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Thank you Klaus :)
I like solid Miracle lists very much. But if we want to win agaist Death & Taxes, which will rise in popularity imo, we might want to consider some narrower choices, e.g.: Sulfur Elemental, Pithing Needle, Tsabo's Web, more Explosives...
I have tried Punishing Fires in miracles, and I've even tried it in CounterTop (with STP, no miracles), and while when it worked out it was great, the mana was just too bad. Taiga sucks :(.
? What are you talking about? Doesn't Lossett MD a Mountain and have a Sulfur Elemental in the SB already?Quote:
Originally Posted by zerzab11
I don't see what's Tasbo's Web for apart from Rishadan Port...Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Also Wasteland, Karakas, Castle, Ghostquarter and whatever land they play but Plains.
@twndomn: I was talking about solid lists. Although Lossetts list surely is good, it is not as solid as mine or Einherjers. In these solid lists (that don't play fancy stuff), it might be needed to play some narrower cards (Sulfur) to break the MU apart. :)
@Poron: It's mainly for Port, but it also shuts down Karakas, Wasteland, Ghost Quarter, Eiganjo Castle to one time use. Against D&T this card is huge...:cool:
That's the stupidest thing I've ever read recently. Your opinion of solidity is as subjective as the concept of beauty. Just replace "solid" in your sentence to "beautiful," you can see how subjective you are. There's no such thing as one's more solid than the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by zerzab11
Ein is attacking the meta-game and he has his play-style from one angle, Lossett's attacking the meta-game and has his own play-style from the other angle. No such thing as one's better or more solid than the other. It's up to you to decide which play-style would enable you to win more, and how would you like to attack the meta.
No such thing as one being better than the other? Why don't we just close up the forum then and go home?
At this point you pretty much need to justify any deviation from Losset's list.
Your first statement makes sense; however your second is saying Losset's is better without any justification. You seem to be missing the point that Losset is playing in an American Meta (Stoneblade/Delver heavy) where as zerzab11 and Einherjer are playing in a European meta (traditionally combo heavy). Which seems a good reason as any to take different approaches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
There's this term called slippery slope, have you ever heard of it? Your posts remind me of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
Back to the original topic, If I write a series of equations to solve a problem, and my mathematical approach is called A. You write a separate series of equations to solve the same problem, called B. Since we both solve the problem correctly, is your B strictly better than my A? Your B might look more elegant than mine, but in terms of correctness, they are both the same.
Therefore, the strictly better deck list is the one you can Top 8 with. Doesn't matter if you can do it using Lossett's or Ein's. They are different approaches, achieving the same goal.
I don't know why you're so butthurt . He's just stating does he took a broader approach, trying not to play narrow card such as Blood Moon, Sulfur Elemental or Tzabo's Web.. Thus making the list more "solid" because he doesn't use those cards tu up the percentage in certain matchups (while beeing useless in other matchups).Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
I don't see the problem here. No one is saying his list is better, in fact zerzzab11 statet the opposite, just more solid.
He knows English, he can type. Why are you re-interpreting what he wrote? He can clarify what he means by himself, are you his spokesperson or something?Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel
I don't know why you're asking me about butthurt, maybe my sphincters can't handle the size of you, you tell me?
Sorry, you must be new here. Twndomn is a troll who rarely adds anything productive to the thread. If you need any proof of this, just read his signature. Your best off just ignoring him like the rest of us do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel
As far as beating death and taxes goes, you don't need narrow cards like web or sulfer elemental. To beat them you need to deal with vial. This can be done with cards that great in MANY different matchups. If you can deal with vial you can win. They have so use their lands to cast their dudes so your mana gets taxed less, they can only come in at sorcery speed, and they can get hit with CB.
Against D&T I do this:
+2 EE
+1 Needle
+1 disenchant
+1 Verdict (although its usually pretty bad)
+1 Entreat (up to 3)
-1 CB (it is only good after vial is dealt with, you rarely want to be slamming it turn 2-3)
-4 or 2/2 FoW/pierce (draw/play)
-1 Counterpsell
My plan is kill to vial with EE, needle, disenchant or FoW/pierce. Also, all of those cards are not JUST for vial which is really nice so drawing redundant of those cards is not bad.
Once you kill vial, you still have to out trade them. They have a lot of threats and if they are smart they will never play more than 1 creature. Snapcaster+StpS and Jace are HUGE in the matchup, because casting one of those cards when their vial is turned off means they HAVE to overextend and then you can start getting 2-for-1s with terminus.
