[Deck] Imperial Painter

I just got back from a local 14 man tourney. I played this:

4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Imperial Recruiter(Last one is in the mail :( )
4 Pyroblast
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Grindstone
3 Chrome Mox
3 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Dragon Whelp
1 Faerie Macabre(Russian Signed :D )

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

Sideboard
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Trinisphere
3x Pyrokinesis
3x Faerie Macabre
1x Viashino Heretic
1x Silent Arbiter

As you can see, it's Legend's list with 1 MD change and like 4 Chalice. Yeah, it seems stupid, but I needed it.

Me vs UG Madness(house deck) 2-1
Game 1 - I keep a bad hand and draw lands for 4 turns(wtf). The game ends up with me chumping creatures left and right until I die. 0-1
Game 2 - Board out some junk for 3Spheres. I Painter+Jaya lock him. 1-1
Game 3 - I combo on turn 3. 2-1

Me vs 5c Slivers 1-2
Game 1 - I keep a great hand but get a bunch of junk draws. I lose. 0-1
Game 2 - City of Traitors, Painter. Tap City, Play another City, Grindstone ftw. 1-1
Game 3 - I lock everything down, but draw junk again. I get my Dragon Whelp killed like a tard and it causes me to lose. I am stupid. 1-2

Me vs Mono Green Enchantress Aggro 2-0
Game 1 - I win at 4 life. He didn't play many lands so I milled a lot of stuff before getting my Painter out. 2-0
Game 2 - 3Sphere gives me time to get a Painter down and blast away his board and swing with a Painter with a Sword. 2-0

Me vs Spring Tide 2-0
Game 1 - Turn 1 Grindstone. Turn 2 Painter. Turn 3 I try to go off, but he Snaps my Painter and I mill 8 cards. He uses 2 FoWs to stop my Painter (MD Blasts ftw). Just like the game with Enchantress Aggro, I mill like 20 cards from him and end up using Recruiter with a Sword to get me my Painter back. He tries to go off and fizzles, I win. 1-0
Game 2 - Board in Chalice and 3Sphere. First turn CotV@1. He counters my 3Sphere. I play CotV and he scoops. 2-0

I get placed 2nd. I think that in my meta, Magus is very mediocre right now. It kills a lot of decks like Landstill, 8Post(yeah, it's played), Breakfast and one of the Sliver decks, but most people only play basics and Terramorphic. I might consider dropping the Stompy manabase for a UR Fetch+Duals build with Trinket Mage and a mini toolbox. Some games I wished I was playing Trinket Mage, but then I lose all of my explosiveness and Magus hurts me a lot. I played like an idiot here and there, but I managed to do ok.

After doing minimal testing with this deck, I can honestly say, it's my favorite deck to ever play in Legacy. I just played a deck running 4 Blessings. First game was a tie. I won the next two thanks to Macabre. : )
Also, the only time I lost with this deck was the first time I played. I played against R/G Stompy and only lost because I was so new to the deck.

Has anyone done much testing with UR minus the Stompy manabase? After the Gencon results I haven't heard much else about this approach.

I just played a few games with mono-red MD using 3 Tops and 1 Goblin Welder. I first thought about using Welder again when the added SoLS provided extra artifacts to play with, but I'm trying Tops instead of SoLS. With extra artifacts (SoLS or Tops), is Welder worth it?

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Originally Posted by DrewliusMaximus

Has anyone done much testing with UR minus the Stompy manabase? After the Gencon results I haven't heard much else about this approach.

I just played a few games with mono-red MD using 3 Tops and 1 Goblin Welder. I first thought about using Welder again when the added SoLS provided extra artifacts to play with, but I'm trying Tops instead of SoLS. With extra artifacts (SoLS or Tops), is Welder worth it?

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I personally don't like Goblin Welder in this deck. He's ok for sneaking a Grindstone/Painter into play past counters, but isn't that why we run 8 Blasts+Vexing Shusher?

I'm considering Top as a one-of in a UR version. I don't feel that the Mono Red version has room.

Reasons TO run blue:
-Trinket Mage because fetches Grindstone and a bunch of neat artifacts(Crypt, Needle, Top and even Heap Doll was mentioned)
-Brainstorm/Ponder can be used to make better hands.
-Force of Will if you run enough blue.

Reasons AGAINST it:
-It's probably best to drop the Stompy mana base to support it.
-Duals/Fetch+Magus don't get along.
-Consistency drops a bit I think.

I dunno. I want more opinions. Those are my personal thoughts.

i've been playing a really budget version of this deck and found that splashing really hurts the consistency of my version of this deck. this is one of my favorite decks to play - amazing legacy deck.

A Legend, I may sound totally stupid by asking this but why play Magus over Blood Moon.

The pros of playing Magus:
He Attacks

The cons:
He dies to every instant creature removal in the game plus other removal if basics are out.
The deck is trying to win with Grindstone and milling not trying to swing.

