I've been thinking of going down to 3 Enlightened Tutors in the SB, and adding 2 PtE and some number of Judge's Familiar. Haven't had a chance to think much about it over the past few weeks, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguinizer
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I've been thinking of going down to 3 Enlightened Tutors in the SB, and adding 2 PtE and some number of Judge's Familiar. Haven't had a chance to think much about it over the past few weeks, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguinizer
I've been thinking about it recently, and I'm starting to suspect that judge's familiar isn't all that good. The more I look at him, the more I think that RIP, Oblivion Ring, or equipment might be better suited in the sideboard for the current meta. Sure, we can make Show & Tell cost :5: .... or, we just S&T an Oblivion Ring. Sure, we can counter a Daze... or we can just play around it, and keep our sideboard strong with solid hate.
Idk. Just my two cents.
I am finding that sideboarding is the hardest part for me with this deck, mainly because I just have no clue how to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
Presently have a dedicated E-Tutor sideboard, but the problem with it is that against decks where staying as close as possible on card parity (ie blue decks) is important, E-Tutor just blows, and you have dead cards in your MD (ie Swords against Miracles).
How do people think about this sideboard:
3x Enlightened Tutor
1x Rest in Peace
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x COP Red
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Oblivion Ring
2x Pithing Needle
1x Revoker (I have 3 main)
2x Path to Exile (think RUG/Zoo/Affinity)
@BB, I've been talking to a guy (I'm sure he'll ID himself here if he wants to) who also doesn't like Judge's Familiar in the deck, but he's coming at it from a card advantage perspective. The thinking is that either static pressure or 2-for-1 and 1-for-0 card trades help us pull ahead in the long game, but Familiar just sits around (in hand stunting our Vial growth or on board telegraphing our capability) hoping for a 1-for-1 trade. I still think it could use some testing, but the counterargument is compelling.
@Quantum, Gut Shot or Oust depending on what you're trying to kill seems better. PtE will likely give them land, which is precisely what we don't want when trying to tax them.
Revokers do most of what Needle would do. Needle can hit the non-mana abilities of lands, but so can Mangara and Wasteland. On the other hand, Needle can't hit things like Priest of Titania or LED. Having 4 Revokers + x Tutors is probably enough, unless you're doing this intentionally for wacky meta reasons.
4 gravehate tutor targets seems excessive. I'd change at least one into a fourth Tutor or another Silver bullet. I'd go with a Crypt and a Rest in Peace, but I know others prefer Relic. Wheel has its uses but those corner cases are overshadowed by the 2 colored-mana requirement, which RiP solves. (Again, I get that these choices could be meta-driven, but that wasn't stated so I'm going with my gut.)
What would be a non-E Tutor SB, look like? Trying to get my SB in order for a few upcoming tournaments.
A very basic non-E tutor board would look somewhat like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Anarky87
4 Ethersworn Canonists
4 Judge's familiar
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Dryad Militant
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
By no means am I saying this is optimized, but it replaces the E-tutors with hate bears/creatures. Perhaps a few Oblivion Rings instead of the hate bear of your choice for the Show and Tell matchups?
I haven't tested it but I'm hoping the mana denial of the Familiars combined with Canonists/Thalia/Revokers, etc. will slow S and T down a bit.
I think Judge's Familiar is not a sideboard card... It's only -main 4x or not main 4x- , cause it's a card you do want to see in multiples in main and there are much better choices for the sb. there is canonist(you don't really need 8 must side-in vs storm if you're not in a storm-heavy meta) and vs miracle it's not that good. The other match you could side it in for is canadian, but it's a much better choice for the main, cause of sulfur elemental and the hate he is bringing in.
By the way... Show and tell/Sneak is a good matchup... I really can't see how you can lose(once I lost to a 2-force of will show and tell sneakattack/emrakul hand, but that's it)
Vs Omniscience there are better choices, again... We should just go for the canonists or a way to interrupt the cycle of petal of insights. We r not that fast to make judge's worth, here, and 3/4 karakas/mangara are enough for the emrakul plan. You could stick a pair of oblivion rings and it's great postboard(just care bout through the breach).
Have you guys thought of adding Faith's Fetters as answer for Show and Tell Decks?
There was one time where I was able to shut down an SnT deck when i put it into play via their own Show and Tell..
