Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vacrix
I think Land Grant needs to go. The deck already has problems with lands (at least in my experience it has been inconsistent in land drops, either too many or too few). Having lands that can be forced/dazed/spell snared/spell pierced doesn't look good to me. Bounty of the Hunt isn't good enough to justify the strategy IMO. I think Troll Ascetic looks good in the normal shell actually. Provided you can get Scryb Rangers out, you can hit 3 mana via play rangers with 2 forests, on the following turn, attack with rangers, 2nd mainphase tap forest, return forest, untap rangers, tap 2 forests hitting 3 mana.
I know Rangers generate mana, that's why I said they're in there to help cast Troll :tongue:
I don't actually like Land Grant either, I'm perfectly willing to consider something like a 16 land, 4 Ranger build with no Land Grant. It's probably what I'll end up doing to be safe, but I think it's best to start with testing Grant just to be sure that I don't want it, then to cut it later. However, I think you're underestimating Bounty quite a bit. It provides a way to dump horrific chaff spells like ESG or multiple Rangers, which you still really want to play because T1 Ranger or T2 Troll is amazing. It looks worse on paper than it tends to play ingame.
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What about Ohran Viper? I've been testing him in other decks and he has been tight! Your opponent usually doesn't want to block him so he can fill up your hand, can trade with goyfs, KoTR's, and has synergy with scryb rangers via your opponent is attacking, play scryb rangers in response, return a forest untapping Viper and blocking. If you have one in play, it can turn scryb rangers into a kill spell. I always liked seeing him in my testing with him (not in berserk stompy but in other decks). At the worst he eats an STP or trades with another creature, at best he draws you cards and/or discourages the opponent from attacking.
Thoughts?
Is he better than Cold-Eye Selkie, who's still pretty slow? He's far less evasive against the format and draws fewer cards, but killing Goyf is pretty sick. It's worth testing, but I suspect he's kind of on the slow side.
EDIT -- Bunch of rephrasing, hope you didn't start responding before I finished. Sorry!
Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
what do you guys think about the new card from worldwake "Leatherback Baloth"
here is a link to it: http://mtgsalvation.com/worldwake-spoiler.html
Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Too expensive to be playable, no evasion/protection.
Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Taken care of.
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The only place in legacy I saw it fitting was possibly in Berserk Stompy. Likely it will just recieve criticism as an overcosted goyf. I figured I would mention it anyway.
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I know Rangers generate mana, that's why I said they're in there to help cast Troll
I don't actually like Land Grant either, I'm perfectly willing to consider something like a 16 land, 4 Ranger build with no Land Grant. It's probably what I'll end up doing to be safe, but I think it's best to start with testing Grant just to be sure that I don't want it, then to cut it later. However, I think you're underestimating Bounty quite a bit. It provides a way to dump horrific chaff spells like ESG or multiple Rangers, which you still really want to play because T1 Ranger or T2 Troll is amazing. It looks worse on paper than it tends to play ingame.
MY BAD. Wow missed that the first time.
Well maybe run 4 quirion ranger and 15 forests instead so you hit 2 mana more often and then 3 mana for troll/ascetic/selkie. I think ranger is better than running llanowar elves or something just because you can avoid sinkhole, and give creatures viglance all without even tapping your dude while you already run a low amount of lands. Has it been tested? Ideally dudes like this that untap would be tight if you could take advantage of some tap abilities, but I can't think of any that are legit outside of a white splash for mother of runes. White gives you pridemage, teeg, swords, Mom, and not too much else.
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Is he better than Cold-Eye Selkie, who's still pretty slow? He's far less evasive against the format and draws fewer cards, but killing Goyf is pretty sick. It's worth testing, but I suspect he's kind of on the slow side.
Well Selkie can refill your hand if he gets there, but he needs a serious power boost to be effective (or have your opponent have islands). He becomes another target for fire//ice or mogg fanatic, when he comes down you can likely only protect him with invigorate due to mana issues. I think viper's minor plus side is he is harder to kill. He could find a place in the main board as like a 2-of. I like how he suits multiple situations. I'll test him on MWS and let you know how it goes in Berserk Stompy. I have been playing him in this to good effect:
Power Rangers
Land: (18)
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
3 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
Creatures: (30)
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Quirion Ranger
3 Scryb Ranger
4 Mother of Runes
3 Weathered Wayfarer
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Ohran Viper
3 Knight of the Reliquary
Spells: (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sensei's Diving Top
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
SB:
4 Trinisphere
4 Stasis
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Choke
2 Krosan Grip
1 Forsaken City
Obviously the deck is completely different, but Mom protects him well and makes him a house against aggro, drawing cards, and blocking on defense at the same time via rangers.
