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I don't see this mentioned very often, but, besides aggro, Firestorm is a strong card to bring in against ANT/TES. If you read those threads at all, they are nervous about a potenial Firestorm ruining their AdN plan. As a 3-of in my board, it conveniently matches the number of Ichorids I want to side out against combo. Basically, I'm saying Firestorm is worth the space because it hits more matchups than just the creature ones.
I'm trying to understand the rationale behind this utility. Your Ad Nauseam opponent will rarely, if ever, have a creature on the table. Additionally, if you have a creature on the table, it is representing a clock, which is exactly what you need in this match-up. So in order to legitimately be able to cast Firestorm and do at least four damage to an opponent - and more than likely yourself in the process - you will require two creatures in play at minimum.Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
Now, if you're looking to Firestorm for only three (which seems relatively useless when you can just out-combo them and tear their hand apart in the process), you're both taking three damage and your creature is eating it in the process.
That seems terrible. Against Storm, I sideboard like this:
-1 Careful Study
-1 Sun Titan
-1 Ichorid
+1 Breakthrough
+1 Cabal Therapy
+1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
You don't care to hit their artifact-based mana sources, because all it does is dilute you from exploding on them first. Also, while Sun Titan has its merits in this match-up, it is not as good as Iona as after a well-timed Therapy, the card is generally game over if it hits the table. And by taking out the Study and adding the Breakthrough, you gain a measure of explosiveness that will allow you to chain deep and hit a Narcomoeba or two and perhaps strip their hand of anything relevant in the process with a full set of Therapies.
The only reason you'd cut the third Ichorid is because all you're seeking is a Dread Return on the back of a few Zombies and some Therapies to protect you. It's very elementary from there.
I don't play the GP list. I play 4 Breakthrough and 4 Therapy main, so no, I don't sideboard like that. Anyways, the combination of us attacking, if only for 2 a turn, and Firestorm, plus their fetches and City taps do add up to the point that you'll make them fizzle on AdN. Firestorm doesn't have to be the killing blow. I know it works from experience. You can try it or not.
I truly can't understand how the mentality of dredge players went from "Dread Return is a liability and casting it is the least likely event to happen" to "I want to cast two DR in the same turn." I'm just going to say it because I tried it and hated it: Flayer sucks. It's a cool way to finish the game, but is completely unnecessary - just like most DR-targets.
I don't play the GP list either, I play my own list and use my own strategy. I have considered it - and it's an awful approach. It might have worked for you once or twice in random corner-cases, but the simple fact is that LED Dredge is fast enough to race any Storm deck outright. Firestorm is specifically used to shore up aggressive strategies and not random isolated utility against a deck which could care less about getting Shocked. You care more about stripping their hand and comboing out yourself outright; the least of your worries should be trying to "sandbag" a card like Firestorm when your first and foremost priority should be getting as much business into your graveyard as quickly as possible and cast a draw spell to virtually - or literally - win you the game. Firestorm requires you to basically sit there and say, "Go" (not a tell or anything). That's a terrible approach in LED Dredge - unless you've been forced to mulligan into oblivion.Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
Firestorm used against Storm is just a bad application, I'm sorry.
By keeping a hand with Firestorm, a land, and that' s about it - you're crippled outright to a Duress or Chant. A good Storm player won't falter to such narrow utility, and will more than likely strip your hand of any prevalence turn one or two - if they don't Chant you first. Additionally, whatever it is that you're cutting to bring those cards in probably is better than Firestorm anyways, so I don't see the relevance here. How many turns are we talking about you passing here, ideally having to have a Firestorm, land, draw spell, dredger, and a few Zombies in play? In a perfect world, perhaps. Not ideally, though. Basically what you're insinuating is that you're using a very narrow strategy to catch the Storm player off guard after they've pinged themselves once or twice using pain-lands into Ad Nauseam.
Here's something you might not have known: I beat Bryant in a Jupiter Games match one time by Soul Spiking him when he least expected it off Ad Nauseam, so I understand where you're coming from (why I ever chose to play that card still baffles me to this day). However, that strategy was really no good and I was basically backed into a corner when it came to my Storm match-up with that particular deck. In LED Dredge, you don't have to worry about narrow shit like that and can just win just as fast yourself.