If Faith's Fetters enters play, it automatically enchants itself to a permanent (Emrakul, Griselbrand, and Sneak Attack). In this way, they can't use the abilities anymore since the ability of Faith's Fetters does not go into the stack. No chance for them to respond.
The definite downside is its casting cost. A 4cc is such a problem for DnT. Am i right? But if facing SNT, you don't need to cast it..
P.S. Im not sure if Faith's Fetters will be anything helpful to that Omnisicence card.. But at least you can solve 3 of their threats...
Just my 2 cents.. I'm giving it a try again.. :P
I'm not certain this is correct. I believe putting in an aura into play via Show & Tell may be like the Clone situation - you can't attach it to what your opponent is bringing in off of Show & Tell because it's not on the battlefield before your aura comes into play.Quote:
Originally Posted by xifre
I could be wrong, so can one of the judges confirm/deny this?
ok.. i guess we really need an intervenor on this.. that's what happened in one of my plays..Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
Regardless, I'd say that oblivion ring solves the problem of whatever permanent they show in.
I'm with Esper and BB. I don't think it works, and even if it did O-Ring would be better. Better against continuous effects (does anyone still play Iona?), better against Omniscience, etc. The only problem with O-Ring is it doesn't help against Hive Mind, as they can cast Pacts with O-Ring on the stack. Of course, Fetters doesn't help in that case either.
Re: rules http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showt...38#post9095438
You can't attach an aura you show and telled in to a permanent that was put into play with the same show and tell.
Oblivion Ring is different as the trigger removes the permanent and Oblivion Ring doesn't target itself.
thanks kirby! At least i know the restriction of those cards.. They misinterpreted the play i guess..Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
Now I'm back to O-ring!
I'd say the difference is that Oblivion Ring doesn't target anything as it comes into play; instead it targets things when it comes into play. That tiny but critical difference means O-Ring's ability goes on the stack, and by the time it resolves any other SnT permanent will also be fair game (barring protection or other restrictions).Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempus
I am unwilling to part with my tutor board for now. I tried it without for a bit, but I was not especially pleased. If Elves gets really big and Omniscience dies for some reason, I will probably switch. But not yet.
Also, thumbs up for Judge's Familiar so far. I only have two in the main, but I am happy with them. Flying makes all the difference.
I'm curious, what did you cut out of the deck to make room? I've been thinking about playing them but I simply don't have the slots.
I moved Jotun Grunts to the sideboard, as did a few other players. They really only shine against RUG and are kinda bad against Miracles.
for what it's worth, here are the two major reasons why I'm keeping 2 Jotun Grunts, and 0 Judge's Familiars, in the maindeck. (still undecided on the sideboard configuration)
1. Familiar is more of an early-game play, whereas Grunt is generally more late-game, but the deck is a lot more late-game oriented. Unless we've got some serious mana-denial going on, the Cursecatcher ability seems like it falls off the radar pretty quickly, and the 1/1 body is quite marginal. Grunt only gets better as the game goes on, on the other hand, and the 4/4 body is extremely powerful even if we aren't getting value out of recycling the opponent's graveyard. There's an argument that a lot of Familiar's staying power comes from being a good sword-holder in the late-game, but I'd argue that if we've managed to start attacking with an equipped creature in the late-game we're doing well no matter what creature it is. (This argument is also less relevant for my build, since I only play Batterskull and Jitte in the main, but let's deal with this can of worms first :smile:)
2. In my opinion the more significant issue with Familiar is that he further complicates the mana curve of our creatures. There's no doubt that AEther Vial is one of the key cards in the deck, and most people would say that it's the most important. To make this point clearer, I'll first go through the three settings for Vial (1, 2 or 3 counters) in a pre-RTR build.
1 counter.
Mother of Runes: gains very little from being Vialed in, and is the only CMC-1 creature in the deck. in general, unless we get Vial-flooded, the only reason to use this slot is to tick up to 2 the next turn.
2 counters.
Stoneforge Mystic: a card that we really want to resolve, and so is generally a lot better off a Vial than hardcast.
Serra Avenger: good blocker, and Vial gives us a way to get around the casting restriction.
Thalia: nice to vial in on the opponent's upkeep, and also makes a good blocker. Vial is also very useful if we want to use Karakas to keep an opponent's Jitte/Batterskull/whatever out of combat.