EDIT:
Again I will ask..
Has Scent of Ivy been tested? It looks good if you draw it early, and could be nice if you are building a hand for berserk.
Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vacrix
Again I will ask..
Has Scent of Ivy been tested? It looks good if you draw it early, and could be nice if you are building a hand for berserk.
Tested it once, usually works like krosa, mostly +3/+3, and doesn't help much when going to a more aggro strategy... I like having the aggro option as backup agains all sorts of control, so, I don't try it anymore, since it's not a good draw mid-range... but if you test it, please let us know.
Also, I think it should be played with VoV, Bogle and Silhana, since if goes far more Combo-ish.
Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
This is what I'm going to play this weekend (~20 players)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
6 Forest
7 Snow-covered Forest
2 Fetch
3 Scryb Ranger
4 Scryb Sprites
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Slippery Bogle
1 Treetop Scout
4 Berserk
2 Giant Growth
4 Invigorate
4 Might of old Krosa
4 Rancor
1 Seal of Strength
2 Vines of Vastwood
Sideboard:
2 Forest
2 Gaea's Blessing
4 Krosan Grip
3 Mindbreak Trap
4 Relic of Progenitus
Some additional words:
I think seven 2-drop creatures are okay - and I really like my Scouts!
I do possess only one Seal, otherwise I'd swap Giant Growths for them.
As you can see, I prefer evasion and/or troll-shroud over higher power - for a simple reason:
With one Berserk (which I take as an average case) a 2-power-creature (like Nettle Sentinel) deals exactly 2 more damage than a 1-power creature (say: Scryb Sprites). But Nettle will "only" have trample by that time so a 2-toughness-blocker (not exactly an uncommon encounter) completely negates that advantage. Sprites are much harder to block and therefore more likely to push through their whole damage, which makes up for the low power.
the sideboard:
I do expect a lot of mana denial, which is one reason I play only 2 fetches main and 2 additional forests in the side. I also expect some High Tide combo decks, so I thought Blessing to be a good idea.
The rest goes against the usual suspects: Grip for CounterTop and CotVs, trap for combo and Relic for Lhurgoyfs, Horrors and Loam shenanigans.
comments appreciated!
Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Has anyone tried Sheltering Ancient? I'm going to test running 3. The upkeep shouldn't be a problem since this guy is a great Berserk target.
Turn 1/2: Drop SA
Opp: Drop lackey/goyf/lord
Turn 2/3: Give their dude +1/+1. Cast Might of Krosa + Berserk, attack with an 18/9 trampler.
If you had 2 pumps + Berserk or 1 pump + 2 Berserks you'd win right there. Acts as Kavu Predator 5-7 (if you're going that route).
Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AcidFiend
Turn 1/2: Drop SA
Opp: Drop lackey/goyf/lord
Turn 2/3: Give their dude +1/+1. Cast Might of Krosa + Berserk, attack with an 18/9 trampler.
There is a problem: opp will read the card and won't cast a creature...
Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
If the opponent controls no creatures, then cumulative upkeep can't be paid, and then sheltering ancient dies.
Even if they do have one creature, they can chump and you better hope you kill them with trample or your ancient is going to die next turn.
He is absolutely unplayable in any format.
Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eq.firemind
There is a problem: opp will read the card and won't cast a creature...
Ok bad example - you obviously wouldn't play him turn 1 on-the-play. On the draw, a lot of decks have turn 1 creatures: goblins, merfolk, bant, zoo etc. By turn 2 even more so.
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Originally Posted by
FoulQ
If the opponent controls no creatures, then cumulative upkeep can't be paid, and then sheltering ancient dies.
Even if they do have one creature, they can chump and you better hope you kill them with trample or your ancient is going to die next turn.
He is absolutely unplayable in any format.
Chumping is actually the better outcome here. It offsets his drawback, and if you kill their dude plus a bunch of trample damage, I don't see how thats a bad thing. A deck like Burn would love to spend 2 cards for 6 opponent damage & a creature of theirs.
Anyways it was just an idea - I'll test it out of curiosity anyways. I was looking for creatures to replace Skyshroud Elite. Its been a staple for years in this deck but I'm just underwhelmed with it. As a vanilla 2/3 I feel he's the worst dude we're running.
Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
While I'm skeptical about Ancient, I'm also very supportive of any effort to find more usable creatures. I'm currently trying my Troll Ascetic version since he's actually a very Berserkable creature that doesn't suck on his own. I mean really, our current creature base is fucking terrible. Kavu Predator is absolute shit, Tarmogoyf is too small in this deck, Boggle/Sprite/Ranger/Ledgewalker are all 1-power creatures for 1-2 mana when we're playing beatdown, Nettle and Elite fight it out for whether 2/2 vigilance is better than conditional 2/3 (spoiler: both suck). Really just about the only creature in the deck that's seriously awesome is Pit-Skulk. Any chance at finding better ones is important to take.
Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Otter
While I'm skeptical about Ancient, I'm also very supportive of any effort to find more usable creatures. I'm currently trying my Troll Ascetic version since he's actually a very Berserkable creature that doesn't suck on his own. I mean really, our current creature base is fucking terrible. Kavu Predator is absolute shit, Tarmogoyf is too small in this deck, Boggle/Sprite/Ranger/Ledgewalker are all 1-power creatures for 1-2 mana when we're playing beatdown, Nettle and Elite fight it out for whether 2/2 vigilance is better than conditional 2/3 (spoiler: both suck). Really just about the only creature in the deck that's seriously awesome is Pit-Skulk. Any chance at finding better ones is important to take.
Hmmm... interesting opinion...
I don't think so, though...Those creatures you mentioned there are the same terrible creatures that has been winning me games since I started playing this thing...
Of course I support searching for new creatures... For example, I used to run Silhana and Skarrgan before I first saw that CHaPuZaS list, and by that time, they were recent...
About the Ancient, I think it's drawback is even worse than Talara's battalion, for example... I remember when I T16 running Battalion + Morphosis on a Berserkless deck (I had my reasons to play berserkless), and it worked wonders.
Ancient is killable in many ways. And the most common of it would be a Sword to plowshares right after a pump, and then you not even lost a creature, but also gave a possible goyf some extra power... Hard to accept, but it's like the most common set of cards played in hole legacy. We can't always count on Vines of Vastwood + Invigorate + Berserk for a turn 3 kill... Turn 3 kill is what our deck do best with Silhanas, bogles, 1cc creatures, kavus.... Besides all that, you can't cast it without a opposing creature to support him. I'm not sure either if you can put a +1/+1 counter @ goose, but if not, that's also another con.
I like the idea of running troll, but it slows our clock to a 4th-ish turn combo with it... It's something to be considered before adding 4-of any 3cc creature. Also, each creature with cmc higher than 2 isn't useful by the time we can still rush our opponent while they are looking for resources. I don't like the idea of having a single creature in my opening hand, but if it's a bogle, and inf+1 pumps, I seriously always play.
EDIT: Just to let people know that I tested ancient already xD
Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gui_Brasil
Tested it once, usually works like krosa, mostly +3/+3, and doesn't help much when going to a more aggro strategy... I like having the aggro option as backup agains all sorts of control, so, I don't try it anymore, since it's not a good draw mid-range... but if you test it, please let us know.
Also, I think it should be played with VoV, Bogle and Silhana, since if goes far more Combo-ish.
And what about Martyr of Spores? The same, but on the foot = more flexible.
Very similar deck can be built in monored:
16 Mountain
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Mogg Raider
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Stream Hopper
4 Boros Recruit
4 Dwarven Berserker
4 Inner-Flame Acolyte
4 Reckless Charge
4 Brute Force
4 Double Cleave
4 Bonesplitter
(See, it is all-common.)
And monoblack version:
16 Swamp
4 Crystal Vein
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sarcomancy
4 Carnophage
4 Beckon Apparition
4 Inkfathom Infiltrator
4 Dauthi Horror
4 Hatred
4 Unholy Strength
4 Bonesplitter
4 Cabal Therapy
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While I'm skeptical about Ancient, I'm also very supportive of any effort to find more usable creatures. I'm currently trying my Troll Ascetic version since he's actually a very Berserkable creature that doesn't suck on his own. I mean really, our current creature base is fucking terrible. Kavu Predator is absolute shit, Tarmogoyf is too small in this deck, Boggle/Sprite/Ranger/Ledgewalker are all 1-power creatures for 1-2 mana when we're playing beatdown, Nettle and Elite fight it out for whether 2/2 vigilance is better than conditional 2/3 (spoiler: both suck). Really just about the only creature in the deck that's seriously awesome is Pit-Skulk. Any chance at finding better ones is important to take.
