[Deck] The Rock

Well there really isn't a right answer. Birds are better with doran. They can pick up both swords. Exalted triggers are a lot bigger than you would think. It's good if you run the swords or jitte. It doesn't cause you cards disadvantage. It really is play style. Play style dictates how you list looks which also means what cards are better than others. For example I run more basics than most. I have also dropped most discard from the list only running 4 thoughtseize. So my mana requirements aren't that hard to attain. But I am now trying the deck without the maze of ith. I run a more aggro list with 18 creatures. I sometimes think about adding hierarch, but i need to test my list more. My curve is really high. It is 1.92.

That is pretty high, mine is only 1.15. Are you running that with Birds or without any acceleration?

1.15? wow that's really low. Is that your average cmc(all mana costs/# non-lands) or average bob flip?(all mana costs/60) The reason why my curve is so high is because right now i'm running a mystic package. I might drop it, the package with the mystics is 2.4 of the curve. The dilemma is do i want excel with mystics? but if i do that, can i hold my own without the equipments(much like Deadguy ale can't) I haven't really tested my list but it looks like
3 tops
4 seize
4 swords
2 path

4 bob
4 goyf
2 pridemage
2 mystic
1 jitt

4 vindicate
4 knight
2 witness
1 solas
1 sofi

i might drop an artifact. I might scrap the list. One thing i didn't like about brad's list was the threat density. You have 12 threats. But in reality bob can't usually finish the game all by himself. The thing is there are so many viable options with this deck. Birds and hierarch can be horrid topdecks. But at the same time drawing a birds and equipping it can also be on the the best plays. I really hate testing online, I don't find it fun. However my playtest group has been rather busy. I will do some goldfishing and see how it goes without any disruption/threats. I will ultimately probably run something similar to extended doran if i want to keep the mystic.

O with the limited testing i have had with this list I slaughter gobos and slower versions of the rock. Anything aggro is a great match up it seems. Control is a pain. Jace just does what he does best... win

I was looking on deckdb. Here's my list with the pulses in the place of the path. My lands are a bit different.

Ah, yeah, the 1.15 is the full 60 cards. It'd make a lot more sense if your 1.92 was just with your non-land spells. Not counting mana-producing lands, I'd be at 1.8. I think if you're slowing the deck down that much, try to fit in an Elspeth. They are really solid. I have a couple problems with Equipment in the Rock... one, they aren't efficient. The deck likes to play efficiency and it seems like another threat would just be faster and more consistent. Two, since the deck likes to play big efficient creatures, it's very safe to run Deeds. You only have to play one threat to match an aggro deck's multiple smaller threats, making it easy for you to not over-extend into your own Deed. Equipment has the benefit of making weak creatures into bigger threats, but when you blow a Deed the result is the same and you lose 2+ cards instead of just 1+.

So a friend of mine and I ground out some games last night. Rock vs. Dreadstill, and Rock vs. Landstill. My friend was playing my Rock deck, and I was playing the others. These were all pre-board.

In the Dreadstill matchups, I went all in against him in the first few games, putting out Dreadnoughts on turn 2. On the times he played first, he won most of them due to ripping my hand apart, and then Swords'ing my Dreadnought if it stuck. At times I had enough counters to get rid of his destruction, other times he blew my shit up. Fun games all around.

Then, we ground out one game against UBGW Landstill, where I was playing Landstill. The game took about an hour, and result in him being victorious by me decking myself. I countered/removed every threat he had, but he got there. He killed all of my Jaces, ran me out of counters, ripped my hand apart, and Swords'd all of my Factories. The game went into the extreme long-game and I literally had nothing. As well, he was landscrewed for the first 3 turns. Case in point: Rock seems to do decently well if against Landstill if we can either stick a threat, or run Jacestill out of threats itself :P

Too bad we didn't have a video camera going, otherwise I'd post the epic battle we had.

-Matt

Pretty epic game it sounds like haha. I expect, like most of our MUs, they would only get better after siding.

What do you think good SBs would be in the different MUs? I'd think Deed might be underwhelming against Dreadstill, but maybe not since they run Counterbalance and Deed for 0 isn't all bad.

Either way, perhaps more hand disruption would be good? I think these are MUs where Selkies would really shine as well.

Glissa, The Traitor BGG
3/3 Legendary Creature - Zombie Elf
Deathtouch, first strike
Whenever a creature an opponent controls is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, you may return target artifact card from your graveyard to your hand.

