[Deck] CounterTop Thopter

Quick question: what are people's thoughts on Humility versus Moat?

I ask because I own Humilities but can't really afford to buy Moats. I realize that Moat is better under Counterbalance because then the opponent can't force through Pridemage, which makes the "ability removal" aspect of Humility less important. However, I appreciate Humility's ability to deal with random utility creatures and fliers, and making guys into 1/1s slows down a lot of decks. Zoo's clock is a lot less impressive when it only has three or four 1/1 dorks in play, and it also seems better against decks like Merfolk or Goblins in games 2 and 3 when you'd expect them to have some way to get rid of it (although Moat seems much better g1 against both of those). Humility also turns Firespout into a true Wrath, although I'm not sure how much that matters.

Basically, it seems that Humility vs. Moat boils down to, "Am I looking for a continuous Fog to keep myself alive until I set up Foundry, or am I looking for a way to stop troublesome utility creatures?" Put that way, it seems entirely meta-dependent, but I was wondering if one was generally better than the other.

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

Quick question: what are people's thoughts on Humility versus Moat?

I ask because I own Humilities but can't really afford to buy Moats. I realize that Moat is better under Counterbalance because then the opponent can't force through Pridemage, which makes the "ability removal" aspect of Humility less important. However, I appreciate Humility's ability to deal with random utility creatures and fliers, and making guys into 1/1s slows down a lot of decks. Zoo's clock is a lot less impressive when it only has three or four 1/1 dorks in play, and it also seems better against decks like Merfolk or Goblins in games 2 and 3 when you'd expect them to have some way to get rid of it (although Moat seems much better g1 against both of those). Humility also turns Firespout into a true Wrath, although I'm not sure how much that matters.

Basically, it seems that Humility vs. Moat boils down to, "Am I looking for a continuous Fog to keep myself alive until I set up Foundry, or am I looking for a way to stop troublesome utility creatures?" Put that way, it seems entirely meta-dependent, but I was wondering if one was generally better than the other.

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Probably humility to ensure that you slow down zoos clock while also stopping their pridemages.

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

Quick question: what are people's thoughts on Humility versus Moat?

I ask because I own Humilities but can't really afford to buy Moats. I realize that Moat is better under Counterbalance because then the opponent can't force through Pridemage, which makes the "ability removal" aspect of Humility less important. However, I appreciate Humility's ability to deal with random utility creatures and fliers, and making guys into 1/1s slows down a lot of decks. Zoo's clock is a lot less impressive when it only has three or four 1/1 dorks in play, and it also seems better against decks like Merfolk or Goblins in games 2 and 3 when you'd expect them to have some way to get rid of it (although Moat seems much better g1 against both of those). Humility also turns Firespout into a true Wrath, although I'm not sure how much that matters.

Basically, it seems that Humility vs. Moat boils down to, "Am I looking for a continuous Fog to keep myself alive until I set up Foundry, or am I looking for a way to stop troublesome utility creatures?" Put that way, it seems entirely meta-dependent, but I was wondering if one was generally better than the other.

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Humility is a fine substitute to Moat, and better in certain circumstances, shutting off Pridemage in particular. The only problem is that even with Humility out, the damage can mount fairly quickly. I run Bridge and Moat maindeck, Humility in the board. The one less mana for Bridge has been very useful with Enlightened Tutor. Since I have found room for the Bridge, there's really no reason you can't run Humility and Moat if you have them, Otherwise Humility with some additional removal would be good.

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

Quick question: what are people's thoughts on Humility versus Moat?

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I'm in the same situation as you, where I can put the rest of the deck together but don't want to shell out for a Moat.

Obviously, Humility and Moat have their own strengths and weaknesses, and their relative advantages depend heavily on the decks you expect to face. My opinion is that Humility is a stronger card overall than Moat (to the point that I wouldn't actually want Moat in my Landstill or Quinn decks), but that I'd probably prefer the latter in CounterThopter with an Enlightened Tutor package because it plays better with other commonly played artifacts like Ensnaring Bridge or Vedalken Shackles.

The problem with Humility is finding a way to prevent yourself from getting beaten by a swarm of 1/1s. In Landstill, that can often be managed by the likes of Mishra's Factory or Decree of Justice, but that's not really a practical solution for CounterThopter. You can also use jank like Orim's Prayer, Caltrops, or Thunderstaff to shut off those weenies, but no self-respecting player would ever include such narrow solutions. My inclination at this point, if I were to play Humility in CounterThopter, is to include more Swords of the Meek/Thopter Foundry to try to "combo out" faster.

Disclaimer: take my opinion with a few kilos of salt because I've never tried it out in a competitive setting.

From what this deck list looks like, I can see moat being a little better except in a lot of corner cases. I think that Humility is a lot more of a known quantity i.e. you take damage but not as much, and you can block all of their creatures with anything (including a manland) where Moat is better in normal cases but you are still in trouble from a Tombstalker, Clique or Predator.

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Originally Posted by jazzykat

From what this deck list looks like, I can see moat being a little better except in a lot of corner cases. I think that Humility is a lot more of a known quantity i.e. you take damage but not as much, and you can block all of their creatures with anything (including a manland) where Moat is better in normal cases but you are still in trouble from a Tombstalker, Clique or Predator.

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Humility is better against Qasali Pridemage, Faeries and Reanimator, Moat is better against Merfolk, Goblins and New Horizons.
It really depends on what meta you are expecting.

Actually I don't understand why he played 1 Crucible of Worlds, he did not play Wastelands or Manlands, so I think that having another free slot is better.

How is managing 4 colors? I prefer playing just 3 to have a more stable manabase..

Moved to Established.