Pros of Blood Moon:
It only dies to Deed and Vindicate and that's if they've color fixed

Cons:
It doesn't attack

Maybe I'm just not seeing something but it seems to me that Blood Moon with maybe 1 Magus to fetch with Imperial Recruiter would be better. Just a question.

Magus is tutorable via imperial recruiter...

Also, he is a beatstick :wink:

Yeah. Turn one Magus really shuts games down for opponents who thrive off non-basics. And most importantly, getting in there for two every turn while being able to shut off your opponent's mana supply is very good.

Splash in the tutor-effect that Imperial Recruiter provides and you've got the makings of one very pissed off Human Wizard.

I understand that but it seems that the strategies are very conflicting. Either beat down 20 life or Grind them to dust. I think 1 Magus of the Moon would be good because it can be tutorable but Blood Moon can't be destroyed except for decks that you should already destroy. I just think that people over look Blood Moon but Enchantments are the hardest things to get rid of in Legacy and if it truly does win you the game I wouldn't want that topdecked Plains into StP be GG for you ya know what I mean?

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Originally Posted by chokin

Reasons AGAINST it:
-It's probably best to drop the Stompy mana base to support it.

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It is. Not a reason against it.

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-Duals/Fetch+Magus don't get along.

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Play Basic Island(s), play Chrome Moxen. Moon Thresh is 3 colors and supports Moon effects. Enchantress is 3 colors and supports Blood Moon. Moons don't require playing a horrible manabase like Dragon Stompy or Mono-R Imperial Painter do.

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-Consistency drops a bit I think.

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a) The Dragon Stompy Manabase is inconsistent by nature.
b) Trinket Mage adds further consistency and flexibility.
-> Quite the opposite.

What you really sacrifice:
- Turn 1 Moon effect. This now requires Land + Chrome Mox + Simian Spirit Guide, which is not probable enough to do it on a regular basis. But turn 2 Moon effect still happens a lot.
- Goldfish Speed. No more Turn 1 Painter, Turn 2 Grindstone, win. But sacrificing speed for concistency is not too bad (especially in a deck that can protect its combo against counters, with Blasts).

Also, The Rack: I'm sure you can think of better Blood Moon removal than Deed or Vindicate.

Magus is really in there to soak up Swords to Plowshares as a target over Painter's Servant and to shut off an opponent's mana supply.

Ultimately, when Sword of Light and Shadow hits the table, your opponent rethinks their strategy because now you have a creature that has protection from cards like Swords and cannot be targeted, but need to be dealt with. This can confuse an opponent into making the wrong decision by putting them on the spot. Generally, if a Painter goes untouched, that's a good thing for you and it usually means you win the game.

No matter what anyone else tells you, the deck does not play like Dragon Stompy. You play a variety of control elements fastened around a set group of cards which are useful on their own terms. Just because both decks play Moon effects doesn't mean they are the same, just similar in a single specific aspect within a bigger picture. The similarities between the decks are there, but vague. You basically have more thinking to do with this deck than Dragon Stompy

Imperial Painter is a very confusing deck to play against and around because you don't win with Grindstone...but you can.

That's the frightening thing.

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Originally Posted by Brehn

Also, The Rack: I'm sure you can think of better Blood Moon removal than Deed or Vindicate.

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I meant that Deed and Vindicate are usually only the maindeck enchantment removal. Grip and other tricks come in game 2 but I think you knew what I meant.

Legend: I like the deck and am not attacking it at all but saying that Magus is there to soak up StP there are plenty of other better creatures that can do that. Have you ever considered playing Blood Moon in place of Magus? I think it's a valid argument that Blood Moon in many ways is better than Magus. My 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by A Legend

No matter what anyone else tells you, the deck does not play like Dragon Stompy. You play a variety of control elements fastened around a set group of cards which are useful on their own terms. Just because both decks play Moon effects doesn't mean they are the same, just similar in a single specific aspect within a bigger picture. The similarities between the decks are there, but vague. You basically have more thinking to do with this deck than Dragon Stompy

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That's true. That's also the reason for me not understanding:

Why on earth do you play with the Dragon Stompy manabase?

The DS manabase is good at powering out big threats early. In the first two turns, DS wants to play 2 spells whose converted mana costs add up to 5 or more. The manabase is designed to support that. However, playing 2 spells with a total cc of >4 in the first 2 turns is like cheating, so there have to be drawbacks. And there are some:
- DS mulligans a fuckton.
- After powering out these two spells, DS is often on 14 life or has sacrificed 2 City of Traitors.
- After powering out these two spells, not-too-lucky DS players always topdeck dead Chrome Moxen, lands and SSGs.
- The manabase makes the curve suck. Everything DS plays MUST cost 2, 2R or 3. Usual lists play 2 exceptions to this rule (RPD and Slogger) and both usually win the game if they're unanswered.

