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Well, once again, I don't say PunFire is strictly better than Lavamancer, I just commented on your saying that Lavamancer is strictly better than Punfire which is not true to me (according to my experience). I'm not going to argue over this as we both have based our views on our experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonius
Perhaps it's worth to notice that currently I play non-mox loam version which actually looks more like Zoo Loam.
G/W/R by Sylvain Lauriol
Maindeck:
Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
1 Scroll Rack
Creatures
1 Eternal Witness
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Lotus Cobra
3 Tarmogoyf
Instants
3 Punishing Fire
Sorceries
4 Burning Wish
1 Devastating Dreams
3 Life from the Loam
2 Vindicate
Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
Lands
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bayou
1 Forgotten Cave
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Maze of Ith
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Taiga
4 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
Legendary Lands
1 Karakas
Sideboard:
2 Null Rod
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Dawnglow Infusion
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Firespout
1 Hull Breach
1 Life from the Loam
1 Morningtide
1 Shattering Spree
This is a list recommended by our dear World Champion. He claims to play a bit of Legacy in France, I don't know if anyone can testify to this, but the list sure looks interesting, although I'm sure Antonius will hate it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lorddotm
interesting list! Hopefully somebody tries it out.
just one thing i notice, is scroll rack enough card draw?
He has cycling lands as well. Scroll Rack is quite good with an active Loam or Countryside Crusher, but since he doesn't run Crusher, one Rack is probably correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by blue_mage
Anyone tried a list without red? I know it's not "Aggro Loam" without crusher or seismic assault, but both those cards have let me down recently. Seismic assault has been underwhelming for ages now, as everyone has noticed. Crusher is still fantastic, provided he lives a turn. However being in bolt range the turn he comes down (assuming you dont have any cycle lands etc), is kind of a turn off. He doesn't clog the ground up when he lands, which is not a big + against zoo and folk. I'm playing a GWB list now:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Religuary
3 Terravore
4 STP
4 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate
4 Life from the loam
4 Mox Diamond
1 Maze of Ith
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
2 Savanna
2 Secluded Steppe
4 Tranquil Thicket
3 Bayou
4 Heath
3 Verdant
4 Wasteland
You still maintain a high density of bigs with terravore (unchumpable, lovely) and KOTR (superman on a stick), while black and white give you STP and Thoughtseize. Vindicate has been amazing here, doing so many things. Thoughts?
So, it's literally Dark Horizons. Not this ambiguous name given to Rock by SCG, but literally New Horizons minus blue, and more land interactions.
I really like this, and I've tried something similar with Rock but with a less Loam-y feel. The thing about Seismic Assault and Crusher is that they're VERY good in this deck. True that 2 damage off of Assault isn't exemplary, but when you're going 6-10 damage a turn with it, you're either clearing the board or burning face. Once Loam is active with Assault, you have a machine gun against creatures. Even Merfolk can be relentlessly gunned down (usually over 2 Turns, one turn to take out their Lords, next turn to clean up), and Zoo dies horribly.
Crusher is in bolt range, but so are so many other creatures. Confidant, small Goyfs, Terravore (early on), etc. The only thing is Crusher doesn't die to Gravehate as much, and gets chumped like KotR does. Not sure if you could run a combination of Red and White.
Losing Chalice hurts because it's your main defense against 1-drops from Zoo, Combo, etc. Even though you gain Swords and Thoughtseize, you lose an edge against opposing removal and continuous streams of 1-drops from other decks.
Not sure which direction is right, but just trying to weigh the pros and cons of each side.
-Matt
Dark Horizons is similar, but I don't think it fully capitalizes on the moxes and the loam-interactions. It's leaning more towards a more discard heavy approach. Aggro loam seems to be underplayed right now. How is it's position in the current meta? I'm not really an active aggro loam player. I have the cards and sling them from time to time, but I'd like to hear from someone who is very familiar with this deck.
I'm saying this literally would be Dark Horizons: because of the colour combo and the use of Terravore. It's be like New Horizons, minus blue add black :)
I play Aggro Loam quite often, but stopped playing it when Survival came around. We weren't quick enough. But, with Tribal coming back, I think Aggro Loam is in a good position. With access to Firespouts, discard, Plagues, and all the other fun stuff, we should be well positioned. I'm no expert on this deck though, someone else have something to say?