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Originally Posted by Bardo

Moved to Established.

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Cheers! :laugh: Well done, maybe now we will have some more input! :cool:

But if you don't win with the thopter combo?
How do you win then :O:O?

And humilty is quit better I would say^^

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Originally Posted by BantFTW

But if you don't win with the thopter combo?
How do you win then :O:O?

And humilty is quit better I would say^^

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Can you give reasons to why Humility is better than Moat? Everyone before you commented the choice..

Humility is significantly better against Reanimator's stuff if we still care and Emrakul if that's a real deck. It's better against Pridemage and such, and worse against everything else. Personally I think Humility is better, but I don't think the difference is that significant.

Moat is better to protect Planeswalkers.
Humility is better when you play manlands.
Moat is better to save your butt for 2 or 3 turns.
Humility is better to lock the opponent on a biggest scale.

Perhaps I'm the only one, but after having played a UW control version of Thopter, I found that I had serious trouble with Goblins. Simply, by the time I could assemble the combo or drop Humility, I was too far behind the curve to pull it out. Even bad Goblins versions were smacking me around. I tried finding board hate. Peacekeeper struck me as being useful, as they would probably board out Incinerators against a creatureless deck and it came down faster than Moat. But that still left me losing badly in game 1 and less than 50/50 post board.

So I've switched to a more aggressive 4 color aggro version with Bob's and Goyfs and Knights. I don't blank my opponents creature removal anymore and my Lands M/U has gotten worse, since I don't have B2B anymore, but I've become much harder to board against, since I'm packing so many routes to victory (beats, thopter and Jace). I'm not as susceptible to Faerie Macabre or Krosan Grip and my aggro M/U has improved a great deal, especially with War Monks out of the board.

Has anyone else been dissatisfied with the full on control route?

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Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey

Perhaps I'm the only one, but after having played a UW control version of Thopter, I found that I had serious trouble with Goblins. Simply, by the time I could assemble the combo or drop Humility, I was too far behind the curve to pull it out. Even bad Goblins versions were smacking me around. I tried finding board hate. Peacekeeper struck me as being useful, as they would probably board out Incinerators against a creatureless deck and it came down faster than Moat. But that still left me losing badly in game 1 and less than 50/50 post board.

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If you want to beat Goblins, play Moat. There's no real substitute despite its pricetag, unfortunately. Same goes true for Merfolk, which is cold to Moat but still hits for 3-4 even with Humility down.

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Originally Posted by Rico Suave

If you want to beat Goblins, play Moat. There's no real substitute despite its pricetag, unfortunately. Same goes true for Merfolk, which is cold to Moat but still hits for 3-4 even with Humility down.

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Moat shuts down Gobos, but Folk has the commandeer now.

I play both at the moment with Humility in the Board. If I could only run humility I would probably pack Firespout main deck

4 stP
3 Firespout
1 Humility
1 Explosives
1 Needle
1 Crypt

12 Draw/11 Counter/5 Win/21 land

That actually seems really good...


In regards to the 4th color - I only have it for Krosan Grip, which is primarily for the mirror. You seldom have a match where you need both red and green, so it hasn't been much of an issue.

Money is no object; I only play on MWS. I used to have a Moat. Actually, two Moats and an Il Fossato :)

The thing is 4 mana has been too slow for me, especially if I'm forced to Daze a turn 1 Lackey or on the draw. I guess if it works for everyone else, it's definitely good against Fish if you can get it down. Stops that pesky Islandwalking.

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Originally Posted by pippo84

Cutting Jace? Don't think so, he is a real beast!

How can you say that this is a prison deck and not a control one? What prison elements you play? None.

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I agree with you, Jace is necessary in this deck. We are on the same page.

What prison elements do we play? Um... Moat/humility, Cbtop, recurring EE. It's not prizon in the sense the opponent can't do anything, but more in the sense what they do has zero consequence. We blank creatures almost entirely, dealing with other threats with EE or needle. That is only if they can find a way through Cbtop with tutor targets off of enlightened. When you hit the combo, you basically lock them out of the game. If you stabilize and set up, the rest of the game feels like a formality. That's all.

And hurray for established

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Originally Posted by Bardo

Moved to Established.

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Next step: DTB.


Enchantress decks are going to be more popular since they do well against Zoo. How does this deck handle them?

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Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey

Actually, two Moats and an Il Fossato :)

The thing is 4 mana has been too slow for me, especially if I'm forced to Daze a turn 1 Lackey or on the draw. I guess if it works for everyone else, it's definitely good against Fish if you can get it down. Stops that pesky Islandwalking.

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Fossato!

You don't need to Daze a turn 1 Lackey, especially if you run Moat. If you are in a position to Daze a turn 1 Lackey, it means you're on the play and will get to 4 mana before Goblins can kill you.

In fact, I would recommend not playing Daze at all.

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Moat shuts down Gobos, but Folk has the commandeer now.

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Yea, but you can StP that badboy. Humility + StP is poor.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Next step: DTB.


Enchantress decks are going to be more popular since they do well against Zoo. How does this deck handle them?

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Counterbalance, plus countering the Enchantress effects.

The opponent can still draw a card from casting an enchantment, even if it's countered, but a draw engine doesn't do him a lot of good if you can lock him out of his 1 and 2cc bracket. You should also have some number of Disenchant effects in your board to deal with Needle/Null Rod, and an Aura of Silence or two is a great way to grind Enchantress to a halt. Jace is also a decent way to end the game if your Thopters get neutralized.

Basically, you don't need to worry about sweeping Enchantress - you just need to stop them from drawing too many cards and locking you out of your graveyard with Wheel of Sun and Moon.