Clique and venser are nice for dealing with mystic and clique (or needle) can help break up the thalia/karakas "combo" which is the only other really scary thing we need to worry about.
If you get the point where you have 5+ lands and are not about lose to some ridiculous board position, finding an entreat almost always ends the game on the spot. They don't have countermagic, you can work around ports by tapping top on the upkeep, all you have to do is find the entreat and it will win the game for you.
Leaving Spell Pierce in against Death and Taxes on the draw is nothing but gambling. Very bad gambling. If you do the math, the chances are not very high that the Death and Taxes player has Vial in his oppening 7 AND you having Spell Pierce in your 7. I would always prefer something more flexible than Spell Pierce, f.ex another Counterspell.
Ignoring twndomn is a good tip, either he is a genius &trolling everybody or he's just inexperienced and stupid.
Edit: Entreat is only Game Over preboard, postboard they have Ratchet Bomb and Cataclysm. Something to keep in mind, before you go all in and create some Angels on your upkeep while shuffling your top away.
This is also why I like spell pierce. They usually are jamming those cards as soon as they can and not playing around pierce. Ratchet bomb especially, they usually try to get it out early to play around CB. Although, I do still agree that the 2 pierce are the worst 2 cards in the deck after that SB plan. Maybe FoW or CS is better, but its close, those are pretty bad too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adryan
Hello, I am a new member of the forums, but have been a lurker for some time. I have been playing Miracles for a little over a year. From talking and watching other players at SCG Cincinnati I saw that many people board out Force of Will for sideboarded games, I do this myself as well. Has anyone tested not playing Force of Wills in their 75 or reducing their number to 2? This is something that I am preparing to test, but was wondering if this has already been discussed or tested before going further.
I have also been testing Keranos as a one of. He has been surprisingly good in various match-ups and has provided an alternate avenue to pressure planeswalkers and players life totals in a way that is difficult to deal with in the current legacy metagame. He still pitches to Force of Will and between Jace, SDT, and Brainstorm it is fairly easy to manipulate his triggers.
I was just wanting to get some other peoples thoughts. Thank you.
What does anyone think about Grafdigger's Cage replacing a Rest In Peace in the board? I haven't tried it yet, but I would expect the primary trade-off is a better matchup against Elves and a worse time against anything with Life From The Loam. This probably wouldn't be a worthwhile change for anyone running a full set of Swords, or for those who are choosing to overload Abrupt Decays instead of dodging them.
In my build of the deck it seems like a reasonable option. Many people seem to think Elves is a bye, but I disagree. I would say that Miracles is favored, but not by any absurd margin. It is also a matchup where there is room to board in additional cards. Even if it made the match a little better, it might still not be worth it. Loam is something where you can't realistically dodge Abrupt Decay, so having extra copies of effective cards is desirable.
Anyway, I probably won't make the change for tomorrow. It's just something I've been thinking about.
I could see it as a meta call. It also makes you slightly worse against decks like Team America, Canadian, and German tempo, where you'd want Rest in Peace.
I have been really liking 2 RIP, 1 Relic. I don't bring in RIP against BUG, and take out CB also, so the only targets for their 4 decays and 2 charms are my creatures and top (sort of). Relic is great against BUG, they can't decay it profitably, it slows them down and its a free card. Also, the synergy with miracles is nice if you need to draw but don't want to risk losing top to a decay, or just a needed shuffle.Quote:
Originally Posted by oarsman
Against GY combo, dredge/reanimator, on paper, cage looks better than RIP since its shuts them down for 1 less mana, but the fact that RIP exiles all their GY even if they manage to answer your hate card is huge. Cage, they just kind durdle around till they find an answer and then you are right back were you started. With RIP you they lose any GY progress they had made previously and have to start over. Cage is probably better than relic here, but I relic can slow them down for quiet some time, and again, its a free card.
Also, the loam matchup. This matchup is not too bad, but I think RIP is the card that really pushes the matchup in our favor. With the recent BoM win, we might see more loam style decks pop up (there has already been a decent amount locally). Relic isn't great here, but better than cage obviously.
That said, cage is awesome against elves, which for a long time I thought was a bye. But I've been proven wrong. I think I was playing against bad elves players or something. Against a good player, the matchup is not a bye. Were favored, but we have to fight for it. Cage is also randomly good against other GSZ decks like Maverick or Nic fit.
I personally am going to stick with 1 relic, 2 rip until I see a change in the meta, but if you think you need more outs to elves, than Loam, and are not on the nullify decay plan against BUG, then cage does seem like a good choice.