Phyrexian Revoker: excellent way to disrupt the opponent's cards, and also gains a lot of value from being Vialed in (i.e. we can respond to them casting a Pernicious Deed, instead of having to cast it and guessing what they have)
Jotun Grunt: another great blocker, and also good off a Vial, since casting it normally is much less effective at battling something like Loam or Lingering Souls
3 counters.
Flickerwisp: the most versatile Vial trick in the deck by a long shot
Mangara of Corondor: Vial on three is very important for establishing a Mangara lock
This quick analysis hopefully reveals what I find to be the biggest issue with the deck, which is the competition between Vial at 2 and Vial at 3. 3 gives us access to some really good tricks, but has far fewer creatures to support it, so I always feel uncomfortable ticking my vial up to 3 unless I have a hand overflowing with flickers and mangoes. I think a vial at 2 generally wins, just because we run many more creatures at that CMC, but it's very much a quality vs quantity issue and it's generally best to just have two vials.
Cutting Jotun Grunt for Judge's Familiar muddies the waters here even further. Familiar gets pretty substantial value from being Vialed in, but giving value to a Vial at 1 complicates the issue, since we now have three competing slots rather than two. Simultaneously, getting rid of Grunt makes a Vial at 2 less good, to the extent that it's on a pretty even footing with Vial at 3.
this argument went on a lot longer than I was anticipating, but just to conclude this second point: including Judge's Familiar (especially at the cost of Jotun Grunt) in the main spreads our creatures more thinly around different CMCs, which I think should be avoided in a deck that uses Vial so heavily.
I went to a 15-man Legacy event today. I decided to try out 3x Judge's Familiar main with the Jötun Grunts in the SB.
I had the following decklist:
Lands: 22
8x Plains
4x Karakas
4x Wasteland
3x Rishadan Port
3x Flagstones of Trokair
Creatures:
4x Mother of Runes
3x Judge's Familiar
4x Serra Avenger
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara of Corondor
Spells:11
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Aether Vial
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
SB:
3x Jötun Grunt
1x Judge's Familiar (didn't have anything better)
3x Enlightened Tutor
1x Rest in Peace
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Stony Silence
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
Since I'm bad at remembering the specific way things went, I'll just give a quick rundown of how it went.
Round 1, 2-0 vs. Monogreen stompy:
In both games, he goes for early game beats however I hold back with Mother of Runes and some other creatures and pull out ahead with a Jitte or Sword of Fire and Ice.
Round 2, 2-1 vs. High Tide:
Game 1, I land a quick Thalia with the aid of a Judge's Familiar (countering Remand). I land a Mother of Runes and then SFM for a sword and grind him down to 0. He doesn't draw well enough to combo off.
Game 2, I mulligan badly and lose.
Game 3, Much like the first, I land a quick Thalia, search up a sword and go for beats. However, this game I win because he goes to combo off of 4 lands, however I sac Familiar on his first (and only) high tide, causing him to fizzle as he doesn't have enough lands available to combo off of.
Round 3, Jund thing (Lothleth Troll, Gravecrawler, Vengevine, Goblin Bombardment and others). 0-2.
I play horrifically both games and lose as a result. Largely caused by my own ineptitude
Round 4, 2-0 vs. Helm of Obedience combo:
Game 1, he has to mulligan several times. He starts off with a quick leyline but revoker and fast beats means I win before he can do much.
Game 2 he switches to a storm plan off of the SB however Revoker on LED (I knew he'd do this since he's friend of mine and I watched him playtest the deck earlier during the week.) followed by a bad Ad Nauseam (no significant manasources and a lot of high mana spells leads to an easy win.
Top 4 round 1: Vs. Sneak and Show.
Once again, I more or less know what he's playing since I sat next to him in an earlier round. Karakas into vial followed by a Revoker on Sneak Attack stops him from doing much. Same happens in game 2.
Top 4 round 2 (finals): Vs. MUD thing.
Game 1, I mulligan badly and go with a risky hand that doesn't pay off.
Game 2, I land a vial followed by a turn 3 Serra Avenger+Stony Silence in an attempt to shut him down. He draws Ancestral Tomb+City of Traitors and races me with Lodestone Golem. I don't draw enough lands to play a Flickerwisp on my Stony Silence to vial in anything so I lose. In short, I kept hands that were way too risky.
EDIT: Also, rather unrelated, but does anyone know a good way to get air out of double sleeved cards? My sideboard has about tripled in size.