-Matt
I just played in a 70+ players tourney. had atleast a 4-2-1 standing. I think aggro loam will be in a good position with a right meta and with a lot of playtest! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Most of top 8 players were composed of combo players I was expecting lots of aggro decks but lost to merfolks, and TEPS!
By the way I'm looking for a list I'm interested in testing.
Assault is not really good in this deck. It's a weak card that imposes severe mana restrictions and is strictly a late-game card in a deck already full of them. Furthermore, it increases your dependency on Life from the Loam, which makes the deck easier to hate. You'd be better off running Valakut.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
The biggest issue with losing red is losing access to Firespout. In a format as aggro as this one, where three of the best decks are Merfolk, Goblins, and Zoo, not having access to a sweeper is likely to be crippling. This deck is already too clunky to beat Merfolk reliably, and cards like Chalice don't help against aggro decks.
Valakut is in no way shape or form better then Assault. Assault wins games very easily and crushes tribal decks. Red is an important part of Aggro Loam. If you want to talk about some deck like Dark horizons, do it in that thread. Aggro Loam uses red.
Also, Chalice at one shuts off all of zoos removal and a third to half of their creatures. Merfolk is a tough match for sure though.
Zoo maindecks Pridemage and will have access to further artifact/enchantment removal in the sideboard.
If when you say, "crushes tribal," you mean, "is several turns behind tribal's best draws and is a turn behind its average draw," then yes, Assault crushes tribal. In reality, triple red is a real issue against land denial from Goblins, Merfolk can largely ignore or delay Assault, and losing Life from the Loam makes Assault a joke. I would rather have Firespout.
Really, this deck is bad enough now that treating cards like Assault and Chalice as sacred, uncuttable cows seems like a bad idea. If you don't open Mox Diamond, you're basically doubling your chances of losing against any deck faster than you are (i.e., most of them). You don't beat combo, you rarely beat one of the most popular tribal decks, you kind of beat some of the Counterbalance decks, and there are better, more well-rounded decks with which to slay Zoo. This deck really needs to be re-evaluated in the sort of way ivanpei was willing to do. Aggro Loam isn't "a deck that uses red," it's a midrange deck built on synergies and redundancy that happens to use Life from the Loam. If swapping red for black while maintaining the deck's core strategy makes it better, then that's a good thing. Arguing about names doesn't make current builds of the deck any less Tier 2.5.
all you guys with doubts about this archetype need to just play my build. Been crushing it, four or five tournaments in a row in Socal, where the Metagame is positively festering with Merfolks and Vial aggro decks. Lightning Bolt and Lavamancer.
Antonius, is your build from the last page still your actual build?
just switch nature's claim for the needle main then the 3 needle in board for 2 Pyroblast and a Grip and that's my current build.
I just went 4-0-1 (out of 25ish people) in my local tournament with Aggro Loam. It has been a while since I have played this deck but I feel it is greatly primed for the current metagame. The list is VERY solid against a large portion of the field and beats basically anything that isn't combo or Dredge, just like the classic lists did in their prime. Here is the list followed by a very short report of what happened:
4x Burning Wish
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Crusher
4x Mox Diamond
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Loam
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Grim Lavamancer (MVP ALL DAY LONG)
2x Seismic Assault (still the second best card in the deck)
2x Jitte
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Basilisk Collar
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Arid Mesa
4x Wasteland
3x Forgotten Cave
3x Taiga
2x Tranquil Thicket
2x Plateau
1x Savannah
1x Barbarian Ring
1x Forest
1x Mountain
Sideboard
3x Krosan Grip
2x Firespout
2x Vexing Shusher
1x Kitchen Finks
Wish Targets
1x Devastating Dreams
1x Worm Harvest
1x Loam
1x Firespout
1x Hull Breach
1x Regrowth
1x Wing Snare (don't laugh ... it won me a game and is the nuts VS Reanimator forcing them to call white w Iona since StP is in the main)
Round 1 - BYE - FAIL!!!! I was wanting to play this deck so bad and I get a damn bye ... wtf
Round 2 - Mono W Aggro w Equipments
g1 - He gets land screwed and I smash him in the face.
g2 - I keep a hand with all 2 drops and 2x StP and never draw my second land ... I play 26 ... wtf!
g3 - Krosan Grips take care of his equipment and Grim Lavamancer kills basically every creature he has. Wing Snare made an appearance and saved my ass at 6 life; Seismic Assault easily outraces his Silver Knight.
