[Deck] The Rock

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Originally Posted by damionblackgear

What are we doing about the Progenitus deck? I've cut swords and used Edicts now. It's been working but I'm expecting this deck to pop up since it's really solid, even though it's still being tuned.

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The sacrifice effect cards are only good if Progenitus is the only creature that they have out. And using non swords will just weaken every other match up. Depending on your build, the best way i see it is to preemptively stop it with discard. I have 4 thoughtseize main, 4 duress side. Against thresh put all that hand hate in and hope to keep natural order out. Also i have gaddock teeg in my side board which stops natural order from being cast.

Another way to stop him would be wing shard type cards. (hopefully he just attacks with Progenitus)

Double white is a pain to get especially when its your splash color.
Fleshbag Marauder and Diabolic Edict should do you just fine.
Atleast against Threshold, generally the only time sacrifice effects are uneffective are against decks with manlands (espcially if they have loam/Cruicible). Otherwise you run enough removal that you should be in good shape. I prefer Diabolic Edict against Threshold anyways. Them gaining 4-6 life off a goyf can be painful, and edict is better against Mongeese anyhow.

So I was thinking and about it the other day after I spoke with an acquaintance/buddy and with the rising popularity of combo as well as counterbalance and natural order decks, a rock build with insanely explosive/disruptive opening turns could be very good.

I was playing around with a GBr build that has veteran explorers, thoughtseize, terminate and cabal therapies as well as suprise red stuff in the sideboard. I haven't got a lot of matches in yet compared to other stuff that I have been playing with, but so far the deck can completely destroy a game before it has even started. With absurd turn sequences that go:

t1-thoughtseize
t2-explorer therapy, flashback, two lands, goyf, go

The problem I have been facing is that between the lands and thoughtseizes, the deck loses a fair amount of life as it stands for a deck that wants to have a decent midgame against random jank. So, this coupled with tombstalkers and an average cc of two or so would make confidants pretty ugly to add. As a result, I have been using this list:

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// Lands
5 [US] Forest (4)
1 [U] Taiga
1 [TSP] Mountain (4)
4 [U] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [A] Bayou
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [PLC] Harmonize
4 [PS] Terminate
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
1 [LRW] Profane Command
2 [FNM] Smother

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 4 [DK] Blood Moon
SB: 3 [TE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip

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I am not married to the sideboard, but the sideboard isn't what I want to fix anyway.

What I think is more of an obstacle is fixing the issue of threats or their density to allow for a more consistent clock.

Edit:
I just tuned the list into this, which doesn't feel as "safe" necessarily, but it seems to cruise into the redzone better and has a bigger range of high-impact plays. I cut the lands down by one, even though I really loath mana screw. Badlands also seemed like a better fit than taiga.

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// Lands
5 [US] Forest (4)
1 [TSP] Mountain (4)
3 [U] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [A] Bayou
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [R] Badlands

// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [PS] Terminate
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
3 [FNM] Duress

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 4 [DK] Blood Moon
SB: 3 [TE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip

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I like you list, just a couple of things-
Explorer and Blood Moon dont play nice together, while i suppose you could just side out the explorers for the Moons I dont know if you really want the moons.
I'd suggest playing Jund Charm in that spot, its very versatile and almost never a dead draw.

Also, play 3x Sensei's Divining Top, in a deck that is 50% answers you want to make sure you're drawing the right answer. It'll also make confidant a lot less painful, I'd drop the 3 swords for it.

All of your removal sits at 2cc, I'd either replace the smothers or 1x smother and 1x terminate for 2x Putrefy, Shriekmaw, or Fleshbag Maruader.

Playing 4x tombstalker can painful on the yard, im not saying its not doable (and often times when u hit dbl explorer u can just hardcast) but I'd knock it down to 3 and cut 1x witness or the profane command to stick in 2x of another threat.
You dont really get many more options for beaters from playing red outside of maybe Deus of Calamity or Rumbling Slum.
Spirit Monger may be the better choice.

