Technically, it's 1 mana cheaper than GSZ if you're going to win this turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by danyul
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Technically, it's 1 mana cheaper than GSZ if you're going to win this turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by danyul
It's faster but also less flexible. GSZ grabs us Arbors on the first turn or particular combo pieces if we are setting up to go off on the next turn. It gives us tutoring power without the pressure of that 4 mana looming over our heads, so we can play a longer, slower game if we have to. I think you know this though. Your love of Summoner's Pact has not been forgotten, oh Kobacious one.
I do concede that GSZ->Arbor is something that cannot be matched by Summoner's Pact. I think that getting twice the Nettle Sentinel triggers for Heritage Druid is something GSZ cannot match either.
Just some Lembas for thought.
First question: Why run solutions to SB card Maindeck? (shaman MB makes only sense if lots of SFM run wild, so atm doing this is ok, but Cage ain't a reason)Quote:
Originally Posted by danyul
Second question: How do you plan to get hands on your lone V.Shaman with Cage out?
Third question: isn't that shit the reason we used to have 3+ Decays?
1. You have a good point there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
2. It's more of a supplemental answer to the Decays I assume you would already board in. And it gives you another card to topdeck/Glimpse into. You have another good point there.
3. I have found that the Decays always have plenty of targets, and sometimes I use one on a Delver or Lavamancer or Jitte only to find myself shut out by a Cage later. In this case, the V.Shaman is just another answer.
You make solid points. I didn't really think of those. I have always run the V.Shaman so I guess I was mostly using the threat of Cage to make me feel even smarter for having V.Shaman in the 75.
neverQuote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Gdigger Cage is actually the first hate I encountered on a regular basis. In addition to Viridan Shaman, the Abrupt Decays helped with this, although Gdigger Cage is one hell of a pain. Obviously if you don't find the VShaman early enough the cage will stop the GSZ - Vshaman plan. I hate having to use Abrupt Decay on a 1cc card that isn't killing my Elves or preventing me from playing my Elves.Quote:
Originally Posted by danyul
Well, I'll be the first to sleeve up Pact if it becomes a thing again in Elves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
I have main deck shaman for main deck issues; to include but not limited too Jitte, Aether Vial, Chalice, Painter/Grindstone...anyone could throw out more but the first 3 are truly relevant. I can't tell you how many games main deck Vshaman has probably won me based on hitting Jitte. Even against Vial it helps if you keep a slower hand (I know many decks that run Vial we are favored, but the point is there). White Tempo and Blade control decks are a thing in my meta so this card isn't leaving my main deck. If your expecting heavy combo in your meta, as long as there isn't a ton of Painter you could probably pass up the Shaman, but blind meta or large meta for that matter I see no issue in running it main.Quote:
Originally Posted by danyul
Well, maindeck viridian shaman does little against Grafdigger's Cage, unless we hope to consistently draw it naturally.
In fact, when Cage is on the battlefield, our only hopes are glimpse of nature and Symbiote/visionary, because our tutors are not effective anymore.
That said, it is not impossible to beat, because considering the fantastic draw engines of elves, the possibility of naturally drawing a behemoth, viridian shaman or decay is quite high.
If Cage is revealed, whether its the current game or the game after if it contributed to the lose, a good plan is to establish the wirewood visionary chain asap to help find the answer (pending the deck of course), for all the reasons you stated above. Main deck Viridan Shaman and Grafdiggers cage should not be a discussion as Grafdiggers isn't (normally) going to be a main deck thing. Post board, its only another card you can draw, but it should never be thought as a 1 of. If Decaying the Cage becomes the plan then consider your deck to have 4 decays not 3. Sure the Vshaman can be FoW'd (mine have in the past), I just smile and begin a Glimpse chain shortly after.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoCop 90
Steel sabotage is pretty cool if we're going to run blue for swan song lol
How often do you guys gsz for dryad arbor on turn 1? I pretty much always do that if I don't have any mana producing elves turn 1. I feel that first turn acceleration is always our best opening game 1, so I don't mind "wasting" a gsz to accomplish that. Is that the consensus around here or am I incorrect at doing this?
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I quite like having the maindeck Shaman in my current meta. The last event I played in, 3 out of the 5 decks I faced played Jitte/Batterskull and the other 2 ran Aether Vials.
Sure, you can't GSZ for it against the Cage, but I don't see that many people running them (at least in my own meta). Also, while Cage can be extremely annoying at times, it isn't an end-all. It is a reason though why I run a Fierce Empath over the fourth Elvish Visionary - the Empath still lets you fetch your Craterhoof when there's a Cage on the battlefield, effectively increasing the chance of "drawing" your win condition. For those fearing it'll mess up your odds of assembling your Best Friends Team, I must say from experience that running the Empath over the Visionary rarely interferes with assembling it. You'll often GSZ for one of the pieces anyway. So what this does is keep your BFF-team intact whilst providing a little more utility for your deck. Ofcourse, you'll prefer to NO for your Hoof 9 out of 10 times, but every now and again you'll be fine with just hardcasting it.
Might be worth it for some people to run one over their fourth Visionary, if they face enough Grafdigger's Cages. Thoughts, anyone?
Personally, I'm pretty liberal with using gsz as my turn 1 dork as well if I don't have llanowar/DRS. Having that extra mana makes top-decked glimpses/visionaries/quirion rangers so much better. In addition to the aforementioned cage, this play hedges against teeg, mindcensor, leonin arbiter and their respective decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by matty
I would never cut the 4th visionary...Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
A Fierce Empath is a slightly more expensive Elvish Visionary that will draw your kill card every single time and can instantly fetch your second in conjunction with Wirewood Symbiote when the first gets countered/Stiffled :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by nudon
If you want another kill card, why not play the 4th NO in your main deck? It doesn't require 11 (3+8) mana and will generally win you the game on the spot instead of having to wait a turn. If your opponent is holding a counter, they can still counter the empath or stifle the trigger. Additionally, you're now more susceptible to arbiter and mindcensor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Edit: meant arbiter instead of cage.
You should read what the Cage does again. It only prevents creatures entering the battlefield from your library. Fierce Empath places it in your hand, not on the battlefield - that would be insane. Also, I'd rather have my opponent counter/Stifle the Empath then the Hoof.Quote:
Originally Posted by nudon
You are right about the Arbiter/Mindcensor though :smile:
I know what cage does. I mistyped since I had it in my mind from the earlier post. You can play empath if you like but I don't see any reason to go below 4 visionaries. Even if I were to try empath or any other random card, I'd cut other things before cutting any visionaries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I've been running MD Shaman for months now.
I consider it like condoms in the car, never leave home without them.
Same here, and I will not even think off cutting it! In every single tournament it will be of some use preboard. And since for example Deathblade's TNN can rape you pretty fast game 1 with a Jitte, where ranger and symbiote are of no use anymore, why would you take the risk not to play such a good 1-off main? Besides that, there is always some dude playing Chalice -_-!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayradis
I've done so many shenanigans with Shaman.
Once, an opponent fizzle'd with Belcher, leaving his belcher unactivated.
Shaman'd it!!!
Played another one?
Symbiote, bounced Shaman then Shaman'd the second one.
Haha, yeah I did that too @BoM Paris! Somehow I was able to win from Belcher, TinFins and Zombardement (also partly thanks to Shaman) in a row :P!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayradis