U/W/x CounterTop Walker

I've been away from Magic for a while now, but occasionally I'll come view a few threads. I've been thinking on and off about this deck, and I've come to decide that the deck really needs 3 Vedalken Shackles maindeck. The card is what I always wanted Wrath of God to be; mass removal that generates card advantage. The difference here is that Shackles continuously does this throughout the game. It becomes even stronger in multiples, it's lower casting cost is extremely relevant in modern Legacy, and being a 3 drop increases my density in that cc range for Counterbalance. When it comes to handling aggro, there is literally nothing better than Vedalken Shackles.

I've also been weighing on the third color splash. Vindicate is great at what it does, but splashing into a third color for it when Oblivion Ring does essentially the same thing (minus hitting lands) seems unecessary. There have been matchups where hitting a land is relevant, but those are few and far between. Plus, with Counterbalance and Shackles already, there's tons of targets for the opponent's artifact/enchantment removal, so being able to be destroyed by a Qasali Pridemage or Krosan Grip just isn't that big of a deal to me anymore.

Going down to 2 colors, I can safely drop my land count to 22. I've playtested multiple matchups now, and cutting back on a land has been literally a nonissue. The deck has a much lower curve than decks like Landstill, and runs such a stable basic-fueled manabase that establishing the proper color sources and total number of lands even in the face of multiple Wastelands is fairly easy.

Here's the U/W build I'm currently testing now, to great effect:

U/W CounterTop Walker

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [R] Tundra
7 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [NE] Kor Haven

// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [OD] Predict
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [IA] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 [LG] Moat
SB: 4 [WL] Peacekeeper
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle

Nice MD, Hanny!
I'd be willing to test that draft as it is, since I cannot find anything that needs to be changed at that point.
The only thing that comes to mind would be:
-2 O.Ring
-3 Island
+2 Engineered Explosives
+2 Tropical Island
+1 Academy Ruins
I don't think EE conflicts with your non-land permanents, since there are so few to beginn with.
Also, with seven basic lands (15 incl. fetches) your mana base would still be solid as hell plus you could be running Grip in the SB.

Speaking of the SB, I just can't view Oblivion Ring as a SB card - it's a swiss knife for sure, but that's exactly what a control deck wants their MD cards to be. Grip on the other hand is specific hate - I don't think I need to elaborate further.

Humility, like Oblivion Ring would be a potential MD choice imo. It becomes significantly weaker G2/G3 since CB and Shackles will make your opponents board in any Disenchant effects availlable to them, making Humility's worse.
Peacekeeper looks fine though - especially since CB-Top is a nice way to protect her.
I'd probably run Paths #3&4 in the Humility slots - thoughts?

EE doesn't have a cmc of 3 for Counterbalance (big reason why I prefer Vindicate and Oblivion Ring over it MD), and with only 2 colors, it's pretty bad. Even going to 3 colors, EE still doesn't answer some of the 4cc stuff that O Ring can (like opposing Planeswalkers).

The only matchups I'd really rather have EE are the ones where my opponent either has multiple problematic artifacts/enchantments (like Enchantress), or against swarms of tokens (like Dredge and EtW). I don't expect to see much Enchantress, and both Counterbalance and Jace are pretty amazing in that matchup anyway. As for EtW, I'm pretty happy with my Storm matchup, and against Dredge... well, it's one of those matchups that's just going to be bad preboard.

Also, EE does conflict with my deck. Most of the stuff EE will be hitting is 2cc and 3cc stuff. My deck is almost like a Stax deck; it grinds out card advantage and control over the board with permanent-based solutions: Counterbalance and Vedalken Shackles (and Top and Planeswalkers too, of course). I'd rather not have to choose between blowing up my CB/Shackles or my opponents stuff.

I'd sooner splash black for Vindicate than green for Krosan Grip, but the third splash color is purely preference for this deck. Some prefer red, some black, some green. Myself, I'm satisfied right now without a splash.

As far as O Ring in the board goes, you're right. However, I want something that deals with artifacts and enchantments in that spot. I only run 2 answers to them MD, and I'd like to have an extra 2 postboard for the matchups where it matters. I could go with Disenchant, but O Ring can still answer creatures/etc if there are no artifacts/enchantments that need answering. I'm content with leaving them in the board for now.

As far as Humility goes, it's there for Goblins and NO/Bant. I was having a toss up between it and Moat, but ultimately sided with Humility since it cannot be destroyed by Qasali Pridemage. Against Goblins, shutting off their CA (Matron/Ringleader) is the key to winning the lategame against them, which Humility does. I realize Moat would be better vs them, but it's worse vs NO/Bant. So I'm torn between the two. If I went back to the black splash, I'd probably just fit in Engineered Plagues to specifically handle Goblins and let the NO/Bant matchup be handled by Peacekeeper (they usually only run 4 StP for the Peacekeeper, which I can easily counter/drop another Peacekeeper).

So to sum it up: Right now, I'm 100% content with the MD, and I'm still a little iffy on some of my sideboard choices. 4 Pithing Needle may be too much, and I'm not sure if I should go with Moat or Humility just yet. It may be possible that I eventually go back to the black splash, MD Vindicate, SB Engineered Plague and up the Peacekeeper count to 4 or something (for NO/Bant and Merfolk).

