Bruizar was talking about targeting your own Nemesis with Arena, which obviously works.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThediscoPower
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Bruizar was talking about targeting your own Nemesis with Arena, which obviously works.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThediscoPower
Runed Halo and Teferi's Moat are additional (terrible) answers to The Nemesis.
Ohh my bad i didn' t get that we were talking about our own nemesis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
I really like playing creature decks with a lot of on board tricks, so Maverick was my deck to play for the last two years (while switching and trying out a lot other decks in the meantime :D ). Though Maverick may not so well positioned in the current metagame as it was 1-2 years ago, but I'm always in for tweaking and trying different versions of the deck, because I (still) believe, that Maverick rewards the good and well prepared player.
My newest version features black, but first the list and then some words about it:
//Lands
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Horizon Canopy
//Creatures
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Qasali Pridemage
//Other
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
//Sideboard
4 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Golgari Charm
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Oblivion Ring
My main reason to play black is Abrupt Decay, because I'm a fan of this versatile, hard-to-stop removal spell. Also Deathrite Shaman is a strong addition to the deck, providing disruption, reach and acceleration in one card (Captn. Obv. ;) ).
Exalted is not that important, or better, not needed alongside 8 removal spells and 3 Stoneforge Mystics. Regarding these, I have to say, that I never was a fan of the Mystic in Maverick. Although it provides flexibilty and pressure, I mostly ran only 2 Umezawa's Jitte in the past.
My thoughts for playing now 3 of them were, that alongside 4 Mother of Runes and 1 Sylvan Safekeeper to protect the Mystic, I wanted a graveyard independent threat, because Knight of the Reliquary isn't the beatstick it used to be (but always involved in some sick turns tutoring up the lands you need). Unfortunately, I'm still not completely sold on having 3 Stoneforge Mystics, also Batterskull was a bit underwhelming in the games I played. I'm thinking of cutting 1 Mystic and the Batterskull to make some room for Planeswalkers, but I'm still not sure on that.
I also have to mention Scavenging Ooze, as this guy is just a beating at the moment, outplaying opposing Tarmogoyfs and Deathrite Shamans.
Due to having 8 removal spells in the maindeck, I'm fighting combo completely out of the sideboard, which is not the best plan, but I would say this is a sacrifice I'm willing to give for having a strong game one vs. a lot of decks.
Alongside 4 Thoughtseize I have 2 Ethersworn Canonist, 2 Thalia, 2 Surgical Extraction and 1 Gaddock Teeg + Oblivion Rings vs. S&T to fight the combo decks. Zealous Persecution and Golgari Charm are nice addition against Token fueled decks like Young Pyromancer.dec and Esper Blade, which are capable to overwhelm you pretty fast.
I'm testing the deck on Cockatrice at the moment (Woogerworks, Flodo) and the matchup vs. the different tempo decks is really good, you really have the removal to deal with their fast threats and afterwards you have the longer breath bevause of the threat density of your deck.
Combo is pretty difficult (always was), you have to draw the right half of your deck to beat that.
Vs. Shardless Bug I'm also having a hard time and I'm expecting the Jund matchup isn't easy either.
Never played this list vs. Miracles and I really want to test this matchup. Somehow I always ended up to tear up my opponents with Maverick, but this can't be very represantive for this matchup.
Greetings, Flodo
Sunyveil on feature match!
Hey Guys!
What would be your ideal version of maverick (splashes, vials or GSZ, etc). vs 4c aggro loam?
He devastates my dreams every week, and I am running out of store credit at my LGS :P
I have tried Rest in peace, stony silence, and a couple other cards as tech but need some help.
Terravore, Absolute Law, Burrenton Forge-tender, Sacred GroundQuote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
Also, this just came to me: 1 mana answer to fight Elves:
Spore Frog. #trollol
Might as well play genesis too, for infinite f(r)og!Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Active Mom is solid. Stone Forge Package is decent. RIP is a beating, but it does shrink your own knights so hopefully you have a way to beat down without KOTR. Well Timed RIP is very good thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
Thanks guys. I will totally try this and we will see who comes out on top. I think the enlightened tutor board is the way to go in this one with a couple of those tasty tricks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Also, spore froging an elf player is my new magic goal for the year.
Edit: I also just realized that Revoker on Mox Diamond should be pretty sick
What ever happened to dark depths? I'm running 1 dark depths and 1 thespian stage just as an alternative win with knight. I've played the list to death and it wins a ton of games for me. Knight isn't the premier threat it used to be so I ran the combo to make sure knight = gg. Of course playing the combo means no maze and no splashes which I believe is a worthwhile sacrifice.
By running the midrange busting behemoth that is the dark depths combo, I get to cut down on other mid rangy cards like sfm. I'm running zero sfm but still keep in 2 jittes because it's just such an all star equipment. I've used the free slots for 2 Aven Minscensor for additional hate bears against combo and control.
Imo deathrite sometimes shrinks our own knights and abrupt decay is not that critical since we have gsz and pridemage. Increasing the instant and sorcery count is also a nonbo with thalia.
After testing:
Black splash Mav= flimsy manabase, decay sometimes Uncastable w/o deathrite. Too high dependence on deathrite, eats through your own lands at times. However pros are: good at busting counterbalance against miracles, post board discard always useful against combo and control.
Vial Mav= loses gsz, flexibility is gone. Thalia is now just boss because it doesn't mess with gsz anymore. Anything combo or control is just down the crapper as you lose gsz for silver bullets. Vial is however boss vs blue midrange and control. Dodges Counterspells and prevents overextending into sweepers. Can have some crazy starts. Would play in a blue midrange meta.
Dark depths Mav= has gsz, so same old dependable tutoring. Gsz is messy with thalia and teeg at times but careful play makes it tolerable. Solid manabase means dark depths and thespian stage can be fit in. 4 gsz also means 8 knights, making assembling the combo easier. Dark depths is a house, it dominates the midrange. However gets blowned out by stifle. Can be remedied by not being greedy against tempo and just sticking to creature plan. Dark depths just destroys Jund and bug midrange. They have no outs to a 20/20 indestructible even if they shrink your knight to nothing and eat up all the ooze food. Thus assumes you have weenies to sac for liliana which shouldn't be an issue.
I think my list is probably trying to do too much but I'm running the Dark Stage combo with a black splash (a really Dark Maverick build).Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
I opt for vial over GSZ because with weathered wayfarer, you want to operate on fewer lands than your opponent. Also, vialing in dryad arbor on zero always puts a smile on my face.
1 Bayou
1 Dark Depths
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Aether Vial
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Mother of Runes
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Duress
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
That list looks super greedy but hey if you like Chapin-style do everything lists why not? Jack of all trades decks are good for pilots with superior play skill that can win their 50/50 matchups with tight play.
Also the 2 duress should be thoughtseize. I think the versatility is worth the pain. I would also play 2 jitte or a jitte and a sword over the batterskull/jitte split. Since you don't run 4 sfm, if you draw that batterskull, you will very likely be forced to hard cast it. I'd rather have jitte in that situation to plow through the field. Also since Mav has an endless stream of weenies, Batterskulls body is not critical.
I agree it's super greedy. I may move the abrupt decays to the sideboard. Deathrites are okay in the main I think since it can be cast with green. Perhaps I don't need 3 DRS+3 BoP when I'm running vials.Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
That's an excellent point about batterskull. I think I will opt for a jitte + SoFaI/SoFaF depending on meta.
I've found that I like duress better than thoughtseize in the matchups that need it, namely combo. What matchup would thoughtseize be better in specifically?
@ivanpei: actually when the Dark Depths trigger is stifled, the sacrifice part is also countered meaning it will stay in play with zero counters on it and will just trigger again.
really? could you be more specific?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihilis
Yeah, but if you stifle after the legend rule part, and stifle the "put a token into play," you've already sacced your stage (which is now a Dark Depths) so then I think you come out okay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihilis
-Matt
...with zero counters on it. Since the sacrifice is part of the effect (which you just stifled), it will just trigger again immediately.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Oh, I see. Damn :P
This is why I just prefer to kill the Knights before they untap :wink:
-Matt
Very interesting, so what are the possible blowouts that can disrupt the Depths + Stage combo?