To me, she screams Rock w/ Engineered Explosives. LoL, but I'm unsure adding her just for a recurring EE would viable. Thoughts on the new card? (Other then being totally disappointed)

My apologies on not being active, my list has been on standstill (harhar) for a bit until the Christmas season is over. Been waiting for a Maze of Ith to come in the mail for 2 weeks now. So there have been no changes and the latest subject (Mox Diamond vs Heirarch/BoP) has been discussed before, the result being what sdematt just said.

The other half being Survival banning. Perhaps we will see more top8's since Survival based decks clogged up most of the spots, but honestly, I think Rock will keep on keeping on. In short, Time Spiral is NOT good news for us. Unless we strip hands down, Tendrils decks I feel are our worst matchup. Now add another combo deck when some of us feel that dropping some discard for more aggro due to SotF banning? Not any better. We will have to see, I'm dropping the deck and I'm not making any changes until I see what the meta is like and I can get my feet wet.

Otherwise I have not felt like my input was needed. Happy Holidays all!

Time Spiral makes Spring Tide tier 2 with a more consistent 4th turn. These decks rely heavily on you NOT touching them for at least 4-5 turns, nevermind laying a threat, hand disruption, or vindicating their Islands. Suffice to say, there's a reason we don't see huge masses of High Tide anymore, and Time Spiral isn't going to bring it back.

-Matt

Well i think time spiral will be used more in spring tide rather than high tide. which means they're susceptible to wasteland. Atmy list, i think i but a lot of meh creatures to justify the inclusion of the equipment. @ landstill... That matchup is so boring. I think i will put 1-2 deeds main because it helps against most matchups i have ttroule with. thoptertop, 4c cb, landstill. Things with retardedly broken engines. i.e Jace. Also equipment is bad against those matchups. I think i can sac some of the aggro matchup which i have a walk in the park against.

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Originally Posted by AggroSteve

i think i have to add my 2 cents to thins conversation,.... i am using mox diamonds and i just love them

i used birds of paradise before, i played a more controllish build, but the best list i was using is the tempobased strategy of brad nelsons list, and i do not think that his list was flawed, since lists similar to his made a lot of T8 afterwards

yes mox diamonds sacrifice consistency for speed, but it is actually worth it, since like this you can get rid of threads/problems even before they appear with discard, and that even on turn 1....

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No argument. T1 Diamond, with at least 2 lands and Bob/Hymn is explosive. But like I pointed out, your chance of having the T1 Diamond are about 1 in 3. That's not the odds of having Diamond with 2 lands and Bob/Hymn/Verdict. That's the odds of having T1 Diamond. You're playing a card that's explosive maybe 20% of the time and dead 80% of the time. Run the numbers on MTGO or MWS and see what your likelyhood of a good opening are.

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ok yeah thoughtseize does the same as well, BUT with mox+hymn you can wreck your opponents day if your picking the right things, and it will allways be CA

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No, it's card parity. You trade 2 cards (land pitched to Diamond and Hymn/Verdict) and 2 mana for 2 cards. Unless you get some good stuff with Hymn, it's actually a tempo loss. Now Hymn is good enough that it's still a strong play, but you're still relying on luck to swing you through it. If you get the right things, it's tempo advantage, but turn 1 Hymn is NEVER card advantage.

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i am well aware of the pro an cons to mox diamond but if you have a build in which they fit in, you should not have any problems with the drawback of mox

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The only synergy Rock has with Diamond is that it pumps KotR. It's not like we're running Loam to ignore the card disadvantage. We don't run Lavamancer, which could feed off the extra cards in yard, or Psychatog or any other GY interaction other than KotR. That's not a strong incentive to run the card.

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i for my part wont go back to a list without mox diamonds, and the only thing that i would change in brad nelsons list would be the 2 verdicts, but even that would strongly depend on the meta, meaning i would only change the 2 verdicts into something else if i would have a more aggro-heavy meta, and if i would be in a more aggro meta, i probably would opt for 2 dorans, since he would stop lots of merfolk/goblin/affinity aggression, just for his sice and ability

hopefully my thoughts got through to you (i think my english is not to awesome, but the bigger problem is me often being confused^^)


- funny, Dzra was just a bit faster, and pointed the same thoughts out, but a lot clearlyier than i did^^

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And that's fine. That's why we have a thread about the deck, instead of everyone playing the same listing. I'm just saying that Mox Diamond is demonstrably subpar. Can you win with it? Sure. My old roomate in San Diego used to have a version of the T1 turboland deck that used Mountain Goat as its win-con instead of Stroke or Fire/Ice. Once you assembled the combo, the win-con didn't really matter. But was it sub-par? Absolutely.

Unfortunately there's no perfect fit for mana acceleration in this deck, like a Hierarch that tapped for BGW. You either run a weaker and somewhat outdated creature (birds), you run Hierarch and hurt your access to early BB, or you run Mox and take the CA hit. Mox is perfect for Aggro Loam and Stax because of Loam and Crucible making up the drawback, combined with the real desire for broken turn 1 plays (turn 1 Trini, Chalice @ 1, Crucible, etc.) Hierarch of course perfectly fits Bant, GU and GW decks of all sorts.

Birds was Rock's go-to for a long time, but Birds ain't what it used to be.

I'm going to try all the different options. I suspect I'll end up sticking with Hierarch as the main thing that is hurt is early Hymn. That's not good, but it seems the least of the evils.

Saying that Mox Diamond is card disadvantage is only true in the strictest sense of CA. Chrome Mox is disadvantage, Force is disadvantage, tossing a land to Diamond isn't making your hand any less potent. You lose a card, but a land card, and the deck has plenty of land. You actually get mana screwed less with Mox Diamond due to the popularity of Wastelands in just about every archtype.

Sure people run less than optimized lists all the time and I hate to fall back on this argument because even pros can run less than optimized lists, but do you really think it's coincidence or people just being copy cats that every Rock list that has placed recently ran Mox Diamond?

I can at least understand the argument of "I don't want Diamonds because I want higher impact density," but running Nobles/Birds over Diamonds? They take away from your threat density just the same, except without the ridiculous plays.

I can, however, agree with FieryBalrog that hopefully in the future, we get access to a better accelerator... but I think we might be waiting for a while.

appearingly my post from a few days ago was not clear enough i think,... ok still mox or no mox will allways be a decision for every player to make, the thing i love about mox the most is that (even if its just about 27% or whatever) he enables broken 1st turn-plays, and we got plenty of them available (depending on list something between 12 and 17), and this does not seem subpar to me at all,..... ok we do not run any recursion for lands, this may be true, and i do not want to argument on this because i find both life from the loam and even crucible if someone wants to consider it, to be horrible in this deck (brad nelson-similar list)

hymn not being CA if cast 1st turn may be true, but compared to the use of a 1st turn hymn has, i gladly sacrifice this one land for the extra speed

i believe Dzra said the most fitting thing about mox diamond in this deck..... this deck is not to use mox diamond for synergy, but to abuse it for a speed burst.... hopefully my quote here was right (to lazy to search for the post^^) otherwise please excuse

talking about poor synergy ... hierarch has in no ways a better synergy with this deck if you ask me, and the exalted triggers are not worth his inclusion IMO, since we got the biggest beats around that are easily castable and we can take care of any thread in our way


gosh, again,....
while writing i forget to what point i want to get..... doh^^,...... i think basically it was diamond is good, may seem subpar on paper but rapes other players game IMO...... when i changed to the list with moxes i finally got what i wanted, ... being able to play the aggro role against other aggro control decks which gives me and my playstyle just the flexibility i wanted...... (basically making mox diamond a choice of playstyle i think, but by no means subpar, maybe with not the best synergy with the rest of the deck, but not subpar)

yeah, remembered what i wanted to write^^


funny, dzra was again a bit faster than me, and again made all the thoughts on mox way clearlier visible than my post^^

Just wanted to say to everyone in the Rock Thread, Merry Christmas!

-Matt

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Originally Posted by ZeinVoncy

Otherwise I have not felt like my input was needed. Happy Holidays all!

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Restating it! :D Thanks sdematt.

Alright, I feel I need to put in my 2 cents on the Mox Diamond conversation.

Just a little background first. I have played many versions of the rock for a while. I generally consider it my pet deck and try all kinds of crazy things with it. I feel that I have a significant background and experience playing it and different versions. I have played extensively versions that run the Stoneforge Mystic package, the no acceleration package as well as a loam heavy version. I played at the GP Columbus earlier this year with a loam based rock deck and went 9-1-1 on day 1 and then placed 71st overall (same number of points as people in the 40's, just bad tie-breakers).