Round 3 - Mid-range G/B/r Red Death w shit tons of removal
g1 - Assault + Loam kills all his threats and him.
g2 - This one goes LOOONG. He Duresses first turn and doesn't take Seismic Assault. Swords and Loam get Extirpated and Lavamancer makes an even trade with my Goyf and his Tombstalker. Late game he is at 8 and I have Seismic Assault in play and I keep drawing lands and getting beat with another Tombstalker .... Barbarian Ring finishes him off when I draw the 3rd land in a row.
Round 4 - Countertop Thopter - ID - Had we played I would have smashed him.
Round 5 - Glimpse Elves
g1 - Turn 1 Lavamancer kills all his relevant threats and I have 2x Goyfs + Crusher in play.
g2 - I DD on turn 2 and he recovers!!! He attempts to combo off but can't find the second Summoner's Pact. Crusher + Jitte and Seismic Assault with Loam in the yard on my next turn makes him scoop.
Then we split in the top 4.
Overall the deck was savagely good. This is kind of a strange cross between Zoo and Loam ... in the end it is a very much AGGRO LOAM!!! There is a lot of work to be done to the deck as I am really not very satisfied with the list. I want to play Knight but at the same time, I would almost rather have Pridemage due to the versatility. I would certainly never run 4x Knight due to the cc as this deck is designed to fuck everything in the format aside from Dredge (which is on a complete downswing due to the hate and consistency) and combo which is an auto-loss.
Grim Lavamancer is the absolute nuts in this deck. I realize he is graveyard dependant but ... he is soooo good in the early game that he easily buys time to make it to mid which is where this deck completely flourishes. I realize there are some strange card choices and Basilisk Collar is the lone standout. Truth is I never drew it but I abolutely love the synergy this card has with the weaker creatures in the deck; mainly Pridemage, Finks, and Lavamancer (machie gunner muthafucka)!!! The lack of DD is apparent and I did this for a reason. I wanted to build a deck that is good against all aggro decks and CB based decks. DD seals games but is largely reliant in the graveyard, as is Knight. This is a very aggressive Loam deck that genuinely does not give a shit about the graveyard. If your opponent starts the game with a black leyline in play .. it really doesn't matter that much. Because u divert towards an awkward version of Zoo. SA and Loam are graveyard dependent, and the option to abuse either is there, but u are not focused on the graveyard to win games, its that simple. I feel this versio of the deck is ridiculously strong since it has most of the benefits of traditional Aggro Loam with few of the weaknesses.
Combo and Dredge are still a near auto-loss. And I am totally fine with that. Loam never had a good matchup against either and I simply choose to avoid those since neither is very prominent in my meta. Dedicating SB slots to them would be near insulting so I chose to make every other matchup better. Chalice would help, no doubt, but even with Chalice it can still be Duressed and any combo player with a bit of sense is gonna beat Loam. I never once dropped a tournament match to this deck when was playing something that wasn't Belcher. And even then, my buddy tonight was playing Loam w 4x Chalice main and almost lost to Belcher, going 2-1 to pure luck. Combo is not a matchup this deck can handle. Perhaps running a single Extract or Cranial Extraction in the board would help win the combo match but ... its still so bad I don't even worry about it. The fact that you have an advantage over probably 75% of the field is way good enough for me.
Now I am not advocating that people sleeve this list up. I have tested it and and really works in my meta. Yours may be different. But the way I see it, Chalice really sucks against a lot of the meta right now, especially against Merfolk and Goblins. Unless it hits turn 1 ..... it sucks. And late game when you draw it, how dead of a card is it? Best case scenario you drop it @ 2 and turn a good portion of your deck off. Maybe it belongs in the side. And Knight of the Reliquary, I really like the card, its really the fucking nuts, but I am not going to alter my manabase playing a bunch of lands that don't add mana or put some shit in the SB taking up very valuable slots just for the sake of playing him. I have played against it numerous times and know how good it is, but I much prefer a stable manabase w Mox Diamonds. Knight feels like more of a cute Parlor trick that my opponent easily deals with more than a threat. In this list Finks could easily be replaced by Knight. But still, maybe its just the meta I play in, but I absolutely love Pridemage. He deals with problem artifacts and breaks Goyf standstills which is key against Zoo.
I certainly agree this list needs some tweaking, but as it is right now, this deck is a fucking house! Honestly Basilisk Collar and Finks I think are the only real questionable slots. Based on these results and this analysis, what would you change and why? I think optimally it would be + 2 Knight and +1 Lavamancer and I would keep the board the same. Thoughts?