That is the influence of Tarmogoyf working in UGx post-threshold decks: all other weenie creatures look like shit. For 1 mana you can get 1/1 with little ability, 1/2 vanilla, 2/x with little disadvantage or very situational 3/x (Rogue Elephant). For 2 mana, 2/x vanilla or with little ability (depending on toughtness) is normal, not terrible. Nettle is extremely powerful for its cost measures and Scryb Sprites is OK. Troll is OK, but it costs 3, so you need something to speed it up and make your manabase more consistent, less vulnerable to manascrew, e.g. Llanowar Elf or Wild Growth. Going this way you will end up with Big Bad Aggro deck running big creatures, which is nice on paper and fun to play, but rather unplayable in general meta.
OK, so here are some ideas:
cc1
Llanowar Elf - can take place if you wanna include manacost 3 and higher
Stampede Driver - cool abitity against bad topdeck draws, synergy with Quirion/Scryb Ranger
Martyr of Spores - Scent of Ivy on the foot, situational hoser of Bridges
Llanowar Augur - free pump for Berserk turn
Treefolk Harbinger - solid blocker and mana fixer, can make 1 Sheltering Ancient playable
Hidden Gibbons - 4/4 body in almost every meta
Hidden Herd - 3/3, very similar as above
Hidden Predators - SB option vs Goyf
Vitality Charm - flexible spell
Chatter of the Squirrel - 2 creatures in 1 card, backup vs Wrath
Tukatongue Thallid - backup vs Wrath, stops Lackey
cc2
Wild Mongrel
Werebear
Spectral Bears
Thornweald Archer
Elvish Archers
Wolf-Skull Shaman
Albino Troll
Vinelasher Kudzu
Viridian Zealot
Whirling Dervish
Talara's Battalion
Boreal Centaur
Safehold Elite
Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Have to say that I liked that Martyr of Spores one. And that's just because it's a lot flexible... It's a 1/1, which is not "wow", but it's not "damn, 0 power", can be berserked the same as a bogle if you got VoV or if opponent got no removal, and if you lack pumping, he's a call... also good with tarmogoyf, and like a secondary seal. Gonna try that one...
All the cards you suggested are good options depending on what you want... just comented Martys because I liked it at least to give a try, and think it may be a good subject for further discussion...
Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
I have no issue with trying out new things, but my issue with Martyr is... how often do you find yourself with 4+ green cards in hand when you have your pump target and ready to go off? At the rate the builds burn through cards in hand, it seems more like a double-cost Giant Growth. Flexibility, yes, but same issue as Scent of Ivy. The only real advantage I see to Martyr other than being a vanilla 1/1 in addition to a giant growth level pump is hating on Bridge from Below maindeck. Seal takes nothing to activate and sits, giving you the flexibility on turn 2 to drop another 1-drop or a 2-drop on turn 3 in addition. Martyr forces you to keep mana up if you want it as backup. It also makes you play suboptimally when you do need to all-out rush. It's like K-Mart, trapped in the middle without a particular specialty.
Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dilettante
I have no issue with trying out new things, but my issue with Martyr is... how often do you find yourself with 4+ green cards in hand when you have your pump target and ready to go off? At the rate the builds burn through cards in hand, it seems more like a double-cost Giant Growth. Flexibility, yes, but same issue as Scent of Ivy. The only real advantage I see to Martyr other than being a vanilla 1/1 in addition to a giant growth level pump is hating on Bridge from Below maindeck. Seal takes nothing to activate and sits, giving you the flexibility on turn 2 to drop another 1-drop or a 2-drop on turn 3 in addition. Martyr forces you to keep mana up if you want it as backup. It also makes you play suboptimally when you do need to all-out rush. It's like K-Mart, trapped in the middle without a particular specialty.
Was considering that myself... I was actually doing some calcs on it... you will usually have 1, 2 or 3 lands in hand, and that means 4~6 green cards in hand first turn. Considering you need an extra card, which is the creature, but you usually combo turn 2~3, you will draw 2~3 cards, and also discarding the casted spell/creature, which means 4~6 (6 would be wtf) green cards in hand if you try the combo with the first creature played. In the best case scenario, you got both a bogle/silhana/VoV+creature, and a berserk. In the worst case, your hand will be far more inclined to aggro beatdown-ing. In the first case, perfect, as long as noone counter your berserk, I guess... In the second, 1/1 vanilla sux, but it may be kept as a resource against blocking, and it increases goyfs if you use then...
Well, very theorical, nothing pratical... will have to test it.
Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gui_Brasil
Was considering that myself... I was actually doing some calcs on it... you will usually have 1, 2 or 3 lands in hand, and that means 4~6 green cards in hand first turn. Considering you need an extra card, which is the creature, but you usually combo turn 2~3, you will draw 2~3 cards, and also discarding the casted spell/creature, which means 4~6 (6 would be wtf) green cards in hand if you try the combo with the first creature played. In the best case scenario, you got both a bogle/silhana/VoV+creature, and a berserk. In the worst case, your hand will be far more inclined to aggro beatdown-ing. In the first case, perfect, as long as noone counter your berserk, I guess... In the second, 1/1 vanilla sux, but it may be kept as a resource against blocking, and it increases goyfs if you use then...