Spiritmonger is beyond terrible in that regeneration is seldom useful, changing colours is useless, the inflation effect is also largely useless and the five mana cost is underwhelming for its vulnerability and size. I would sooner run gigapede.

Look at the list closer: there are three 'stalkers. You are mixing up the two lists or ignoring the edit altogether or something.

Explorer doesn't combine amazingly with bloodmoon, but honestly, with nine discard slots in the deck, four of which come back and rip out multiples, it has been working fine in the matches that I have been siding it in for.

While I like top, I thought about running it in this build and then I took the idea that top just improves card quality and does not actually fill any holes, like smashing my opponent's face.

One of the biggest reasons for going red is terminate, blasts and to a lesser extent, blood moons.

This is how the list has changed in the last day with testing...not a big change, but noticeable in that I was getting flooded with deeds that I wasn't using that much. As a result one got cut for another sword, which I am always finding myself wanting.

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// Lands
5 [US] Forest (4)
1 [TSP] Mountain (4)
3 [U] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [A] Bayou
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [R] Badlands

// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [PS] Terminate
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
3 [FNM] Duress
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 4 [DK] Blood Moon
SB: 3 [TE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

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I have been thinking about white for vindicate and Teeg, but the blasts are proving absolutely awesome.

Since you are playing red, have you tried Burning Tree Shaman?

have you tested spiritmonger at all? Regeneration is useful in that wins ground wars, you just run him into opposing goyfs until hes big enough to kill them, while the strategy is sloppy, its effective. Personally I'd rather have something big with trample. I like Diety of Scars to an extent, because he tramples, contends with goyfs, and regens under a big deed. I dont know about your meta, but I blow deed for 8 against multiple Tombstalkers often.

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While I like top, I thought about running it in this build and then I took the idea that top just improves card quality and does not actually fill any holes, like smashing my opponent's face.

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With 8 fetches Top is going to help you find those threats a lot quicker.
And yeah, I think I probably mixed up the two lists.

I'll have to shuffle this up and try it out to give better input, but the idea of blasts SB sound pretty awesome.

I ran spiritmonger in a notably slower RockSur build that ground battles of attrition would happen more often with and I absolutely hated them. I also used to run them in the place of hermits back in the day. They were good then, but they absolutely suck now when most things that creatures die to don't leave room for regen.

I'm going to be thinking about what a white list may look like. There is one that uses them that I saw on deckcheck and it looked interesting in that it would capitalize on the disruption and burst of speed afforded by explorer by having goyfs and wishes to hate the opponent out of the game.

That sounds okay to me, but with the rise of thresh that runs NO+P, CB and combo, I find the idea of ending the game quickly with a blitz of discard, card advantage and hefty beats to be a bit more attractive.

Blasts are extremely sexy right now. Biggups to Emidln for mentioning how good they are. Nobody sees them coming.

Jund charm is cool and versatile, I just don't run them because I don't really see myself siding them in against many of the decks that I am aiming to rape with this build.

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Originally Posted by citanul

You can't live in constant fear of certain cards :).

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While this is true I still do not want to get caught without an out to the situation. I'm not expecting Gobs to make a big impression since most people are expecting it too and planning accordingly.

On a brighter note. I went to a 56 person tournament and T8ed with the deck. Irronically I ended up taking Edicts out most matches (would have taken swords too though) My losses where to Uwr Thresh (my own play error) and Merfolk (still thinking on this one). So the deck is still good... sometimes it's the pilot's fault.

@damianblackgear: Why would you ever take out StP for Edicts? Best spot removal ever getting cut just for 1x card??? Everyone is blowing Progenitus way the hell out of proportion. Its not that hard to deal with. In the SB run either Fleshbag Marauder (also good against Stiflenought) OR Circle of Protection: any color. In my Rock list I run COP: Red in the SB since I repeatedly play against Burn and Goyf Sligh. I am not trying to downplay how effective Natural Order + Progenitus is but seriously, don't get all freaked out about it and especially don't take out StP.