Another card, I had a lot of success with a while ago, but have not played lately is Izzet Staticaster. Its a boss against elves, D&T, Mav, BWx blade, and young pyromancer (who has been showing up more and more). I also love the card against storm, it kills goblin tokens, xantid swarms and bobs, while pitching to FoW if needed. Its a bit narrow, don't overlook this card if the mentioned matchups need improving.
Hello,
in my opinion I think replacing one of the RIP is not the best Idea because it is just to good against a wide range of decks like RUG,BUG,Renanimator, Dregde and other gravyard dependent decks and therefore you donīt want to decrease the chance of drawing one by half by removing one of the two copies you play.
Some mentioned the plan to make decay useless but this is a plan doomed to fail in my opionion. The reason is if you try it and even remove Cb for this sake the 4 decays will left with the priority target only and this is top. The top is the key card of our deck because it the one who has a great part in making miracles happen at instant speed and also helps us at finding answers to threats while stacking our libary.
So in my opinion the smarter idea is to overload them with targets so that they canßīt simply kill top and win the game from there on.
For this reasons I would not cut the second Rip but since Cage is a very good card in some matchups play one cage in addtion to the Rip and if needed play another cage too.
Best regards Teveshszat
What do you all think of this type of build:
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13555&iddeck=99590
It plays maindeck engineered explosives and academy ruins, as well as wasteland and crucible of worlds. It's an interesting thought to be able to attack the opponents on those fronts, as well as potentially accruing a bit of card advantage, something the deck definitely lacks. That being said, it does look pretty clunky, and having the combination of that many colorless lands and that few fetches could hurt.
You said no list is more solid than another. But in this case, you're simply wrong. I only repeated what he said, because you didn't understand it, even if it was clear, but i thought you need another explanation.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Im asking you because you are offending and i just wanted to give you a reply on your level, but it seems i can't compete. He's definitely not the one needing a spokeperson.
I won't talk to you again, so let's stop blocking this thread.
Didn't read this until i had written the above post. I drew the same conclusion in the end, but i wondered why no one of the fans of solid lists did say anything. Now i know why.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
As far as what a "solid" list is, I think what you basically mean is consistent. A list packed full of 4-ofs is very consistent. What those lists might be missing, however, is flexibility. I think that as a Control deck in Legacy, we should try to be as flexible as possible in game one. The ability of Brainstorm and Top (and even Jace and Clique) to fix our draws is good enough where we can afford to run cards like Venser and REB that are amazing in some situations and mediocre or even bad in others. If you think about it, we've been doing this for a while now by main decking cards like Swords to Plowshares and particularly Force of Will. Since we are so reactive, there is just too much in Legacy that requires us to have an answer.
so you're now playing 4 Ponder, Philip? Can we have an updated list of yours?
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Swords toe Plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
SB:
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Humility
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Rest in Peace
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Entreat the Angels
This is what I have been running in the last month or two.
-Split top 16 prize with another gentleman in a 40 duals tournament (1st time playing this deck)
-10th place in next 40 duals tournament for a Badlands pity prize :frown: (both 40 duals tournaments were about 100 players)
- Win 40+ person side event at GP Philadelphia for foil sheet and a booster box
- 9th place at a local 40+ player monthly tournament for zero prize :frown:
- 3-1 last two Daily Events in MODO today. I lost to MUD in the first Daily Event and then lost to Bahra(very interesting Bant deck) in the last round after taking a very bad line of play on my part.
My maindeck has had 0 changes, but my sideboard has had the following flucuations:
-1 Humility for +1 Moat: Depends on how much Sneak and Show I expect on the day and whether or not someone can lend me a Moat for that day.
-1 Pithing Needle for +1 Flusterstorm: I rarely thought that 2 Flusterstorms would help a in given match. Maybe it is just my playstyle, but I think I might just cut the last Flusterstorm.
That being said, since my losses in the last month have been to combination of the following decks; Jund, 12 Post, MUD, Bant Fish, and EsperBlade; I might cut the Flusterstorm for a Blood Moon.
My results are not as impressive as top8ing a BoM, but I think I am doing OK. But it has been frustrating to almost always finish in 9th place or miss 4-0ing a Daily Event because I made one small mistake and it completely ruins my match. :frown:
I love the 2 Canonists in SB
You have no enchantment/artifact removal other than EE, do you miss Wear//Tear disenchant at all?Quote:
Originally Posted by mishima_kazuya
My bad, the Flusterstorm got listed twice. It should only be one Flusterstorm and a one of Wear//Tear in the sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Only starting playing Miracles somewhat recently, but have been loving the deck so far. I took a break from Brainstorm for a while, but now I'm getting to do it more than ever. Basically using a very slight moderation of Joe's list, with slight tweaks depending on the meta.
