At least at Grand Prixs, playeres are required to sign a contract for playing in Day2. It's mostly about the Pro Players Club etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by mindovermatt
Printable View
At least at Grand Prixs, playeres are required to sign a contract for playing in Day2. It's mostly about the Pro Players Club etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by mindovermatt
I could almost sympathize with sloppy play after 20 rounds of mtg or whatever. But not fessing up after drawing a pre-boarded card or trying to weasel out of a warning? Come on. He might as well say "I've got this thing, and it's f--king golden."
Oh, I forgot to add... If Kiebler and the other commentators didn't notice the cheats on the video I can't fault them. They are enjoying the game they are watching and focusing on solving the puzzles when they are commenting. They are not like "ok this Merfolk is player is dead, I'd bring back another Kira if I were him" they are more like "if he activates Jace and then the scroll but if he stifles..." whatever. I can fault the judges however. They are there to look out for these things and to concentrate on the game so that each player can focus on their own game instead of what their opponent might be up to each and every second. During my own turn I'd rather be looking at my own cards instead of my opponent's deck and board to see if there are extra cards being drawn or put on.
Is this a joke? You, the player, are the first and best defense against cheats. Not a judge, not a spectator, not a commentator. Judges explicitly do not "concentrate on the game" - that's your job.Quote:
Originally Posted by bilb_o
There is a judge at the table for SCG's video feature matches, but that judge is being employed as a spotter - communicating life totals and other information to the coverage crew. That judge necessarily has less attention on the match than either the players or the spectators.
Floor judges are answering judge calls and performing other duties, not watching any particular match.
Bertoncini was not caught primarily because his opponents were swayed by his nice-guy personality and either didn't pay attention enough to notice shady stuff or didn't call a judge like they should have when they did.
Another suspect on-camera occurrence at an SCG Open, this time involving the man ranked right behind Alex Bertoncini (if I'm not mistaken) in total SCG Open points, Edgar Flores:
http://blip.tv/scglive/scgkc-leg-rd3...n-zona-5701810
Edgar is on the play and didn't mulligan. Once he begins his second turn (after having played a land on turn one), you can clearly see seven cards in his grip when he fans them out before drawing for the turn, seven again once he plays another land, and six after playing Stoneforge Mystic.
This is blaming the victim. Players have a ton of stuff to keep track of while playing; they should not be expected to catch every sleight of hand or underhanded cheat at the same time. It's simply a ridiculous expectation. There is a certain amount of trust that players bring to the game, yes they should be maintaining the game state, but nowhere in the rules are they expected to maintain the game state by seeing through all manner of deliberate cheats which elude even experienced professional players commentating the match.Quote:
Originally Posted by cdr
There are so many places where a player can eke out an advantage and abuse your trust (draw an extra card? play an extra land drop? finagle a complex interaction? "forget" a trigger? stall? abuse a shortcut?), to catch them all it would be nearly impossible to focus on your OWN game. And to wit, even if you do catch something, it's almost always explained away by "a play mistake". And yes, you'd be reluctant to say it was cheating if you weren't sure.
That's abusing the psychology of players and an abuse of the game. It's the tournament's and the judge's responsibility to notice these patterns (from the few times the players DO notice) and take appropriate action. That is, in fact, one of their major responsibilities- to create a play environment where everyone isn't constantly worried that their opponents are trying to cheat them. It's not that judges and organizers should be perfect, but after years of serial cheating and much of it on video, they should be expected to act when it is brought to their attention.
However, I don't think the problem is going away until Magic goes purely digital. There is too much scope for easy cheating in the game because of its rules complexity (unlike, say, chess) and players are heavily incentivized to cheat because of lax enforcement and the possibility of explaining away cheating easily.
This is patently wrong. Its actually explicitly in the rules that both players need to maintain the game state. That's why the non-offending player can get in trouble for failure to maintain. The fact is that people just didn't want to believe that a nice guy who is a top player is a cheat. It happens. It's one of the reasons I quit YGO back in the day, cheating was rampant, and it didn't have a good judge community to assist when called out. Players need to be less scared to call judges and that is the core problem. Any casual/non-pro player, if they are being honest, would be hesitant to call a judge on a well known player. I admit myself, if I sat down across from someone like LSV and I thought he played an extra land, I would for sure give the benefit of the doubt. That's part of the reason I feel that Saito got cracked down on so hard. Because no one outside of some judges was ever calling him on it, they just complained online. If players more actively called judges when something was suspect, players this shady would never get this far.Quote:
Originally Posted by FieryBalrog
TL;DR, if you suspect anything at all, call a judge, that's what they are there for, and a judge will never get mad if you called them to verify a game state.