First off there is no way you can run this deck and be competitive in about any meta without some sort of mana acceleration package and I think most of you realize this. It's true there is no perfect mana accelerate for this list and options are quite limited. As stated before turn 2 is where everything happens in legacy so you need that first turn diamond or hierarch.

As to whether to play Diamond or Heirarch, I feel they are pretty close, but I prefer the diamond. It is card disadvantage, but the rest of this deck is card advantage, so I'm completely fine with that. We all understand the advantages and disadvantages of having a 5 color mana source and being wasteland-proof, that is almost an obvious advantage. Sure they can swords your heirarch, but if they do, you're generally in a good position because now they have 1 less swords for your goyf/bob/knight, the real threats. The real reason why I prefer diamond is because sometimes you need to play the tempo role.

There's been a few articles written by famous mtg writers about who's the control and who's the aggro. I suggest that everyone read up on these articles because you really need to understand this concept when playing this deck. The Rock is a mid-range deck. You've got to really accept this fact and think about it often when playing. Every matchup that you play in should change your playstyle depending upon the other deck. You really need to decide what's the best way to beat deck X and how am I going to get there. Think about all the cards you play and how they will affect this specific matchup. There are times where you either need to play the tempo role, or be able to keep up with the opposing tempo based deck. Sure noble hierarch can do this, but Mox Diamond is far superior in this position.

Both cards do become pretty dead draws later, but this is why you play fetchlands and top, so we won't talk about that.

I'm pretty sure that we can all agree that the weakest card in the deck would probably be the 2x Gerard's Verdict. If you're aiming for a more aggro meta, these would probably be the first to go. I'd play 2x Ghastly Demise in it's spot, but I'm sure others will still prefer Path to Exile (which now that vengevine survival is gone is even less attractive).

The Stoneforge Mystic package is interesting, but you really have to play a more aggro style of rock for it to really be worth pursuing and even then it is pretty weak. One thing that really makes rock stand out is like I said above, you really change your play style depending on what the opponent is playing. Your role as a deck constantly changes from game to game. If you add the mystic package you're really cutting down on your options here. By adding equipment you now have to play a good amount of creatures in order to take full advantage of this, which in turn takes away other control elements of the deck and you're less able to adapt to the certain strategy that beats the opposing deck. Also the other problem I ran into with the mystic package is it's just kinda clunky. It is mana intensive and as somebody previously stated, not efficient. Stoneforge mystic + Jitte + Equip = 6 mana at least. Even then you're stuck with a Squire with a sword. I'd much rather just play a decent creature if this is the case because it is more versatile. This will really show in the control matchup when they take out your few creatures and you're stuck with a cold Jitte.

On a different note, here's my predictions on the upcoming meta. Survival is gone, aggro decks (zoo, merfolk, goblins) can now come out and play again. With aggro decks coming out of hiding, storm combo decks now have much more to prey upon, so they will increase in popularity as well. Control decks (landstill, dreadstill, countertop bant) will stay about the same. The control matchup I've always felt was a pretty easy win. (at GP Columbus I played 6 or 7 counterbalance decks and lost to none of them) The aggro decks and combo decks are ones that actually deserve some sideboard slots. I know some of you have talked about playing duress in the board, but I've always felt it was pretty weak. I'm about to try it out though with the following changes: - 2 Engineered Explosives from main, -2 Gerard's Verdict from main, + 1 Vindicate (I was only playing 3) + 1 Ghastly Demise, and + 2 Quasali. I feel this will help a bit more in the aggro matchup providing blockers in the form of Quasali which vs the goblins and merfolk matchup they can trade, and help out in the control matchup by being able to destroy the counterbalance, moat, etc. and also the extra creature control in the forms of Demise and Vindicate. + 4 Duress to the sideboard to help fight the combo matchup should be significant enough as 12 discard effects are pretty solid and I've found that the targeted discard (duress and thoughtseize) actually tend to be better than even hymn to tourach in this matchup. I also have been working a UBW storm list that uses cunning wish, chants and the like, so I'm pretty familiar with how a storm deck operates.

I haven't tested Elspeth in this deck, and I can certainly see her advantages, I just think she's too slow for my taste. If you're going for a more controlled variation though she may work out good for you, but again I prefer to stay as flexible as possible as to take on the strategy needed to beat the opposing deck.

