The September 20th 2011 Banned / Restricted List Update Reaction Thread

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Originally Posted by The Wolf

Maybe I'm out of it right now, but I don't remember some long combo winter before misteps printing. That card was beyond boring to play with and against. WOTC gets +1 from me

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There wasn't. It just seems like some people have forgotten that cards like Spell Pierce exist. It's generally much harder to build blue decks when you no longer have FoW 2.0, because you need to use more narrow and answers instead, so I understand all the panicking.

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Originally Posted by kikoo

There wasn't. It just seems like some people have forgotten that cards like Spell Pierce exist. It's generally much harder to build blue decks when you no longer have FoW 2.0, because you need to use more narrow and answers instead, so I understand all the panicking.

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Even decks packing those spells + Counterbalance can still easily lose to storm.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

- Yep...

I guess I don't understand why some insist on making sure Goblins is a viable deck. Old Theshold lists with Mystic Enforcers are no longer viable. Why would we expect every deck to continue to be viable? Isn't that the very definition of stagnation?

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Your sarcasm detector is broken.

Anyways, I have no idea why people are crying so much about the return of Tide. It's not like the deck kills on turn 1-2 or is amazing against all forms of disruption or something. The deck always has gotten shit on by Hymn.dec, although it is very good against midrange and slow blue decks. Decks like Junk and Eva Green (which may return with Misstep gone) are much better against Tide than they are against TES/ANT. Team America and other aggressive tempo decks shit on all of them. Not to mention they all lose to Counterbalance - I don't really see what people are complaining about.

EDIT: Tide has an uber consistent turn 4 kill (and occasional t3). It is definitely possible to race the deck with fast draws out of Goblins, Zoo, and sometimes even Merfolk. The same can't really be said about Ad Nauseam based storm combo, but those decks are somewhat less consistent and easier to disrupt, which makes up for the speed differential.

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Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar

Your sarcasm detector is broken.

Anyways, I have no idea why people are crying so much about the return of Tide. It's not like the deck kills on turn 1-2 or is amazing against all forms of disruption or something. The deck always has gotten shit on by Hymn.dec, although it is very good against midrange and slow blue decks. Decks like Junk and Eva Green (which may return with Misstep gone) are much better against Tide than they are against TES/ANT. Team America and other aggressive tempo decks shit on all of them. Not to mention they all lose to Counterbalance - I don't really see what people are complaining about.

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- Many are claiming that CounterTop is a bad deck.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Even decks packing those spells + Counterbalance can still easily lose to storm.

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Any deck can lose to any other deck given the right circumstances. You will be heavily favored against storm though, most likely. I've lost to Zoo playing TES a number of times, despite how favored the matchup is (for example). Shit happens.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

- Many are claiming that CounterTop is a bad deck.

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That's because it had fallen out of favor before Misstep, due to a number of factors. GSZ and all the G/X midrange decks associated with it, along with CB-resistant combo decks (see Forgemaster, SNT, NO, Sneak Attack, etc.) and large numbers of Vial decks were all heavily played. Personally, I think that a Thopters shell with Mystic + Batterskull and an Enlightened Tutor toolbox could be the nuts in the new metagame, as it has countermagic, CB/Top, and plenty of answers and lock pieces for both aggro and combo matchups.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Even decks packing those spells + Counterbalance can still easily lose to storm.

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You must really suck at CounterBalance to be this bent out of shape worrying about Storm dominating everything. You know, like it did before Misstep. Oh wait...

Find a way to say this shit without flaming. -zilla

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

I guess I don't understand why some insist on making sure Goblins is a viable deck. Old Theshold lists with Mystic Enforcers are no longer viable. Why would we expect every deck to continue to be viable? Isn't that the very definition of stagnation?

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This.

It's not a problem when a red deck with almost the same maindeck can be Tier1-1.5 for 4-5 years. It's not a problem when an aggro players dream artifact which shuts down any blue based control deck gets printed (aether ehm ehm...), but it's the format's end when blue finally gets an answer and control decks start existing again.

Given time people would have adjusted. I was trying to get back into Magic for years with Legacy but the trio of aggro, combo, aggro-control and lack of real control decks was putting me off. With Mental Misstep the format was fun and balanced for me and I started playing again. With Mental Misttep gone I find it difficult to find a deck which is both viable and suits my playstyle.

Couple this with the fact that Wizards actually succumbed to whining of blue haters and turn guys sideways people, makes me really lose interest in Magic.

If Mental Misstep gets banned (which it did) I'd like to see Aether Vial get banned too. (This comes out from frustration and I'm just writing it to get of my chest :smile:)

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Originally Posted by bilb_o

This.