Well, very theorical, nothing pratical... will have to test it.
I run an 18-land variant (not much changed from when Kapuzlas posted) and find myself with generally 2-4 land through the whole game. If on play, Turn 1, down to 5 cards. Turn 2, if you play just a 2-drop, down to 4 cards. Turn 3, in theory 'go time', 5 cards, with 1 land... and that's if you RELY on your turn 2 play not getting removed. If on the draw, it looks a little better. But in either case, the Martyr prevents you from wanting to blindly go the all-aggro early route. I see the combo route as a 'fallback' or 'helpful' for when you can't just pound through, since there are only 4 Berserks in the deck. And all it takes is 1 counter to screw you if you rely on it. I could be a little too risk-adverse, but... everyone has their own style :)
Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dilettante
I run an 18-land variant (not much changed from when Kapuzlas posted) and find myself with generally 2-4 land through the whole game. If on play, Turn 1, down to 5 cards. Turn 2, if you play just a 2-drop, down to 4 cards. Turn 3, in theory 'go time', 5 cards, with 1 land... and that's if you RELY on your turn 2 play not getting removed. If on the draw, it looks a little better. But in either case, the Martyr prevents you from wanting to blindly go the all-aggro early route. I see the combo route as a 'fallback' or 'helpful' for when you can't just pound through, since there are only 4 Berserks in the deck. And all it takes is 1 counter to screw you if you rely on it. I could be a little too risk-adverse, but... everyone has their own style :)
Yeah yeah, I completly agree with you on that point... combo should be seen as an option, really... but I like trying the both variants, the more aggroish and the comboish... As I said, when it comes to a more aggro hand (even in the variant that runs more pumps), I need further testing to see how helpful would that be a 1/1 with a sacrifice-pump ability... that's why I need to test... But your point is totally clear and reasonable. ^_^
Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gui_Brasil
Hmmm... interesting opinion...
I don't think so, though...Those creatures you mentioned there are the same terrible creatures that has been winning me games since I started playing this thing...
I'm not saying the deck doesn't work decently as it is because the creatures do have synergy with Berserk and I'm not saying I have better options than our current creatures, but the creatures are still awful. I notice it every time I get one of those games where I draw 1-2 pump spells and the rest creatures and lands. Try to beat Zoo or Goblins with a draw like that, it's embarrassingly difficult. Since we're in monogreen and can't fix our draws, I'd really like to have the worse draws be a bit more competitive than they currently are.
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I like the idea of running troll, but it slows our clock to a 4th-ish turn combo with it... It's something to be considered before adding 4-of any 3cc creature. Also, each creature with cmc higher than 2 isn't useful by the time we can still rush our opponent while they are looking for resources. I don't like the idea of having a single creature in my opening hand, but if it's a bogle, and inf+1 pumps, I seriously always play.
This doesn't really make much sense. If you have the cards to combo out earlier, you can use it on a different creature and still kill them earlier. Troll is one of the best cards you could want if the game drags out a little bit and realistically, most games with this deck don't end before turn three. Granted, I haven't gotten a chance to test it as much as I'd like, but I really like not running Kavu Predator. Maybe the rest of you draw the Invigorate combo more than I do, but I end up using the Predators as terrible 1G 2/2 tramples a lot more than I would like. Also, t2 Troll off of ESG is insane.
Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
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This doesn't really make much sense. If you have the cards to combo out earlier, you can use it on a different creature and still kill them earlier. Troll is one of the best cards you could want if the game drags out a little bit and realistically, most games with this deck don't end before turn three. Granted, I haven't gotten a chance to test it as much as I'd like, but I really like not running Kavu Predator. Maybe the rest of you draw the Invigorate combo more than I do, but I end up using the Predators as terrible 1G 2/2 tramples a lot more than I would like. Also, t2 Troll off of ESG is insane.
It's wierd, because I like kavu predator a lot, even more than it's common maybe... I like it a lot when my opponent has any sort of life-gain, like it ok when they get something to chump-block me and I play some growth over him, and I everytime that invigorate comes, it owns the game. Not that it's common, but statistically speaking, it's not hard. you have like 20% chance of having it in the start hand, and like 40% of having it by turn 3... And it's quite unusual to find a 2/2 2cc creature with 2 abilities....