I'm aware that stifle doesn't stop dark depths triggering as it will just trigger again due to state checking. I was referring to thespian stage being stifled when the copy is on the stack. If you are looking to race tempo and spend 2 turns activating knight for the combo and a full turn of mana activating the stage just to be timewalked by a stifle, you get blowned out. You are better off using knight to swing and try to race delver.
Thanks for pointing out my confusing statement though. Although if you have a ground stall, then yes the combo is pretty much stifle proof. Or stifle just buy a turn. The combo just packs so much power. I've actually raced a dreadnought-torpor orb deck before with t1 noble, T2 knight. His discard obviously went for my pridemage and gsz, but since I was packing the combo I buried him with knight.
Gw needs some explosive raw Power at times. Gw is a super fair deck, we don't have unfair shenanigans like punishing fire, bloodbraid, Jace, shardless into visions etc. The dark depths combo is the closest to broken shenanigans we can get for a very low cost of 1 potential dead card and 1 colourless land. With Nemesis entering the fray, we need some broken stuff to flatout race Nemesis.
Actually drawing the dark depths isn't that bad. I sand bag it and lay knight first usually. My opponent usually thinks he has 2 turns to end the game because I need 2 knight activations. When I Untap with knight the next turn I'll just lay the sandbagged dark depths and be like "surprise!" and activate knight for the other part of the combo.
I agree with ivanpei. Depths is a rock solid addition to Maverick, especially now that we're a little worried that our knights are getting all skinny.
@Ironclad
Instant speed bounce and exile spells can beat the token. That's pretty much it.
Karakas, Wasteland, Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Ensnaring Bridge, any flier with protection from black (say, a Scryb Ranger with a SoFaF), Maze of Ith, Humility, Aven Mindcensor (for KoTR searching)...Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
Lots of answers and when it is answered you're down a huge number of resources and will almost always lose.
Keep in mind though that we have pre-emptive answers to most their answers:Quote:
Originally Posted by barcode
Mangara/Waste their Karakas, Waste, Maze // STP their flier (Strix is the most common problem)
Marit Lage is merely a plan B which does not involve much downsides, apart from that singleton Dark Depths.
I'm very happy with my testing results so far (wins about 20% of my games) and assume that a large quantity Maverick builds will adopt that tech sooner or later, with sooner being better since many opponents are not prepared or even acquainted with this trick yet.
Why is Strix so bad for you in this situation? I mean sure they chump for a turn, but what deck playing Baleful strix actually has a way to remove Lage? Other than Lily/Jace Shardless is stone cold dead
Stage depths is a great addition to maverick. I was rocking it in the GSZ version but having switched to vial maverick recently based closely off Klaus and Doors shell I have to say the combo is straight better in the vial version. There must be around 5-6 cards total in the game that can tutor ANY land (at least legacy viable) and vial mav plays 3 of those :-)
As for answers to marit lage the most annoying so far ive found is submerge and karakas.
In addition to what Klaus wrote, you'll probably have Mother of Runes or Safekeeper in play before the Depths combo shows up. Mother beats blockers, Safekeeper deals with Karakas and Maze, though you probably shouldn't do the combo with Maze/Karakas/active Knight on the opponent's side.Quote:
Originally Posted by barcode
One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the fact that the combo should almost always be played on the end step. This eliminates a lot of things from the list of possible answers, reducing it to just the instant speed stuff. If you think the opponent can answer with anything at all, you can always just not do the combo and stick with plan A.
What are some thoughts regarding the choice of control-breaker:
Sigarda?
Planeswalker?
Equipment?
Thrun?
Considering this list:
3 Noble Hierarch
2 DRS
4 Mother of Runes
3 Thalia (downgraded to fit 2nd Ooze)
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
4 KotR
2 SFM
1 Jitte
1 SoFI
1 SoLS
4 GSZ
4 StP
2 Sylvan Library
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy (would like a 2nd)
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
So in this list I want to fit in one more top-end Zenith target; and I'm banking on Sigarda for that to beat Liliana & Emrakul alike. What do you guys think is the next most cutable creature/equipment? What would be the next most cutable land to get a 2nd Horizon Canopy?
