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The sad thing, the replacement has to be dual lands or lands better than dual lands (not going to happen) otherwise there is still the power level of revised dual lands v.s. better-than-ravnica-dual lands. Every drawback costs you games, the revised dual lands don't have drawbacks aside being non-basic.
Wouldn't it be possible to reprint some legacy staples like force of will or Duals to reduce their price to 20-40 each(just arbitrary) and still not hurt collectors that much?
I mean the collectors will still have their beta black lotuses and bazaars and expensive flashy stuff like that wouldn't they?
the reserved list doesn't need to be totally abolished, just some popular cards could be removed from it or something..
Also, reprinting duals wouldn't really crash the collector market. Players will just buy the new ones, and the price of the old ones will stay the same. Collectors can trade amongst themselves to get their hands on the old ones.
Good example of old cards seeing reprint and it's value not going down are Wasteland and Mox Diamond.
I don't see what's wrong with reprints.
Mox Diamond dropped from $40 to $30ish when it was reprinted, and it would probably be at least $45-50 now if it hadn't been reprinted.
Mox Diamond (Stronghold) is at 49.99 on SCG. MOTL has it for 32.88 average, but I think MOTL is factoring in FtV Mox Diamond, which is lowering the average.
No one is saying the cards won't go down or at least fluctuate if duals/etc get printed. But people act like their collection would be worthless and just tank if they are reprinted which clearly won't happen.
As others have said Birds of Paradise has been reprinted lots and the old ones are still worth lots of money. If I want to play Birds I get the cheapest 1 which is what a dollar? I have no chance getting the $100+ birds. Same would happen if they reprinted force duals or whatever, I would get the cheapest cards I could to play my deck
old ones as in beta birds
you really think revised duals wouldn't plummet?
please
No they wouldn't since their value is tied to scarcity. Newer players would flock to the newer reprints, and the older versions will be left at the same price.
It just makes it harder to sell them since the only buyers left will be collectors who want the older one.
The value of Revised dual lands is tied to their playability much more than scarcity.Quote:
Originally Posted by nwong
An interesting case that illustrates this is a comparison between the Power 9 (which were printed only in A/B/U) and Dual Lands (which were printed in A/B/U and Revised, the latter of which had a much larger print run).
Alpha and Beta Power 9 and dual lands are highly desirable items because they are extremely rare, highly playable, and iconic to the game. The corresponding white bordered versions are not as "pimp", but are every bit as playable.
A/B dual lands fetch as much as the Power 9 (other than Lotus), but an Unlimited dual land costs only about a fifth as much as an Unlimited Power 9. Why is that? Because dual lands were reprinted in Revised and Power 9 were not. Unlimited and Revised cards have equal playability, and the former is only slightly more desirable than the latter from a collector's standpoint (unlike the A/B versions which are much more so).
If staples like dual lands were mass printed in any set, the Unlimited and Revised versions would absolutely plummet in value, particularly because some people would actually prefer black bordered cards in the new ugly frame over white bordered cards in the old frame. In fact, if Power 9 were reprinted, the Unlimited versions would likely also drop precipitously in value.
This can be either good or bad depending on your point of view. Certainly, one of the benefits is lowering the cost of entry into the format, which is exactly why we're complaining about the Reserved List. But it is highly inaccurate to suggest that a mass reprint would not devalue existing versions. Only Alpha and Beta versions seem to be largely "immune" to decreased value as a result of reprinting, and that's because for collectors who want specifically those editions, a reprinting doesn't really increase the relevant supply.
Yeah, just like Unlimited version Psionic blast didn't tank after TSP reprint... oh wait.Quote:
Originally Posted by nwong
Revised duals would drop in price if reprint (which won't happen) occurred, there's really no need to say something you think other argument party wants to hear - and which of course isn't true. Lets be realistic, people want reprint to drop the prices. There just can't be situation where mass reprint happens and you both satisfy people that "invested" in old staples, and those that want cheap buy-in into format.
Unless the new card would get a really ugly picture...Quote:
Originally Posted by Pippin
Like "Playtest-card-ugly"
Plummet is a broad word that could mean anything. Are you asking if I think they will go down, read my post. By plummet do mean be worth nothing then absolutely not, you still have revised duals. What's your point? Alpha and beta duals I assume are more collectable and sought after then revised duals and no I don't think they will go down much. Most of the argument for not reprinting is due to "collectors" collections "plummeting" if certain cards are reprinted which I don't think is the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by say no to scurvy
Old cards will still be old and wanted regardless of what wizards prints.
So you're saying you'd pay $100 for a revised underground sea instead of an M13 or whatever Sea that costs $5 because the picture is ugly on the cheap one? I'd gladly play a card who's art is drawn by my 3 year old brother in crayon if it meant I had almost $100 in my pocket.Quote:
Originally Posted by BWM
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymos
I'd definetely go for the one with a picture. Also, the revised ones will probably go down a little in price...
That being said, when duals would get reprinted, i'd get an extra set, I hate proxying and for the same reason I want Wasteland reprinted too...
As a European, I obviously don't really care about dollars, but as a magic collector I don't either. I looked at SCG's buylist last weekend and realized that if I sold every card I never use (and am not planning to use in the near future) I'd get 5000 dollars.
So once again this argument comes down to "I'd love to make the the entry barrier to the format lower but I don't want the prices of my shit to drop at all so I don't lose money ZoMG!!111!!" vs. "I actually want more people to be able to buy into the format and don't particularly care if the value of my collection drops somewhat."
I belong to the second camp, because I don't believe the bullshit argument of "I paid exhorbitant prices (which I shouldn't of had to pay in the first place) for my *insert staple here* so everybody else should have to too." Yeah, duals will drop. Who gives a shit? They should never have reached the prices they have recently. It's positively stupid. I would love to be able to buy seas for $55 again, even if it means the ones I have are no longer $100+. The only reason the reserved list exists is to protect penny-pinching, card-hoarding, money-whoring collectors who themselves don't care about the health of the game. Unfortunately, we're stuck with both it (the list) and them (collectors) for the foreseeable future.
/rant
Thats the trouble with a COLLECTABLE card game. There are people who collect the cards like baseball cards and for the most part spend more money on the game at least in wizards retail market than players do. The do not reprint list was created to protect those collectors investment and there investment is no less important than the players. Its easy as a player to say fuck collectors, but if you actually owned the cards you wouldnt like to have your investment go down the tubes because some 16 year old with a paper route cant afford a lotus. Functional cards have been printed for those who dont want to shell out money on the older cards. The shock lands are the same as duals, if you dont want to take two damage well then shut up amd put out for the duals because funtionally the cards are the same. If i need trops i can pay seven bucks apiece for breeding pools that function the same as a dual land.
A thousand times THIS. I would much rather go to bigger events and play an awesome format than sit around and enjoy my expensive collection by myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
Wow. Also, players keep the game alive, not collectors, so collectors should have very little say in what happens to Magic; in fact, collectors should be grateful to the players.Quote:
Originally Posted by warallthetimne