To sum up answers to Progenitus: Fleshbag Marauder (played for its CC against Counterbalance)

ANY Circle of Protection that isn't Lands or Artifacts. COP: Red and green will be the best choices I think!

Maybe I am over-reacting for the single card but, after some testing, I'm not noticing much of a difference between the two. I'm even starting to like edict over swords... now. I know that we can't hit a frist turn critter but what critter are we that worried about first turn. Edict + Deed have been solving every creature issue I could possibly have (including the one timmy deck that played troll and hooked up a jitte to it... I don't expect to see this again anytime soon). I've decided that I'm gonna test for the rest of this week with Edict and decide if I like it or not before Friday. There's another 1.5 Match on Thursday in my area so I think that'll be a good testing ground.

I was wondering what you guys thought about Loxodon Hierarch vs Kitchen Finks. Currently I am running Doran, the siege tower so I am leaning towards Loxodon Hierarch. Basically do you think that Loxodon Hierarch is too slow? I know that kitchen finks can really help against and fast aggro deck. Life gain and two turns of blocking and killing. Though I do run 4 Sakura Tribe Elders to help combat the quickness of other decks which leads me to my acces to 4 lands on my 3rd turn.

Thanks

Test the two and figure out which you like more.

I use finks in a Survival Rock build, but I bet my deck is quite different from yours.

Finks is very good, 2 turns of blocking and 4 life, and sometimes, when you need time, it's even you eternal witness target. I decided not to play loxodon in my deck, I preferred to put doran instead.

It really depends on what kind of mana acceleration you run and what your curve looks like.
I like finks because of the often built in card advantage, but loxodon has a nice body that can often lead to him sticking around for quite a while- especially because deed is more oft blown at 3 than 4.

I would like to get some decks posted then others critique it. Explain what you think the decks weakness is and what its bad match ups would be. I will start with my list.

creature [20]
3 Dark Confidant
3 Doran, the Siege Tower
3 Eternal Witness
3 Loxodon Hierarch
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Tarmogoyf
instant [4]
4 Swords to Plowshares
sorcery [8]
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
enchantment [3]
3 Pernicious Deed
artifact [3]
3 Sensei's Divining Top
land [22]
3 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Forest
2 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Windswept Heath
60 cards
Sideboard:
1 Gaea’s Blessing
4 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Plague
4 Duress
15 cards

I have tested against Adnaseum Storm deck. The 4 duress and 4 extirpate seem to be enough to beat it. Two hand hate cards plus a quick clock or extirpate will do it. Even extirpating the first dark ritual messes them up. The best is extirpating the mystical tutor haha. As for other matchups, the deck just has bigger threats and with sensei's divning top (11 shuffle effects) allowing me to draw business every turn, it is a very powerful deck.

So let me know and feel free to post yours and so we can discuss what is better.

Allright, since I went Top 8 Last sunday With My BG rock deck I figured I's post a Small report on how the matchup's went :)

I didn't take note's so sorry if I left out some important facts.

First (obviously) the decklist:

B/G The Rock:
Main Deck:
3x Sensei’s Divining

2x Tombstalker
3x Eternal Witness
2x Krosan Tusker
3x Ravenous Baloth
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
4x Tarmogoyf

4x Pernicious Deed

3x Smother
3x Putrefy

4x Bayou
3x Bloodstained Mire
4x Forest Land
3x Swamp
1x Volrath’s Stronghold
4x Wasteland
3x Wooded Foothills

2x Duress
1x Profane Command
4x Thoughtseize

Sideboard
2x Tormod’s Crypt
4x Engineered Plague
3x Choke
3x Extirpate
3x Krosan Grip

Some thinks worth mentioning:

Ravenous Ballot OWNED, the fact that it's almost impossible to STP, and the fact that is provide's a decent clock, and isn't easily blocked to death (looking at you kitchen finks) make's me question why people run finks over this guy...