It's not a problem when a red deck with almost the same maindeck can be Tier1-1.5 for 4-5 years. It's not a problem when an aggro players dream artifact which shuts down any blue based control deck gets printed (aether ehm ehm...), but it's the format's end when blue finally gets an answer and control decks start existing again.

Given time people would have adjusted. I was trying to get back into Magic for years with Legacy but the trio of aggro, combo, aggro-control and lack of real control decks was putting me off. With Mental Misstep the format was fun and balanced for me and I started playing again. With Mental Misttep gone I find it difficult to find a deck which is both viable and suits my playstyle.

Couple this with the fact that Wizards actually succumbed to whining of blue haters and turn guys sideways people, makes me really lose interest in Magic.

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I feel like this will be falling on deaf ears, but a format with 80% blue decks and almost no aggro OR combo is not "balanced."

Admiral_Arzar,

It's true I'm a bit heated about the ban but I think I'll still be able to participate in analytical discussion :). Zoo and Merfolk was quite viable and amongst the top decks, Maverick was quite strong in Europe and pulling quite a few tournament wins. Why would you say that aggro was non existent in MM meta? SCG circuits and SCG Opens meta only represents local American meta.

And even in SCG combo wasn't non existent. Hive Mind was doing good but yes I agree that overall combo was underrepresented. Still the meta could have adjusted.

Now my only viable option for control will be Counterbalance. Even with Mental Misstep there were at least 3 viable very different aggro archetypes (Zoo, Merfolk, Maverick).

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Originally Posted by bilb_o

Admiral_Arzar,

It's true I'm a bit heated about the ban but I think I'll still be able to participate in analytical discussion :). Zoo and Merfolk was quite viable and amongst the top decks, Maverick was quite strong in Europe and pulling quite a few tournament wins. Why would you say that aggro was non existent in MM meta? SCG circuits and SCG Opens meta only represents local American meta.

And even in SCG combo wasn't non existent. Hive Mind was doing good but yes I agree that overall combo was underrepresented. Still the meta could have adjusted.

Now my only viable option for control will be Counterbalance. Even with Mental Misstep there were at least 3 viable very different aggro archetypes (Zoo, Merfolk, Maverick).

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The meta had degerated into a bunch of blue decks with similar shells that just had different means of winning, and natural predators of those decks (Maverick, Dredge, Zoo). Zoo wasn't even doing well against most of the blue decks (except Merfolk, of course) but was being played anyway. Hive Mind hasn't done particularly well since the first month or two it was around, and other combo (unless you count NO RUG as combo, which is incorrect - it's really a hybrid of all three archetypes) was basically dead. Note that Hive Mind plays a very similar shell to the blue decks - it just has combo pieces in place of creatures and more library manipulation. Aggro was present, but it wasn't winning much, despite the fact that it's supposed to be good against blue. Fast combo was basically dead, as were a lot of midrange archetypes that weren't blue.

It is unfortunate that slow control will recede back into the shadows - but I would rather have a balance of different aggro, midrange, and combo decks in their place. Counterbalance will be here, and honestly, traditional slow control decks haven't been viable in Legacy for years before Misstep, due to a variety of factors that are outside the scope of this thread. Personally, I would much rather have a format with 20+ different distinct viable decks, and a lack of a predictable meta (as opposed to the same half dozen decks continually). I enjoyed post-survival, pre-misstep Legacy more than any other format, simply because so many different decks were viable and winning. I mean sure, a format in so much flux sucks for the people who like everything nailed down so they can try and beat everything with metagaming. I prefer diversity, and I'd rather not know what I'm playing against next than know I'll be playing against the same few blue decks every round.

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Originally Posted by bilb_o

Admiral_Arzar,

It's true I'm a bit heated about the ban but I think I'll still be able to participate in analytical discussion :). Zoo and Merfolk was quite viable and amongst the top decks, Maverick was quite strong in Europe and pulling quite a few tournament wins. Why would you say that aggro was non existent in MM meta? SCG circuits and SCG Opens meta only represents local American meta.

And even in SCG combo wasn't non existent. Hive Mind was doing good but yes I agree that overall combo was underrepresented. Still the meta could have adjusted.

Now my only viable option for control will be Counterbalance. Even with Mental Misstep there were at least 3 viable very different aggro archetypes (Zoo, Merfolk, Maverick).

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BUG Standstill will also be a real deck after Liliana hit the format imho. In general however control and midrange got shafted pretty hard.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

BUG Standstill will also be a real deck after Liliana hit the format imho. In general however control and BLUE midrange got shafted pretty hard.