Cool list. Comments: unless you are hard up for life gain and then I would honestly look to a washable sb slot to fit the bill I agree with you cutting finks.
Collar can be good or bad. It's not conventional but that doesn't make it wrong.
KotR is incredible. I was shocked he already wasn't in your list. He is a massive beater that doesn't flat out die to relic of progenitus and runs on the theme of the deck. Cute parlor tricks aside think of him as 4 more tarmogoyfs that more likely dodges cb and is immune to spellsnare!
QP is awesome. No justification required in my book.
I face a lot of control with sweepers so I am more inclined to punishing fire but lavamang is definitely my choice in an unknown or maybe even in mine.
I love Aggro Loam and I'm trying a new build, but I'm weighing costs vs benefits of a few things:
Red is great because you get Burning Wish, Seismic Assault, and Countryside Crusher. But, I'm more interested in the first two.
White gives you Swords and Knight of the Reliquary.
Black gives you Dark Confidant + boardpieces.
I'm wondering if I should drop Red, losing access to Firespout; Drop White, losing Swords, Knight, and possible sideboard slots; Drop Black, losing Dark Confidant, Pulse, Leyline/Extirpates/Plagues.
Ideally, I'd love to run four-colour, with the black Splash being very light for Dark Confidant and Plagues. I want to keep Red for Burning Wish and Assault, even if it costs RRR. I understand it's a bit slow, but it's another way to clear the path of creatures, Planeswalkers, and also just deal damage to the face if I can't get through with creatures.
I've dropped Chalices, as I've found they were never really good enough against combo as I had no discard, counters, etc. to go along with it.
I was thinking a list something along the lines of:
3x Burning Wish
2x Seismic Assault
3x Life from the Loam
4x Mox Diamond
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Firespout
2x Engineered Explosives
19
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Terravore
13
7x Fetchlands
6x Cycling Lands
4x Wasteland
1x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Volrath's Stronghold/Tabernacle
6-7 Duals
27
Board:
1x Devastating Dreams
1x Life from the Loam
1x Worm Harvest
1x Firespout
1x Hull Breach
2x Wish Slots
3x Engineered Plague
2/3 Gravehate (Extirpate etc.)
3/2 Other
The only problem running 4 colours is mana screw, but black is splashed so lightly and with Mox Diamond, it may NOT be a problem, but I still have yet it test.
-Matt
I played 4 color a while ago and hated it. When running 5-6 cycle lands, 4-6 colorless lands, and 2-4 lands that only add 1 color it really sucks. If you want to play the black splash, run 1 Bayou/Badlands and just play Stronghold in the main or something like that. The key to this deck is a solid manabase and playing 4 colors is really just terrible. The advantages are obvious but it greatly dilutes consistency and losing games to mana problems is not acceptable in a deck that runs 26 + 4 Mox. Just try and stick w a RGw or RGb build as these are generally the most solid. Back when Loam was ridiculously good, the most successful lists were either RG or RGb. The white splash was never that strong till Knight came along and then everyone started realizing how good StP is in the deck. Chalice used to be amazing, but in my meta it is largely useless and a terrible topdeck in the mid-late game so I don't run it anymore. Pick 2-3 colors and stick with them, the benefits of playing 4 color are not enough to justify the manabase issues you will have.
@jazzykat: TY for the comments. I have been testing a new list with + 2x Knight, +2 Punishing Fire, +1 Path to Exhile and -2 Finks, -1 Collar, -2 Jitte and it feels really solid. While slow, punishing fire is REALLY good, especially in Goyfstills. It kills every relevant Goblin and Merfolk. Late game it feels like a shoddy Seismic Assault but when you have a recurring damage source lategame ... when is that bad? The manabase didn't take a hit as I just added 3x Grove to it and haven't had any problems. What I really like about playing this tiny combo is that the pieces don't suck on their own. Fire owns early on in the game acting like additional StPs in early turns and can return to your hand after you StP something. And Grove is just another Taiga that generally gives your opponent pointless lifepoints. I just really like this tiny combo since you basically are getting something for nothing and when you are stuck drawing shit and your opponent is drawing threats, you are never really down and out. Thoughts?
Do you think it to be more advantageous running Knight/Swords or Bob? Both are good, but for their own reasons. I guess I could ways run Ghastly in place of Swords, and Crusher in place of Knight, but since you're not running Black, do you find yourself missing Bob's card draw?
-Matt