Maindeck
Creatures (5):
1x Venser, Shaper Savant / Snapcaster Mage
1x Snapcaster Mage
3x Vendilion Clique
Non-Creature Permanents (11):
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Counterbalance
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Instants/Sorceries (21):
4x Terminus
2x Entreat the Angels
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast / Swords to Plowshares / Ponder
2x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
1x Counterspell
Lands (23):
4x Flooded Strand
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Arid Mesa
2x Karakas
1x Mystic Gate
3x Tundra
1x Volcanic Island
4x Island
2x Plains
1x Mountain
Sideboard
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast
1x Spell Snare
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Pithing Needle
1x Sulfur Elemental
1x Swords to Plowshares / Venser, Shaper Savant / Blue Elemental Blast / Moat
2x Rest in Peace
2x Supreme Verdict
2x Flusterstorm
2x Wear // Tear
Top 8'd the Vancouver Spring Legacy Classic (68 person Win-a-Mox) with essentially Joe's list from SCG Detroit, but with -1 SB Venser +1 SB StP.
I would love to get some insight on a couple of things.
- vs. Xantid Swarm: Keep in STP? I wasn't, and if I had to fight the match-up at this moment in time, I would continue doing so.
- Blood Moon: Not sure it is entirely worth it, especially since it seems like you have to mess around with an already solid manabase.
- Counterbalance: I have a difficult time sideboarding with this card. Some general thoughts would be appreciated.
It depends how much room you have. I like leaving in 2-3 Plows with my current configuration. I think that things like Terminus and Entreat are generally bad and leave you with some room to work with; it looks like you have about 5-7 cards to bring in against ANT.Quote:
Originally Posted by SevenInTheQueue
I've ran it before and I'd run it again, although I'm not currently. Blood Moon and Ethersworn Canonist are the two biggest reasons to run Enlightened Tutor.Quote:
Originally Posted by SevenInTheQueue
It's bad against Dredge and decks playing multiple Cavern of Souls. It's mediocre against Abrupt Decay decks or Death and Taxes. It's great about everywhere else.Quote:
Originally Posted by SevenInTheQueue
Thanks for the quick response.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
I think I'll try the following vs Swarm decks (mostly ANT, and assuming I'm on 2x STP main)
- 4 Terminus
- 2 Entreat the Angels
+1 REB
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Relic of Progenitus
+1 Spell Snare
+2 Flusterstorm
I might poke around with Blood Moon, but having REB/Pyro main has helped greatly vs. various BUG decks. I just don't like the idea of Enlightened Tutor. I feel like putting in E-Tutor (and the appropriate package) cuts down on either the creature suite or permission.
Should I take CB out vs Jund? It seems like keeping a 2 on top is a bit difficult, even if you bring in RIP. Thoughts?
This is where I still favor the enchantment overload approach, unlike the SB-out enchantment to dodge hate approach. Say the game goes long into the attribution war, eventually, you need either RiP on the table to stop recurring PFire, or a CB floating a 2 to do the same. Either way, you need at least one Enchantment in play. Therefore, you want Jund to waste Abrupt Decay/Liliana Ultimate/Pulse on a particular enchantment.Quote:
Originally Posted by SevenInTheQueue
What is a good startegy against RUG delver?
I'm loosing due fast clock and mana denial(stifle) looks like i can't survive early game. Is there any way to play around stifle!?
Hold a land heavy Hand, crack the fetchies during his upkeep (or when he is tapped out obviously) so you get "the most" out of it, (or when he is tapped out obviously) and fetch for Basics to evade wastland. Postboard you should have some cheap counterspells,like Flusterstorm, maybe REBs (if you have enough Cards to board out), to counter their stifles.
cheers!Quote:
Originally Posted by Panda-san
A silly question forou guys.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObiuYkinXR8&t=9m5s
Is there any particular reason Lossett in this match activates top for entreat in his opp unkeep instead of his opp Eot?
Cheers
He cast Clique at the endstep and knew the contents of his opponents hand so he played around Daze. If he waits, his opponent can draw Force. If he doesn't wait, he wins on the spot because bug delver can't beat an Entreat that large g1 (they don't run Pulse, at least g1) if it resolves at that life total.
9 mins and 5 secondsQuote:
Originally Posted by Shawn
Edited above post with a response.
Sent from my SCH-R890 using Tapatalk
correct haven't realized a daze was in the oppo hand. thank youQuote:
Originally Posted by Shawn