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Fixed that for you. The Misstep ban is good news for B/G/x decks like Junk, Eva Green, etc.

Maybe when they return to New Phyrexia, we'll get something like this:

Brain Fart
Instant
{PU}
Counter target Instant or Sorcery spell with converted mana cost 1

and everyone can be happy! Aggro doesn't get nerfed, Vial is safe, and everyone gets some combo hate. Who wants to play against combo anyway?? If I wanted to watch some nerd masturbate, I'd get on Omegle.

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Originally Posted by CorpT

You must really suck at CounterBalance to be this bent out of shape worrying about Storm dominating everything. You know, like it did before Misstep. Oh wait...

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- Oh look, a personal attack. Lemme guess, you're either still in high school or just got into college? Damn kids lmao, but nice try. ;)

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Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar

Any deck can lose to any other deck given the right circumstances. You will be heavily favored against storm though, most likely. I've lost to Zoo playing TES a number of times, despite how favored the matchup is (for example). Shit happens.

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- Unless I got the nuts draw, my deck could consistently lose to storm due to how fast they can go off. The only reason storm isn't a huge threat is because it's hard to play compared to a CBT deck.

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That's because it had fallen out of favor before Misstep, due to a number of factors. GSZ and all the G/X midrange decks associated with it, along with CB-resistant combo decks (see Forgemaster, SNT, NO, Sneak Attack, etc.) and large numbers of Vial decks were all heavily played. Personally, I think that a Thopters shell with Mystic + Batterskull and an Enlightened Tutor toolbox could be the nuts in the new metagame, as it has countermagic, CB/Top, and plenty of answers and lock pieces for both aggro and combo matchups.

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- I can expect that sort of deck to pop up. Gotta go get me some SFM and batterskulls and try and make it.

Wizards is obviously solving their problem of not truly playtesting cards before printing by banning. They're supplementing actual testing and design with the use of the BanHammer; what a horrible practice.

Honestly, I'm not sure if Wizards actually knows what they're doing when it comes to Eternal Formats. I honestly feel like we needed more time. They just printed the damn card. Just because some player can't play their same 75 from 1996 doesn't mean a card needs to get banned.

I'm honestly thinking there should be a council running the show, like in EDH. Legacy players know what needs to be banned, and what doesn't. I think that'd be a much better system then Wizards derdling around and continually banning cards because some noob can't play Goblins from five years ago.

-Matt

Is it healthy to play versus 4 NO RUG and 2 Stoneblade decks in 6 rounds of Swiss? I don't think it is.

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias

Is it healthy to play versus 4 NO RUG and 2 Stoneblade decks in 6 rounds of Swiss? I don't think it is.

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that sounds like a 6-0 day to me. =)

Gheizen64,
I'm not confident about BUG landstill, I think it will be crushed by both merfolk and goblins in general.

Admiral_Arzar,
When you are talking about certain decks being natural predators of certain others and existing just because of that, it doesn't sound much different from non MM meta. With mental misstep combo was underrepresented, without it control is underrepresented. "More diversity" from a specific point of view doesn't mean a healthy balanced format. There are players who enjoy different aspects of the game as well, which are (and were for a long time, hence my reason for not getting back into Magic 'till this summer) missing in Legacy.

By different aspects I don't mean "beating everything with metagaming", I'm mostly a casual player (who happens to stick playing within format boundaries). I just like control decks and this comes from having started playing Draw-Go then Counter Phoenix than Forbiddian for some years. Not because they were the best decks of their time nor because blue beats everything.

That's why I still feel like allowing aggro people toy with their selected color (Vial Elves, Vial Goblins, Vial Merfolks) and not allowing control people toy with their selected colors (UW Stoneforge, BUG Landstill) shows the approach of Wizards clearly. Which means they will accept imbalance towards certain play styles over others.

When was the magical time when control was not represented that everyone thinks existed before Mental Misstep where apparently aggro and combo were the only playable decks?

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Originally Posted by bilb_o

That's why I still feel like allowing aggro people toy with their selected color (Vial Elves, Vial Goblins, Vial Merfolks) and not allowing control people toy with their selected colors (UW Stoneforge, BUG Landstill) shows the approach of Wizards clearly. Which means they will accept imbalance towards certain play styles over others.

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- Translation: Wizards likes aggro decks and doesn't like control or combo. I present Modern as my evidence.

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Originally Posted by CorpT

When was the magical time when control was not represented that everyone thinks existed before Mental Misstep where apparently aggro and combo were the only playable decks?

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Since Landstill fell out of favor and CounterTop decks were really aggro/control mid-rangish decks?