Do you have a specific strategy or SBing plan against Countertop (I mainly see Thopters, but there's also a Painter/Grindstone)? I've never had problems losing to Countertop, but I end up drawing to them far more than I'd like. The problem is that we both usually end up in topdeck mode and stall out for long periods of time. I haven't tried my new SB plan against them yet (+4 Extirpate, +2 Cold-Eyed Selkie, +2 Deed), but outside of just encouraging them to play faster, what would you suggest?

Deed is REALLY good against Thopters, as are Basic Lands (to combat back to basics) and Engineered Plague on Thopters. Leyline of Sanctity stops Jace, as well. Basically, if you can drop serious disruption early or get rid of their combo, they only have Jace to win. Since you have 4-6 Vindicates and creatures, you should be okay. With regular CounterTop, blow it up ASAP, and lay out more threats than them. In terms of sideboarding, Deed is very good.

-Matt

Because I usually have a difficult time with the Zoo matchup, I tend to have at least 3, but usually 4 kitchen finks in the sideboard I always bring these in because they tend to run very few 3 drops. The finks is a threat that gets past balance and it helps in a few other ways in this matchup such as keeping you in the game when they have a big knight swinging at you. Usually a finks can add 3 turns to their clock, which a lot of times is enough to get out your own knight which tends to be about the same if not bigger. Also your knight can pull out the bojuka bog that you should be running.

Deed is a bomb of course and I usually run 2 in the side so those are good. I was playing 2x EE in the main which helped a lot. It's usually a great idea to drop EE or even Deed if possible preemptively. For instance if I know I'm playing against counterbalance (or standstill) and I can drop a Mox Diamond on turn 1 with a land, I'll hold onto the goyf or bob and drop the EE at 2. They tend to have a good amount of things other that CB that can be blow up at 2 such as goyf or the version you're seeing: thopter foundry. Against control decks you really need to be careful about your bob, and even more so in this matchup. An active bob wins you the game, that's almost a guarantee. You really do not want to drop out bob unless you know he's safe - after a thoughtseize removing the STP. Of course extirpate is gonna be awesome in removing sword and stopping that combo, but don't be afraid to snipe any other staple in the deck, especially if you have a vindicate to blow up thopter foundry later. The main thing that I aim for with extirpate is STP. If they have no STP and you get a couple guys out, they lose. I think the reason why people don't play the thopter combo anymore is because it's so easy to hate against it. You can attack the graveyard, which most legacy decks already have grave hate for the dredge matchup, and also through blowing up thopter foundry. K-grip is not used very often, but if these are the decks that you're having problems with, it sounds like K-grip is an acceptable answer in your meta.

Recently because of survival's dominance I've been running 2x pithing needle is the side which actually comes into play here too. This may sound crazy, but I take out my sensei's divining top and put in needle because it's usually going to name top. Honestly counterbalance isn't that much of a thorn in your side, it's the top that allows counterbalance to do anything. It's okay to lose a good chunk of life to bob in exchange for shutting down their soft lock and a good part of their deck. Also the needles come in handy in naming grindstone and thopter foundry again.

Also in the older list that I played at the GP I ran 2x Quasali in the main which as I said previously are about to come back into the list. It is really fun to drop a Mox Diamond then a Quasali on turn 1 vs CB. It's even pretty good second turn especially after a thoughtseize removing their STP. I can recall many games won by an lone exalted Quasali just swinging. If they drop a CB, the key here is to just keep swinging with the Quasali till they drop a threat of their own that outclasses it or if they try to kill the Quasali.

The Selkie is a very interesting idea that I've been thinking about trying out, just haven't really gotten around to it. I can really see it's benefits in the lists that run Noble Hierarch.

i have to tell you this.... first of all happy holidays to everyone^^

and than.... vengevine is not dead,... i am often looking into the UG vengevine / madness thread and now that survival is banned, there is more action in their thread than before and they have allready come up with new decklists running entomb, and practically being even a bit faster than the survival-lists, but also a bit more vulnerable, because they do not have the tutoring engine anymore, but actually i would not suspect their deck to go low on numbers because it is still a viable choice for every meta that can still race decks like zoo or other aggrodecks

practically i would wait a bit and see how the meta changes and only than applying some changes to the lists we are running, specially my sideboard extirpates will stick there forever^^

@ magicsk8ngenius: i was wondering how quasali performed compared to other possible choices for this slot,..... i was thinking of cutting verdicts for either quasali or doran (2-off)
did you test doran maybe?, tell me what you are thinking on this matter,.... thx in advance