EDIT: made some changes after initial thoughts and chats with other Maverick players.
-1 Verdant Catacombs
+1 Horizon Canopy
-1 KotR
+1 Sigarda
Alt: +1 KotR and go to 61 cards.
I'd say either DRS or Noble.
hi all,
in an open meta where im choosing to play Dark Maverick, Thoughtseize board, what would you suggest i do given the following choices?
a.) Thrun or Sigarda?
b.) Maze of Ith or Yavimaya Hollow?
edit: typos
I've recently picked up this deck and would be interested in hearing the response to these questions too.Quote:
Originally Posted by buloid
Also, if playing Dark Maverick with 3 Thalia main, would playing 2 Lingering Souls and 2-3 Thoughtseize main be too much anti-synergy especially given the context that there is also some anti-synergy with Teeg and GSZ?
Personally I would play thrun and maze of ith. I would put lingering souls in the sideboard, but thoughtseize is fine alongside thalia. Curving t1 thoughtseize t2 thalia is rad vs any combo deck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by personalbackfire
i agree. put the Souls in the sideboard, and having thoughtseize main is acceptable given that Thalia is almost always kill on sight to some decks.
@ironclad8690
interesting choices. that's my current setup now and i'm toying with Y. Hollow and Sigarda because Maze of ith is almost always useless against RUG where hollow is better for its attrition (forget wasteland for purposes of discussion) and the fact that it produces mana.
Sigarda wins vs Jund and Shardless Bug where Maze of Ith is also ok, but hollow doesn't do as much.
Also, given Sunyveil's new tech Master of the Hunt, would that be a better choice over Thrun? His MTGO setup has both Master and Sigarda main, but no Thrun! /confused
I'm following Sunyveil's tech closely and play a similiar list - I would go with Maze and Sigarda.Quote:
Originally Posted by buloid
I can't agree with the RUG analysis. Maze can still stop Delvers and Goyfs in a pinch. Sure, Hollow provides mana in certain match-ups where Maze is dead like disco, but I can't see the benefits of Hollow. Hell, I would rather run the DD combo over Hollow.
Landing Sigarda against Jund is a prime strategy to victory since they simply can't remove or stop it at all. Sigarda is pretty great as a high-end GSZ target, with only Terminus and other sweepers being a downside.
MotWH is mainly in the board against BUG Shardless since they have alot of trouble to remove it while his nuke ability wrecks them. He blows against anything running Bolts, though.
How would a GW version beat a deck like Show & Tell. In the old days, you could just run Gilded Drake or Blazing Archon to stop them from winning, but now a days a lot of people games 2 just wait to get there with Sneak Attack so you don't get a chance to have your fatty.
Thalia slows them down, but having such a fast clock to really threaten a Griselbrand is very tough. I have tried Linvala to stop Griselbrand activations since you can actually cast her... but still it is very slow and is just dead to Emrakul.
O-ring, KotR (into Karakas), Sigarda to prevent Emrakul blow-outs, Maze of Ith, Mom + flyer; or combinations of all of the above will help.Quote:
Originally Posted by oSeabass
Thoughts on the Dark Depths/Thespian Stage combo in Maverick. Is it worth adding in the extra lands to replace some of the other utility lands?
Also phyrexian revoker (though usually seen in vial versions). Combinations of weenies can be pretty good, thalia/teeg/pridemage + a well timed wasteland can be enough to tempo them out and tutor up karakas to seal the game. Crop rotation gives you another way to get karakas out of the board. Choke can even stop them sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
What was the latest evaluation of Loyal Retainers? Too clunky? Is Fauna Shaman not good enough? Does Dark Depths make it obsolete as a potential "I win" combo? Has anyone been using it successfully recently?
That's how you deal with S&T mainly. They normally need to find a Sneak Attack to win. Teeg slows them down, forcing them to S&T Sneak Attack into play. Pithing Needle is also great, since Revoker dies to Pyroclasm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby