[Deck] Solidarity

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

Disrupt is only really good against their cantrips. FoW and Twincast are far superior.

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I did the Solidarity+Disrupt vs TES matchup, playing TES. The strategy against solidarity is quite simple: you're the aggressor and need to combo out in the first 3 turns, otherwise solidarity will just outplay you. Usually you want to accelerate to the first or second turn, so remand doesn't enter the equation and you just have to play against 4xFoWs, with barely a 40% that your opponent holds it, and this without counting your chants and duresses.

When disrupt enters the equation you have to worry about 7 counters on turn 1, and a possible counter for your turn 1 duress.
So basically, on turn 1 you have to combo through 4FoW+3Disrupt, on turn 2 against 4FoW+3Disrupt+4Remand, turn 3 adds cunning wish ->misdirection (for Chant) and turn 4 adds cunning wish->Hydroblast or disrupt and, obviously, the chance of going off.

Seems like disrupt does just a little, but the "daze" effect without the tempo loss and with added card advantage changes the matchup completely.

Right now my testing in this matchup shows 5-2 in Solidarity's favor.

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

I did the Solidarity+Disrupt vs TES matchup, playing TES. The strategy against solidarity is quite simple: you're the aggressor and need to combo out in the first 3 turns, otherwise solidarity will just outplay you. Usually you want to accelerate to the first or second turn, so remand doesn't enter the equation and you just have to play against 4xFoWs, with barely a 40% that your opponent holds it, and this without counting your chants and duresses.

When disrupt enters the equation you have to worry about 7 counters on turn 1, and a possible counter for your turn 1 duress.
So basically, on turn 1 you have to combo through 4FoW+3Disrupt, on turn 2 against 4FoW+3Disrupt+4Remand, turn 3 adds cunning wish ->misdirection (for Chant) and turn 4 adds cunning wish->Hydroblast or disrupt and, obviously, the chance of going off.

Seems like disrupt does just a little, but the "daze" effect without the tempo loss and with added card advantage changes the matchup completely.

Right now my testing in this matchup shows 5-2 in Solidarity's favor.

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I realise exactly what the TES vs Solidarity matchup is all about, since it's probably the matchup I played most. FoW + Twincast is just as much a strong strategy as FoW + Disrupt. TES can't hope to combo out turn 2 unprotected, and Twincast gives you essentially a timewalk + a Duress on his Chant. The effect when cast on Chant is pretty much ideal. Twincast on Duress is usually just as good, as it will probably set the opponent back a couple of turns.

Also, Remand barely matters, Especially against TES. It's all about resolving a Chant, and Remand just sucks against that card.

Question to the gods of Solidarity:

How do you approach the 8-land Stompy matchup? I'm asking because in our last Legacy FNM (we actually have that) I was playing that deck in the final and lost 1-2 because I really couldn't cope with his army. Threatening a potential turn3 kill I FoW'ed each and every of the creatures he dropped but therefor soon ran out of gas and got overwhelmed by just even more guys.

The choice was to either remove cantrips or business spells for FoW. The former results in fewer landdrops and later drags out the game for too long. I didn't dare to meditate pre-combo against a deck that can easily deal >10 dmg. a turn.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

Question to the gods of Solidarity:

How do you approach the 8-land Stompy matchup? I'm asking because in our last Legacy FNM (we actually have that) I was playing that deck in the final and lost 1-2 because I really couldn't cope with his army. Threatening a potential turn3 kill I FoW'ed each and every of the creatures he dropped but therefor soon ran out of gas and got overwhelmed by just even more guys.

The choice was to either remove cantrips or business spells for FoW. The former results in fewer landdrops and later drags out the game for too long. I didn't dare to meditate pre-combo against a deck that can easily deal >10 dmg. a turn.

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I usually FoW the first threat. Side in cheap bounce, it works wonders against pump spells.

Just a quick hello to the Solidarity players. I'm a former (unpowered) Vintage player that got tired of competing with deck his monthly salary couldn't buy. I've decided to start over in Legacy.

I was looking through various forums for decks to build, and thought you should all know that I settled on Solidarity primarily due to this thread. It gave me a good feel for how the deck played, and also the challenges it faces (who wants to play eazy-mode, eh?).

I have never played mono blue before, so I am starting out with a proxy deck using the decklist from the first post. I have a few questions about when I should try and combo out:

a) What should I have in my hand, minimum, before I try and combo?

b) How many lands should I have untapped/available?

c) Should I be doing anything more than draw-go until I combo out? It would seem that I would be wasting storm spells if I use them early.

-Silent Requiem

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

Just a quick hello to the Solidarity players. I'm a former (unpowered) Vintage player that got tired of competing with deck his monthly salary couldn't buy. I've decided to start over in Legacy.

I was looking through various forums for decks to build, and thought you should all know that I settled on Solidarity primarily due to this thread. It gave me a good feel for how the deck played, and also the challenges it faces (who wants to play eazy-mode, eh?).

I have never played mono blue before, so I am starting out with a proxy deck using the decklist from the first post. I have a few questions about when I should try and combo out:

a) What should I have in my hand, minimum, before I try and combo?

b) How many lands should I have untapped/available?

c) Should I be doing anything more than draw-go until I combo out? It would seem that I would be wasting storm spells if I use them early.

-Silent Requiem

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First of all welcome to The Source and Congrats for picking Solidarity it's a fun deck that will teach you a lot about the stack. This thread is great for asking questions and we are lucky to have some great Solidarity players to help us.

A. You should be looking for High Tide, Meditate and an Untap spell, cunning wish is also great.

B. Thats the great thing about Solidarity you combo when you need to, just try to make a land drop every turn. When your opponent swings with lethal damage you can respond by comboing out.

C. Play your cantrips you need lands to win so missing a land drop can cost you the game. Remember your not just a combo deck your the control deck too.

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

Just a quick hello to the Solidarity players. I'm a former (unpowered) Vintage player that got tired of competing with deck his monthly salary couldn't buy. I've decided to start over in Legacy.

I was looking through various forums for decks to build, and thought you should all know that I settled on Solidarity primarily due to this thread. It gave me a good feel for how the deck played, and also the challenges it faces (who wants to play eazy-mode, eh?).

I have never played mono blue before, so I am starting out with a proxy deck using the decklist from the first post. I have a few questions about when I should try and combo out:

a) What should I have in my hand, minimum, before I try and combo?

b) How many lands should I have untapped/available?

c) Should I be doing anything more than draw-go until I combo out? It would seem that I would be wasting storm spells if I use them early.

-Silent Requiem

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The best tip I can give you when playing this deck, is to see this deck as a control deck, not as a combo deck. You always win when you are forced to, not as soon as you can.

a) I can't give too much specifics here, since the deck allows you to win with many many posible hands. For me the magic 3 is High Tide, Meditate and Reset. Those will usually get you quite far. It's good to have one or two cards next to them, like Impulse or Cunning Wish.

b) The minimum is 3, but this will require multiple Tides. Unless you absolutely have to, don't try it. 4 is the standard number, and if you choose your cantrips the right way, you will very often be able to win on turn 4. This doesn't mean it's right to win on turn 4, and to take those cantrip choices for that matter.

c) You're not wasting spells by cantripping, since they wil replace themselves with cards generally suited better for the situation. It can be strong to have an Impulse in hand when comboing, but I'd probably always cast it before the combo (now that I think of it, this might not even be the right call at all times).

Be warned though. Almost every game you play with Solidarity is going to be a fight, and many games will be (actually seem) very close. You won't have succes with the deck if you're not familliar with it. If you like this deck enough to put time into it, practice alot and get familliar with choices like cantrip decisions, FoW targets and ways to play around counters.

I never succeeded in winning counter-stack-war, because expert players will counter the untap effect, and that runs you out of mana resources.
Example.
We should have great match up vs landstill, it should be a bye. They also have loads of dead cards (the removals)
But first we need at least 4 lands, so we use cantrips and also remand, just to find lands!
we play 18 land, they play 23/24, so they hit better land drop statistically. When we start high tide, they sit down and wait the reset/turnabout, and they can cast counterspell with only 1 land.
Maybe I was extremely unlucky but I lost almost every game.
The deck weak point is that when you combo, you are not sure at 100% that you will win! You just draw cards, and drawing 3 lands off a meditate really put you on Mars.
Consider that when you "go off", you cannot play a fetchland (90% you won't be in your mainphase), and you have 14 lands in the deck remaining. The more you draw, the more you can fizzle.
Any other combo deck is different in the sense that "I go off" = "I win @100%

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Originally Posted by slyfer

Any other combo deck is different in the sense that "I go off" = "I win @100%

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I disagree I have played several combo decks and I have found Solidarity to be the most consistent.

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Originally Posted by slyfer

I never succeeded in winning counter-stack-war, because expert players will counter the untap effect, and that runs you out of mana resources.
Example.
We should have great match up vs landstill, it should be a bye. They also have loads of dead cards (the removals)
But first we need at least 4 lands, so we use cantrips and also remand, just to find lands!
we play 18 land, they play 23/24, so they hit better land drop statistically. When we start high tide, they sit down and wait the reset/turnabout, and they can cast counterspell with only 1 land.
Maybe I was extremely unlucky but I lost almost every game.
The deck weak point is that when you combo, you are not sure at 100% that you will win! You just draw cards, and drawing 3 lands off a meditate really put you on Mars.
Consider that when you "go off", you cannot play a fetchland (90% you won't be in your mainphase), and you have 14 lands in the deck remaining. The more you draw, the more you can fizzle.
Any other combo deck is different in the sense that "I go off" = "I win @100%

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If you plan on going off with 4 lands against Landstill it's logical that you lose. I don't see any reason to go off as soon as possible against a deck with no early pressure. Just keep playing lands and sculpting your hand. The more lands you drop, the more mana you get and the less dependancy you have on a resolved High Tide.

@slyfer: Don't go for it that early! The great thing about Landstill is the fact it applies close to no pressure on you. From my (still little) experience I can tell that Remanding a spell they try to counter is an important move in this matchup.

Also, baiting counters with Meditate EOT (and eventually Remanding it back) is godly against them. If they let the Meditate resolve, you can easily beat them even Main Phase 1. If they counter, you Remand - if they let remand resolve you've gained CA and removed a counter, if they counter Remand - they've got 2 counters less.

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Originally Posted by slyfer

Any other combo deck is different in the sense that "I go off" = "I win @100%

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I understand what you are saying. Unlike other combo decks, we do not have all the pieces in front of us when we start to combo. We are relying on a certain amount of luck to draw a chain of cards that we can use to resolve a lethal freeze.

That said, I disagree that this makes us more vulnerable than other combo. In fact, it is quite the reverse. If we take Dragon as an example, the combo falls apart to a well timed swords to plowshares. Every combo has at least one lynchpin. The difference between Dragon (and other combo) and Solidarity, is that we become less vulnerable to counters over time.

I say this because we do not rely on a specific order of cards. We are, in a sense, making things up as we go along, which allows us to be flexible. And the more time we have, the longer we have had to build a mana base and tune our hand.

And to top it all off, their attempts to counter actually help us! Providing I can win the counter war or play around, I may actually find it easier to hit critical storm values.

I have to say, I am really enjoying this deck.

-Silent Requiem

Wellcome to The Source Silent Requiem
It's clear you understand the philosophy of the deck... and with only 2 posts! :smile:

As you said, the fact that we don't need to follow a certain chain of spells, is not a weaknes, its an advantage: we don't need to play any specific spell! Any!

To slyfer: as some have said, don't try to go out with only 4 lands against landstill... try with 7-8, you will win every stack-war, and if you don't win that war, try it again the next turn, you have plenty of time!

Hah, that's what I though too, but on the last tournament I played the Landstill player drew manlands (and Goyfs g2) like crazy. xD

Thanks for the warm welcome, everyone. :smile:

Just a tip for other new players (I doubt the old, established players will need tips from newbies like me): practice.

I have found the following exercise to be VERY helpful in coming to understand the deck.

Goldfish and combo out. Sounds simple right? Well, it was really difficult for me at first. I started with the following limitations:

a) I assume I go first (less card advantage)
b) I MUST combo out by (opponent’s) turn 6.
c) I MUST combo out earlier than turn 6 if I have at least 4 untapped lands.
d) I MUST Brain Freeze 18 times to win.

Failure to meet any of the above conditions results in a loss.

Just playing with those restrictions helped me understand the deck a lot. It taught me not to just topdeck to 4 lands… I had to aggressively hunt for those lands if I didn’t want to have to combo out with 3 lands on turn 6! It also taught me a lot about card interactions.

Here are some of the synergies I discovered.

Brainstorm & Impulse: One of the great things about Brainstorm is the ability to throw away dead cards (normally land). The problem is then that you have rubbish on top of your library. Follow up with Impulse to put those dead cards on the bottom of your library. This also makes Impulse safer; I hate pulling Reset, High Tide, Cunning Wish and Brain Freeze and then having to throw 3 away!

Brainstorm & Opt: Not quite as good as Impulse, Opt also helps clear the rubbish left by Brainstorm. Just make sure you put the card you do want on your library first; you want to look at your top card and then put it on the bottom, drawing the second card. This leaves your library clean. Simply drawing the first card leaves you with another dead card on the library.

Remand + another: In a pinch, when mana allows, countering your own spell acts as a cantrip. It has saved me more than once when I had loads of mana generation but no more draw cards.

Brain Freeze & Brain Freeze: As stupid as it sounds, I started off storming all the way up to 18 before Freezing. This taught me a great deal about storming, and I can now storm to 18 with 4 lands most of the time, but it is SO much easier to just storm to 9 and Freeze twice. I had probably run about 20 games before this occurred to me!

Now that my initial conditions are easily met, I add one or more of the following limitations to challenge myself:

a) I MUST defend my first Reset from a counter spell.
b) I MUST combo out by turn 5.
c) I MUST combo out as soon as I have 3 untapped lands (very tough).
d) I MUST finish my opponent off on the turn I combo out (so I need to follow up with Stroke of Genius).

I hope this was helpful rather than just blindingly obvious.

-Silent Requiem

@ Silent Requiem

I certainly look at testing the boundaries of a deck as being an informative and necessary part of learning any deck. I certainly think what you described is an important part of knowing how to play. Goldfishing is more productive than most people think, but it must be done in context. Unfortunately, Solidarity is easily misunderstood in pure goldfishing, simply because many tend to focus so heavily on the combo without thinking about the rest of the framework.

I think the combo aspect of the deck conceals the truth about Solidarity: Solidarity is a control deck.

Solidarity is a reactive deck that molds around an opponent's gameplan. As such, setting conditions to 'when' you must go off should consider the gamestate more than most of the factors you've listed. Yes, it is good to know what to takes to "go off" (and goldfishing gives you good practice), because you'll definitely need to know when you can appropriately convert into the aggro role, but goldfishing does not provide a good framework for understanding the control role played by this deck.

As with most control decks, you need to be testing against actual opponents as much as possible. Because of the control role the deck plays, goldfishing will have limited experience and information to offer a Solidarity pilot.




peace,
4eak

Concerning the Brain Freezes: I almost never make enough storm to win with a single Brain Freeze. The storm count should be seen as a byproduct of trying to find the opportunity to cast 2 Brain Freezes (or Freeze + Remand) and a Turnabout or a Stroke.

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

Thanks for the warm welcome, everyone. :smile:

Just a tip for other new players (I doubt the old, established players will need tips from newbies like me): practice.

I have found the following exercise to be VERY helpful in coming to understand the deck.

Goldfish and combo out. Sounds simple right? Well, it was really difficult for me at first. I started with the following limitations:

a) I assume I go first (less card advantage)
b) I MUST combo out by (opponent’s) turn 6.
c) I MUST combo out earlier than turn 6 if I have at least 4 untapped lands.
d) I MUST Brain Freeze 18 times to win.

Failure to meet any of the above conditions results in a loss.

Just playing with those restrictions helped me understand the deck a lot. It taught me not to just topdeck to 4 lands… I had to aggressively hunt for those lands if I didn’t want to have to combo out with 3 lands on turn 6! It also taught me a lot about card interactions.

Here are some of the synergies I discovered.

Brainstorm & Impulse: One of the great things about Brainstorm is the ability to throw away dead cards (normally land). The problem is then that you have rubbish on top of your library. Follow up with Impulse to put those dead cards on the bottom of your library. This also makes Impulse safer; I hate pulling Reset, High Tide, Cunning Wish and Brain Freeze and then having to throw 3 away!

Brainstorm & Opt: Not quite as good as Impulse, Opt also helps clear the rubbish left by Brainstorm. Just make sure you put the card you do want on your library first; you want to look at your top card and then put it on the bottom, drawing the second card. This leaves your library clean. Simply drawing the first card leaves you with another dead card on the library.

Remand + another: In a pinch, when mana allows, countering your own spell acts as a cantrip. It has saved me more than once when I had loads of mana generation but no more draw cards.

Brain Freeze & Brain Freeze: As stupid as it sounds, I started off storming all the way up to 18 before Freezing. This taught me a great deal about storming, and I can now storm to 18 with 4 lands most of the time, but it is SO much easier to just storm to 9 and Freeze twice. I had probably run about 20 games before this occurred to me!

Now that my initial conditions are easily met, I add one or more of the following limitations to challenge myself:

a) I MUST defend my first Reset from a counter spell.
b) I MUST combo out by turn 5.
c) I MUST combo out as soon as I have 3 untapped lands (very tough).
d) I MUST finish my opponent off on the turn I combo out (so I need to follow up with Stroke of Genius).

I hope this was helpful rather than just blindingly obvious.

-Silent Requiem

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I'll add some more to what you've said:
- Brain Freeze + Remand = Tech
- Brainstorm + Flash of Insight = Flash of insight may act as a shuffle effect, like Impulse.
- Brainstorm + Brain Freeze = Shuffle effect. Just target yourself with a couple of copies of brain freeze and your opponent with the others, and you suddenly made your 2x brainstorm in hand like Ancestral Recalls.
- Brain Freeze + Flash of Insight = Brain freeze can be actually be used as a draw spell if you lack some. Target yourself with freeze until you mill a Flash of Insight, then (with other copies of Brain Freeze on stack), flashback Flash of Insight to take a meditate/cunning wish. Often you'll have a big enough graveyard to allow you to stack your entire deck as you please, ensuring your win. Remember that the original copy of Brain Freeze resolve last, so you can keep it on the stack until you find a remand to target it and play it on your opponent.
- Remand + Opponent's spell = this seems obvious, but many times you're going off with some opponent's spell on the stack (discard, counterbalance, etc), so in real games you probably just need to target your opponent's spell with remand instead of yours, making it more mana efficient as a cantrip.
- Turnabout = Stroke. This is not always true, but happens quite often. When facing lethal damage on the table, you can go off in the "beginning of combat" step, so your opponent can't cast other creatures and has not declared (tapped) attackers yet. This way you can win by milling your opponent and Turnabout opponent's creatures, without needing to stroke.
- Remand + Our spells: When the opponent counters a spell (usually tide), you have the option to just remand it and go off next turn. with less counters and the same number of cards in hand.

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

I'll add some more to what you've said:
- Brain Freeze + Remand = Tech
- Brainstorm + Flash of Insight = Flash of insight may act as a shuffle effect, like Impulse.
- Brainstorm + Brain Freeze = Shuffle effect. Just target yourself with a couple of copies of brain freeze and your opponent with the others, and you suddenly made your 2x brainstorm in hand like Ancestral Recalls.
- Brain Freeze + Flash of Insight = Brain freeze can be actually be used as a draw spell if you lack some. Target yourself with freeze until you mill a Flash of Insight, then (with other copies of Brain Freeze on stack), flashback Flash of Insight to take a meditate/cunning wish. Often you'll have a big enough graveyard to allow you to stack your entire deck as you please, ensuring your win. Remember that the original copy of Brain Freeze resolve last, so you can keep it on the stack until you find a remand to target it and play it on your opponent.
- Remand + Opponent's spell = this seems obvious, but many times you're going off with some opponent's spell on the stack (discard, counterbalance, etc), so in real games you probably just need to target your opponent's spell with remand instead of yours, making it more mana efficient as a cantrip.
- Turnabout = Stroke. This is not always true, but happens quite often. When facing lethal damage on the table, you can go off in the "beginning of combat" step, so your opponent can't cast other creatures and has not declared (tapped) attackers yet. This way you can win by milling your opponent and Turnabout opponent's creatures, without needing to stroke.
- Remand + Our spells: When the opponent counters a spell (usually tide), you have the option to just remand it and go off next turn. with less counters and the same number of cards in hand.

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Wow. Thank you for that.

That is going to take me a while to absorb. Some of it I don't even understand, which probably means that I need to become far more familiar with the stack rules. The trouble with having played since Revised is that you don't notice some of the subtle rule changes.

-Silent Requiem