I know that. I explicitly mentioned it. The problem is the game is played with a certain degree of implicit trust between the players, like golf is. This is because there is so much scope for abuse and so much hassle and difficulty in trying to detect every possible abuse, not to mention you have to be a bit of a dick while doing so. Which is exactly why Bertoncini (and others) got away with it for so long, because simply dumping the responsibility on the players doesn't work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kruchkow
It shouldn't be. At least not when money is on the line. If you wanna relax at the kitchen table thats fine. But at the high levels, especially wit so much on the line like with the starcity events, you need to be on the ball. Simply knowing what turn it is and how many cards your opponent has in hand would solve like 75% of it. Dumping responsibility is the ONLY option, there simply aren't enough judges to watch every game, or even to follow up on every rumor or allegation. Players need to step up, thats the lesson to be learned here. Real judges don't come into your home and ask about crimes, you have to bring evidence to them. Same in magic.Quote:
Originally Posted by FieryBalrog
Send it to the DCI, but he probably just forgot to desideboard his extra card from the previous round :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTrudeau
I have a hard time concentrating on my own plays and board states and to try to keep track of my opponents Penn and Teller routine is a bit much. Magic is already mentally exhausting at times especially deep into the tournament. It's just not possible for the players alone to always be vigilant.Quote:
Originally Posted by FieryBalrog
@ Amon Amarth & others
Learn to keep your opponent in check, then. This is important. Make sure they put down 7 cards on the playing area before drawing and make sure you check. Watch them at every Brainstorm, make sure they put back two cards. By two cards I also mean making sure two cards not a quick drop of supposedly 2 cards (or 1). Cut opponents deck after EVERY shuffle. Make a point out of letting every opponent know that you are aware of what is going on. Make a point that you just want to avoid mistakes or doubts because of sloppy play. Honest players will be grateful because it will make for a better playing. Cheaters will know you are on the watch and think twice about pulling their moves on you.
Most importantly though:
You scare the opportunistic players that just wait for the inattentive player so that they can cheat them! Don't be that guy!
It is easy to fall back into the comfort zone of just slinging like at a kitchen table. Look at that "other" guy in the explore video. Would it have been so hard to just check the mana tapped by Bertoncini for the other guy? It is just 4 mana. That is not enough for 2 explore + Preordain. If something appears to be not ok, stop playing and try to reastablish what happened. That guy should have given the dude with the camera a nod for raising concern about a possible wrong board state, have a look at Bertoncini's lands and GY and then he would have quickly realized that something had been going wrong. Then he absolutely needs to call a judge! It is of the uttermost importance that EVERY mistake that you spot goes on through to a judge and will be noted as a "warning". That is the only way to catch people continously making "mistakes" in their favor.
By being a sloppy and inattentive player you let cheaters thrive and hurt not only your own sucess but also that of all other honest players by letting the cheaters have sucess! It is understandable that nobody will be able to spot every cheat every game but you should work and improve on it the same way you are working on game decisions, mulligan decision, deck tuning/building decisions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTrudeau
nice one, honest mistakes start to accumulate =)
As bad as this is, it's nothing compared to the late 90's. There was drawing extra cards, tapping mana incorrectly and the absolute *worst* which was marked cards. Like filling in little dots on the red jewel on the back of all your Nev's Disks so you'd know to Necro up to that card. Or licking your dark rituals to get them to stick to your hypnotic specters (I'm *not* *even* *kidding*).
I've met this dude briefly and I'm sure he was high, perhaps he's hitting these marathon tourneys just ripe on scrips or stoned and honestly is in a cloud the whole day. His best excuse would have been to claim drug addiction, possibly garner some sympathy, explain his behavior away, and then say he's quitting magic to go 'get clean'.
Wasn't Edgar kicked out of Yugioh for cheating? This seems like old news.Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTrudeau
Anyways, if the player community put this much effort into say David Williams getting his $20,000 vintage deck stolen at the last tournament, to the point of publicizing articles on SCG and Channelfireball, we'd all have much greater security by now.
Well it looks like he got banned until June 2013.
hmmm interesting
source?
Now its all on Starcity to see what their official report is.Quote:
Originally Posted by clavio
Success! Still a shame that he gets a 20k compensation.
Now it is time to get Mr. "I shamelessly start with 8 cards" Edgar Flores. I hope the community will not relax and pressure him too. Starting with 8 is a much less excusable way to cheat that just cant be a mistake and the Video proof is 100% without HD this time.