Profane Command was so damn good I don't get why it doesn't show op in other decklists...

On to the matchup's:

Rond 1: Goyfsligh
G1: My sakura time walks his goyf, I drop balloth, is whit ness balloth and draw my next one (yeah, he knew it was over...)
G2: same as above, only ad in profane command for the kill+more balloth's
1-0

Rond 2: Faery Stompy
G1 he has a slow start, I resolve an early deed and tusker goe's for the throat
G2: he needle's dee, i putrefy needle play deed and command his sea drake to get back my balloth.
2-0

Round 3: F-MUC (played by the one and only Fahad himself)
G1: Eventualy he get's the best of me deed's shackle's and stuf fly over and over but eventualy he wins...
G2: we both get mana shy but I have top, find my 2nd land and uwe sakura to get into the game, I resolve choke (after duressing annul) and big bitches go FTW
G3: same as Game 2 but this time HE is manaflooded (when I duress and thoughtseize his FoF and shackles) and top just find's me what I need to keep on winning...
3-0

Round 4: Rgb Goblins
G1: I don't find my deed in time and goblins swarm the field
G2: This was nasty, I smother annoying stuff, and after dropping top I find 3 plague's +2 witnesses... GG? :D
G3: I go double deed, and again find 3 plague's. He scoops while I reveal my top card : the 4th plague
4-0

Round 5: Goblin
We ID :) I could've played but I know this guy and he's the best goblin player around... Also he's a good friend so we're Ok with the free time we have :)

Round 6: Solidarity
I'm just so happy he dicides to ID... That deck just kills me

Top 8:
UWB landstill (Speedstill)
G1: This is a long worn out game and eventually he resolve's elspeth and keeps my board clear...
G2: I bait a counter with a goyf he TAPS OUT to hardcast Fox (he didn't have Anny blue left in his hand), I play choke, and ride my bitches to victory
G3: I blew it with my 1 land hand that consists of: SDT, Duress, Thoughtseize, Swamp, Sakura tribe elder, E-witness, and some random card, I start with duress, I see 4 lands+landstill, Tideholow Sculler (yeah, WTF!!!!), and a vindicate... I never found my next land and that was that...


I hope anyone finds something useful in this (verry short) report. I'm very pleased with the deck since its so freaking consistent and everything short of land and sakura tribe elder is a bomb (against ichorid it just owns...) or a removal spell (deed= A bomb)


I go to pik up my price support (a judge foil cunning wish, and 3 booster of which one contains a noble hierarch...)

Prop's:
This deck for being so freaking badass
Tasty and cheap sandwiches :D
Boosters with not only crap
Nice mood
Friendly people

Slop's:
Me not mulling in the last game
The sandwiches running out
Nobody else from my team got in the top 8

Wondering what you guys think of my build.
It leans a little more to graveyard recursion, so I am quite vulnerable to graveyard hate.

4 Dark Confidant
2 Doran, the Siege Tower
2 Eternal Witness
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Unearth
3 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands
3 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
2 Savannah
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Windswept Heath

Your list is similar to mine, but I don't play neither top or sakura. I play instead +1 Witness, +1 Unearth, +4 Thoughtseize, +1 Vindicate. My problem is like yours, graveyard hate, I was thinking to put 2/3 Hymn to Tourach or Pithing Needle maindeck to help against it.
The obvious solution would be to cut Unearth, but we like the Eternal Witness trick so much :wink:

I don't really like the cabal therapy. Do you just wait for a kitchen finks to sac to it? STE usually it is good to get the land so you can ramp up to play deed and activate in the same turn or you want the land because most decks run wastelands. I would just run the 4 thoughtseize. I don't like Doran in your list, because you run Eternal Witness, KF and DC. If you want to keep Doran maybe try Loxodon Hierarch instead of the finks. Unearth you have to wait till one of your good creatures goes to the grave yard (and not be stp'd) I would rather another vindicate or another creature itself.