When I say 100% content with the MD, I mean 100% content. Aside from possibly swapping the 2 O Rings for 2 Vindicates again (and fitting in a USea/Scrubland), everything feels perfect. 2/2 is the right number of Planeswalkers, 3 is the right number of Predict, 4 is the right number of Counterspells, and the removal suite is absolutely perfect too. To top it off, I'm running 21 blue spells for FoW, and my curve for Counterbalance is beautiful with 14 1cc, 11 2cc, 5 3cc, 4 4cc, and 4 5cc.

EDIT: For the SB, maybe I'll drop 1 Needle for 1 Peackeeper and cut the Humilities for Moats vs Goblins. That way I have 4 Peacekeeper for Merfolk, which can also be used against removal-light NO/Bant, and obviously Moat is better vs Goblins. Much to think about...

EDIT 2: Yea, I changed my sideboard around and it's working pretty well so far. I've updated my decklist.

This deck looks truly amazing and I've tried it some on MWS. I wholeheartedly agree with your list. All the removal and them shackles are neccessary to beat aggro, and CBT is obviously win vs combo. Aye, I can see this deck performing very well indeed.

How well does the deck fair against controll "mirror" ?

There are many different control decks out there, so my matchup against the control mirror depends highly upon what control deck I'm up against.

For the typical blue control mirrors, Elspeth is savage at destroying opposing Jace's, Counterbalance is pretty good at dominating the stack, and Pithing Needle out of the board to shut down the opponent's EE's and Mishra's Factory's is also really strong. Meddling Mage comes in against some control mirrors, but that's matchup specific.

As far as actual matchup percentages... you'd really need to narrow down what control mirror you had in mind. If you're referencing CounterTop Thopter's, this deck has a great matchup against that deck, both preboard and postboard.

Deck looks streamlined, simple and very stable. Excellent list! Will test it. Not sold on kor haven though. How many times do you actually use it compared to the times it's been wastelanded? I'd prefer it be another fetch or basic since this deck can safely drop basics for the first 3-4 turns to play around wastelands. I hope this deck is the best answer to the current meta. Your deck was the first that sprung to mind when I was looking for a stable countertop list. I've been on the 4c intuition countertop bandwagon but right now a 4c manabase is impossible to support with so much tempo in the meta. Cheers.

I love the single Kor Haven. Tapping for colorless is rarely an issue, since its my only colorless source, and my deck has tons of colorless costs. The ability to randomly shut down a big guy while I wait to draw a removal spell is really nice coming from a "spell" that I can tap for mana EOT if nothing else to spin my Top. It does eat Wasteland sometimes, but so do my Tundra's. I love my singleton Kor Haven, but it's my own tech and it isn't mandatory for the deck to function well.

EDIT: Also wanted to add how nice it is to drop a Planeswalker on a clean board with a Kor Haven in play. Kor Haven is also "uncounterable," which can be relevant sometimes.

Another option is Karakas, that card is pretty good right now with Show and Tell/NO being pretty popular. I'll test em both out. Cheers.

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Another option is Karakas, that card is pretty good right now with Show and Tell/NO being pretty popular. I'll test em both out. Cheers.

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Kor Haven is an answer to any untargetable or pro everything creature, whereas Karakas is strictly only good against Emrakul or other targetable legends. Karakas does tap for white though, so I see no harm in running it. This deck does a pretty good job of beating Show and Tell though, especially postboard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Kor Haven is an answer to any untargetable or pro everything creature.

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Kor Haven still targets.

Thanks for the reply, even though I wasnt very specific in what I was saying you did manage to answer it quite satsisfactory. Initially I felt that the SB didn't really contain anything to board vs controll MU:s but then I did figure out that pithing needle and meddling mages has their uses there as well.

you sure running "only" 2 jaces is the right number? seems to me that you have to be a bit careful when playing him, especially vs other jace.decs since you can't really afford to lose one unless your opponent really commits to it.

EDIT: I'm not saying its wrong, I'd just like to hear the reason behind it :)

Just figured that Aura of Silence seems to be superior to those SB O. Rings:
- Same CMC, double white shouldn't be an issue
- actually more dedicated AND more versatile hate (hates on affinity-styles decks, as well as enchantress and the likes PLUS petal-storm-combo.dec)
- with all those decks floating around: Affinity2.0, Eldrazi, Metal Worker.dec it's a great addition
- can also be dropped preemptively against CB
- list goes on

Quote:

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Kor Haven still targets.

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I meant to say Kor Haven is an answer to any targetable or non pro everything creature. Was kinda tired when I typed that up.

Quote:

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Just figured that Aura of Silence seems to be superior to those SB O. Rings:

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That could very well be. I'll test them in place of the O Rings and see if I like them better. Although, maybe Serenity would be even better. Needless to say, the 2 spots in my sideboard that are currently O Rings, are 2 spots I want to dedicate to artifact/enchantment removal. What the correct 2 are, I'm not yet certain.