Let's look at your list.
- 4 cards costing 1 (you don't play Chalice so those are ok with the manabase)
- 12 cards costing R
- 1 card costing RR
- 2 cards costing 1RR
- 1 card costing 2RR
and you're playing a 1:1-copy of the DS manabase (sans Seething Song). How can this work? You don't want to power out early threats. Why bother playing a Turn 1 Painter when you can play it afterwards with REB-backup? Only exception: a first turn Magus. DS plays 8 Moons and the same manabase and doesn't always have the first turn Moon. If you have it, playing only 4 copies, you've just been lucky.

Edit: Another problem DS suffers from: if the first two threats are dealt with, it has a large amount of dead topdecks. Gray Ogres, Chrome Moxen, Lands; with no library manipulation. Look at your deck. If the first two threats are dealt with, you have an even larger amount of dead topdecks. Gray Ogres, Chrome Moxen, Lands and 8 R-costing instants that don't do anything; with no library manipulation.

@ Brehn - I think that first turn Magus is extremely powerful and can occasionally win games by himself. The mana base is good for first turn 3Spheres as well. Against combo, being able to play this early on can buy you 2+turns. I personally play Chalice right now, which I feel is more reasons to run the DS base. Also, I don't feel like Pyroblast or REB are dead all the time. They fight counters :P

I think the blue splash might be worth it. Trinket Mage can eliminate Grindstone slots(not sure if that's the best idea though) and allow singleton artifacts to be run. I'm sure there are some games where you were like "Damn I wish I had a Needle/Crypt/Top/ArtifactX".

I'm starting to lean more for the splash. I hope it doesn't cause a thread split lol.

Sure first turn Magus and first turn Trinisphere is great. But even with the DS manabase, you don't get it consistently. I'd rather just play Chrome Moxen and SSGs which still allow second turn Trinispheres and Magi - not too bad against combo, especially if you have outs to EtW.

And how can you get Chalice working in this deck? Are you playing massive amounts of Vexing Shushers?

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Originally Posted by Brehn

Sure first turn Magus and first turn Trinisphere is great. But even with the DS manabase, you don't get it consistently. I'd rather just play Chrome Moxen and SSGs which still allow second turn Trinispheres and Magi - not too bad against combo, especially if you have outs to EtW.

And how can you get Chalice working in this deck? Are you playing massive amounts of Vexing Shushers?

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I didn't feel I had to run more than the one Shusher. The reason is the matchups where I needed it most(Burn and Tide decks) it locked them out of EVERYTHING. I can still play Imperial Recruiter, Magus, Jaya, Sword, etc, so I could easily Recruit a Shusher and go for it or just swing with anything(since they can't do anything really).

Yes Brehn, first turn Magus and 3Sphere is not consistent. There are a maximum of 4 cards of a certain name in a 60 card deck. Of course you can't expect to get first turn Magus/3Spheres all the time. But with a Dragon Stompy mana base, you can also do first turn Recruiter to get a second turn Magus. With a non-DS base, you would have to get that second or third turn Recruiter into a third or fourth turn Magus.

Also, what outs do you have to EtW? Pyrokenisis maybe?

Quick question: Did anyone else see the Painter/Grindstone + Dreadnought/Stifle deck that won a recent European Vintage tournament?

Just because Chalice randomly wins some matchups doesn't justify its inclusion in this deck. It's dissynergy^2. A sideboard card at max. Running 4 Chalice and only 1 Shusher main in a Grindstone deck is pure madness. And I once thought that running Tarmogoyf + Jotun Grunt in the same deck is bad...

@Manabase: I don't actually recommend cutting all two-mana lands. I just don't understand why A Legend's (and he's probably not the only one) manabase looks like this:

8 Two-Mana Lands
10 One-Mana Lands
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide

when this is the exact Dragon Stompy manabase, copied and pasted, just that this deck has an extremely different curve and extremely different mana requirements.

For example, have a look at Maveric68f's manabase in the list he posted on the last page:

8 Two-Mana Lands
12 One-Mana Lands
4 Chrome Mox

Or the manabase of the list I've posted before:

17 One-Mana Lands
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide

I have no idea if one of these manabases is optimal. I just know: The DS manabase is designed to support DS's requirements. Therefore it can't be optimal for Imperial Painter. You don't play Threshold with Landstill's manabase either (Well, actually you do and call it Dreadstill :P ). Those 2 other manabases might or might not be correct, this has to be tested.

Rush:
a) You could have just linked it
b) it's Vintage
c) does it even run Recruiter?

No need to be nasty.

-PR

Edit @ Outs to EtW: Pyroclasm, Firespout, Pyrokinesis, Powder Keg, Goblin Sharpshooter are playable.

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Originally Posted by Brehn

Rush:
a) You could have just linked it
b) it's Vintage
c) does it even run Recruiter?
d) gtfo

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While I agree with your arguments on the mana requirements of this deck there is no reason to get nasty with Rush. I have PMed him for the list as I am very interested in some tech that MIGHT be portable to Legacy.

I was searching 2-power creatures and I found Llawan, Cephalid Empress. Has anyone tried her in a UR build? Seems like a hell of a 1-of.