Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil Credo
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Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil Credo
its just like keeping track of your opponent's life, if you're not keeping track of it, its your problem if their records show they have more than what you think they should have. Keep track of everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
I'd like to ban Goyf for a different reason than most. It's not broken or so good it needs to go. It's far from broken. It dies to most everything. It's not hard to counter with Spell Snare or CB. It's not untargetable or virtually unstoppable. It doesn't even have trample. A single Bitterblossom can keep it in check forever.
I want it out of the format because it outclasses every creature for it's cost and limits the format to choosing creatures that are within the same range and which there aren't any. Is this creature better than a Goyf? No? Guess we don't use it. That happens entirely too much on deck building.
How many decks is Goyf bad in? Not many. I even had them in a board for a Tendrils deck once. We had a joke about this. Stasis? Yup, Goyf makes Stasis better. That's just funny. How many times have you played against it compared to any other creature? It's easily the most played creature ever now. Kind of sad to think every deck out there is trying to find a way to put in green so it can play it.
I'd like to see a little more choices in deckbuilding than trying to beat out the green king. I'd like to play against something else.
While I do love my little green gaint, i do 100% agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahcmai
Also, I feel that banning top would be a bad move... Where, yes it is unfun to play agains it in CounterTop, it also makes other decks more reliable. I would hate the day where I need to remove them form my G/B/W Control Rock deck... :cry:
I couldn't agree more.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahcmai
Goyf isn't broken but it seriously warps the format.
I could've sworn I said this like a year ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahcmai
But it's still true. Goyf is boring.
Yep, couldn't agree more. I mean, I like wild mongrel, and other cool stuff to, but why play them over goyf other then budget reasons. It simply makes deckbuilding dumb...Quote:
Originally Posted by dahcmai
Example's:
We play a countershell, with cantrips, we need a ceap wincondition: Goyf
We need a backupplan for the combo: Goyf
Loam engine, play goyf, it'll also grow fast,
Mono green dumb creatue deck (okay no reason not to play it)
Hmmm mono red needs something for the lategame: Goyf you even get to play krosan grip.
Sui black needs a better beater, play goyf, you know, as big as negator but no drawback,...
(I can keep doing this all day long)
Pfff. I need a counterspell: Force of Will. It's just as boring, and nobody wants to ban FoW.
Goyf must be banned, teared into pieces and burned out from people's mind just for the absoulutely enormous number of dumb threads it created.
Wait, I thought it's Goyf Discussion thread! People, please stop beating your heads in the wall.
Oh, and I guess The Source needs a special thread. Something like "All Tarmogoyf Shittalk Thread".
But, you can't splash for Force of Will. You need at least another 12 blue cards, and then you're still low.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shabbaman
Goyf can go in every deck, without any other green cards, and probably make it better.
Agree, Force of Will isn't the same as Tarmogoyf, with out Force of Will we'd no longer have a turn 0 answer. A turn 0 answer is format defining, and it's what allows Storm combo to exist (fairly) and thus creates format diversity. Tarmogoyf doesn't really enable a deck, he just pushes every other non-utility 2 drop to the curb. Also, a diversity of creatures is way, way more important than a diversity of counters, you can only design around the cost efficiency of answers for so long until you reach your threshold (STP is case in point).Quote:
Originally Posted by hjalte
Unfortunately for this comparison, Force of Will doesn't obsolete or marginalize every other answer the way that Tarmogoyf obsoletes or marginalizes nearly every other threat. People still play Duress, Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, Wasteland, Sinkhole, Vindicate, Maelstrom Pulse, Chalice of the Void, Smokestack, Tangle Wire, Trinisphere, Maze of Ith, Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Lightning Helix, Ajani Vengeant, Pernicious Deed, Wrath of God, Damnation, Engineered Explosives, Umezawa's Jitte, etc., etc.., without going blue for Force of Will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shabbaman
While decks play other threats, in nearly every case that's after splashing green for Tarmogoyf and needing to supplement that threat.
If Goyf was Force, it would be heavily played as the best threat, but other decks would run entirely different threat suites to complement their strategy.
But everyone plays Goyf. And most decks that don't, should. It's a fantastic card. Heck, it's even an answer to that stupid Tarmogoyf card we all hate.
If Force of Will had been printed in Future Sight (and hadn't been printed in Alliances), it would have shocked the magic world as much or more than Tarmogoyf, and we might be having the same conversation, backward.Quote:
Unfortunately for this comparison, Force of Will doesn't obsolete or marginalize every other answer the way that Tarmogoyf obsoletes or marginalizes nearly every other threat.
Cards like Thwart, 4x Counterspell, 4x Duress, and Unmask would instantly get sidelined because they're no longer needed. And I have no doubt those would be played, if Force of Will didn't exist (although decks like Belcher would probably just dominate).
Force of Will obsoletes a LOT of answers, although it also probably single-handedly prevents the metagame from collapsing. Although it did come first, so I don't think "obsoletes" is the right word.
For a case study: I know a guy playing a UWB control deck (it doesn't suck) that does not run Force of Will. His deck runs cards like Wing Shards, Wrath of God, Vindicate, and a hand disruption suite of like Duress, Gerrard's Verdict.
Most of the answers that he runs I don't think see any play in Legacy, and most of that is because Force of Will is a lot more efficient.
Counterspell and Duress saw play when Force of Will was around. They've been sidelined by newer cards. Just like Troll Ascetic and Wild Mongrel and Exalted Angel sidelined older creatures when they were printed, and have been sidelined themselves since.
However, what has not happened is Counterbalance and Thoughtseize dominating every strategy that wants an answer. But this is exactly what Tarmogoyf has done to every strategy that wants a threat.
Talk of banning Goyf seems logical until you step back and remember: Legacy was pretty much not that fun until Goyf came along. Sure, some people loved the fascinating Thresh vs Landstill vs Goblins meta with a few other competitve decks in the mix, but now, for whatever reason, Legacy is this huge format that is fairly healthy and exciting. And it happened right about when Goyf entered the format.
It can be difficult to separate correlation and causation.Quote:
Originally Posted by walkerdog
Right now, I'd say The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is the most likely to get the axe. Banning cards for availability and price tag is not unprecedented - in case you haven't checked SCG is buying them for $200 a piece!
Before you get your panties bunched up - I'm not saying that I think it should be banned, just that it is the most bannable from WotC perspective, and solely for availability/price reasons. Also, I realize that buying 4x Tarmogoyf gets you pretty close to the value of a Tabernacle, and the Lhurgoyf is more heavily played - none of those points seem to do much for Illusionary Mask though.
Actually, at the moment, a playset of goyfs has surpassed the value of a single Tabernacle.Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshine
Kind of doubt it though since Tabernacle is not integral to playing the format.
By SCG prices, yes you would pay for a set of Goyfs - I was going by MOTL prices which has a Tabernacle at $218.29 and Goyf at $53.54 at the time of this writing, which does tip the land a little over a set of Lhurgoyfs. Nit picking aside, as it is not really relevant to my point, Tabernacle is the priciest individual card to actually see play in a Tier one deck in a long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by MMogg
I was going by ebay, actually. MOTL is often slow to update based on ebay as well, so you'll probably see this emerge on MOTL in a week or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshine
Yeah and as a 1 of in 1 deck I don't even see it on the ban radar.