerunners in my mind. I was curious to the idea of Street Wraith in either the maindeck or sideboard as an answer to Deathrite Shaman, Surgical Extraction, Scavenging Ooze and other targeted Graveyard hate?

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

In my experience, you can differentiate the good Dredge players and the bad Dredge players by their affinity for Dread Return and Dread Return targets as opposed to the cards that improve mulligans and win games over the long run. The problem with Dread Return and Griselbrand is that there's this certain sense of self justification after exploding all over an opponent's face that makes you think what you're doing is "good," but you probably could have won the game anyway with Ichorids, Zombies and Cabal Therapies and you'll start to realize the difference between the cards that win games and the cards that end games.

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While I understand your sentiment for being anti-Dread Return except for as a sideboard option to combat cards like Surgical Extraction, the affinity and desire to play the card has absolutely nothing to do with the caliber of player opting to run the card to maximize its potential to full use. Some players prefer to run it - that doesn't make it wrong at all.

I ran it when I was running hard with LED Dredge - and I'd do it again if given the opportunity.