I have to side with Hanni on the O-Rings, usually they are just Vindicate without black mana. They're better against SnT decks than Vindicate, for obvious reasons.

Still, I do like the black splash a lot because I get to Edict effects, which are really good in our metagame. Everyone and their mother are running UGx Tarmogoyf+Mongoose decks, so I need some maindeck solutions against an onslaught of angry mongeese.

Anyhow, this post is for another story of success. Went 4-0-2 in Hanover last weekend, finishing 3rd place.

My list was as follows, no massive changes from the previous list, added the 23rd land/61st card. Heretic style, man!

//Land
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Tolaria West
1 Kor Haven
1 Academy Ruins

//Walkers
2 Jace the Mindsculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

//Permission
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance

//Draw
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Predict

//Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Vindicate
2 Vedalken Shackles

//Sideboard
3 Duress
3 Spell Snare
3 Peacekeeper
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wrath of God

The maindeck is made of awesomesauce with a grain of HELL YEAH.
Now, I'm not 100% certain on the sideboard. Peacekeeper and EE as well as the GY package are to stay because our metagame has boatloads of Dredge decks, which demand at least 8 dedicated hate cards. WoG is a bit meh, I'll try out Humility in that spot, possibly. Snare and Duress are there to compensate dead cards in control mirrors or against combo.

Matchups on that day were
R1 - TES: 2-0, A good matchup to start, and I could even outplay him both games.

R2 - BW Deadguy w/ Vials: 2-1, Lost G1 to mulligan into oblivion, then crushed him G2 and G3.

R3 - Staff/NO Elves: 2-0, Game 1 was long and drawn-out, but I could lock him under CB and finally land Jace. Game 2 was short - I cast Turn 4 Peacekeeper, he tanks, flips through his sideboard, facepalms and offers the handshake. :)

R4 - 4C CounterTop: 1-1-1, had to draw G3 because of some epic misplays on my side. Guess the Kebab in my stomach was drawing too much attention.

R5 - GW Living Taxes: 1-1-1, G1 he steamrolls me, G2 I lock him down under Peacekeeper, G3 starts with someone shouting "TUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURNS!"

R6 - Tempo Bant: 2-0, G1 I stabilize at 9 life and ride it home in superfriends mode, G2 he wastes a dual, then I tutor up Kor Haven which basically wins the game on its own by buying at least 6 turns. To add insult to injury I topdeck the singleton WoG before dropping Jace and Elspeth.

So, how about my sideboard? I'm still not quite sure if that's good, and the meta is in such a flux these days that I basically want 25 slots for it. :(

Congrats on your finish. I don't have any comments for your sideboard because I don't know what you are trying to accomplish with it. I can explain what I am trying to accomplish with my sideboard if you'd like, and you can draw ideas from that. Or you can list what matchups you want to address, and I can try to offer some options.

Also, just wanted to let everyone know that I am currently working on a primer for this thread. It's 10 Word pages long right now, not sure how long it'll end up being. I'm not sure when I will finish it, but I've been steadily working on it and am hoping to have it finished soon.

Nemesis, was there any situation where Diabolic Edict was better than Go for the Throat/Path to Exile that day? I know it's another out to Emrakul/Prog, but other than dedicated SnT/Sneak Attack decks and those Storm/Doomsday/Shelldock decks, I think selecting your target is much better. I rarely find G/x decks that NO with only one dude out, or that don't have a fetch ready to crack for a Dryad Arbor.

@ Mana Drain, I'm with you on this one, maybe he prefers 2ccs to curve out with Balance better? In that case, GFTT/Smother is probably a better call. Usually I find path is the best, cheap and simple. I place very high value on basics right now and vindicate is IMO not worth splashing for. I would say 60+ % of legacy decks are running wastelands and I don't like losing to those double/triple wasteland draws.

@Hanni: I want the SB to be as generalized as it can be. I have excess removal in any non-aggro matchup, but I don't like Spell Snare that much, being very narrow and not making the really tricky matchups better. I'm talking about MUD or Elves here. Meh, this is difficult.

@ManaDrain: In that tournament, no there wasn't. There were some Doomsday and SnT decks though, so it could have been the other way round too. In other tournaments though, Edict also was needed. We have a lot of UGx Thresh-style decks here and I have no other outs to a resolved Nimble Mongoose. I also don't run Innocent Blood because of it being sorcery speed and for mana curve reasons.

FYI, I ran the same list at the monthly Iserlohn tournament yesterday. Finished 3-3, but I scrubbed out big time in 2 rounds, that sucks...

People still play mongoose? Haha, Jk, I know traditional Canadian threshold is doing well. I understand your reasoning. Ever thought about E. explosives? Good against geese and wrecks vial/ kitties. Cheers.

Hanni,

Could you elaborate your SB for your UW build?
Hope you finish the primer soon, as I really like this deck!

@Nemesis:
Why the spell snares SB? I agree they are semi-good against combo, but when I side cards against combo, it should be cards that wreck them (canonist and friends) I understand spell snare is potent against other decks too, but against which decks is it that good you really really want it postSB?