Again, you're generalizing. You're clustering all Dredge players to fit your one ideal. Flayer does not suck, nor do any other relevant Dread Return targets that people decide they want to try. Dredge is strong enough on its own merit that it can win outright game one, but Dread Return targets become important to cement victories and are that much more important games two and potentially three. Believe it or not, putting all the effort into winning a game one isn't as easy as you'd think; Dredge can lose game one under varying circumstances, which is why dedicating an incredibly attractive slot or two can ensure you will not lose the game by passing the turn.Quote:
I truly can't understand how the mentality of dredge players went from "Dread Return is a liability and casting it is the least likely event to happen" to "I want to cast two DR in the same turn." I'm just going to say it because I tried it and hated it: Flayer sucks.
It's a quick way to finish a game. I don't play it, but I respect its use.Quote:
It's a cool way to finish the game...
So, you're basically telling me that using a card that can create a massive amount of tokens and bring a creature with special utility - like Iona - into play against something like High Tide is unnecessary?Quote:
...but is completely unnecessary - just like most DR-targets.
Yeah...not so much.
Dread Return is - and always was - actually very good in Dredge. The problem people had with it (which is in reference to what you're saying, that people "flipped a switch on the card") is that once Faithless Looting became legal people tried stuffing tight lists together and couldn't find a proper configuration to fit the card in to their deck. The card itself is one of the most important parts to this archetype and helps not only facilitate fast combo-kills, it gives you the option as an alternative to bring in something specialized to cripple other archetypes that can match you in speed or just leave you behind in the race.
This is why when you look at the only successful variations since Faithless Looting has become legal, all of them have used Dread Return in some capacity as a critical means of success. Dread Return is a card that indicates pressure on an opponent. Even if they can by some miracle deal with the target immediately, then they are just going to get busted by a plethora of Zombies or Ichorids. The varied angles of attack are important, something you obviously fail to see in Dread Return's critical application.
I'm typing from my phone so I'm not being as articulate as I'd like to be. My whole point is that Firestorm is better than Ichorid against TES. It is not my priority to mull to find it, in any way. Firestorm is unquestionably more important for Mav. I know that as well. You may not know this, but I've been playing dredge longer than you, so please be less condescending.
Flayer is fast, but so is FKZ, which requires only one DR and players don't even use him. Flayer isn't even best at what you said he's in there to do.
You're taking these observations a little too personally. I know what DR is for, and use two of them. I use DR-targets in my board for the matches they are applicable because they're game-breaking.
FKZ still needs two bridges in the yard and can be blocked.Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
Thanks for that gem. Two Brdges are more likely to be flipped than two DR. I'm not advocating FKZ, because he is bad, just like Flayer.
The amount of nitpicking and arguing of semantics rather than legitimate points is overwhelming in this thread.
I know, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
It's especially helpful to others when people make baseless opinions with no factual evidence or numbers to support their theories. Cramming your opinions down peoples' throats on card choices and what you think is considered "optimal" with no reasoning - especially using innocuous statements - isn't going to win you points in a discussion, pal.
First off, what does your list look like, and second, what have you done with it successfully to support your claims?
Otherwise, your arguments have little weight on a topic that generally requires input other than "Card X Sucks Because I Said So."
Between Flayer of the Hatebound and Flame-Kin Zealot, I would probably choose Flayer of the Hatebound, because one extra Dread Return is easier to get when compared to two Bridge from Below. Also, Bridge from Below is much easier to deal with than an extra Dread Return. Even with Bridges gone, Flayer of the Hatebound can still win you the game - that won't be true with FKZ (In comparison, if Dread Return was missing, Cabal Therapy can still fill-in to some degree).Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
Just my two-cents.
Cheers,
jares
Unfortunately, the "Card X Sucks Because I Said So" technique happens here way too often. :frown:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Whenever that happens, I just instead choose to state that certain statements are baseless, and move on to respect other people's opinion - Circular Logic ain't too useful. :tongue:
Regards,
jares
Unfortunately jares, things like this need to be called out when they occur. Otherwise, we get cluttered with flammable material and that just isn't happening here. I'm not afraid to call people out when they state empty opinions because frankly it's just annoying and it demerits peoples' hard work, time, and energy.Quote:
Originally Posted by jares
I would expect the same criticism if I did the same thing. This is a brand new thread, so let's use numbers to support theories here.
While we're on the topic of Firestorm, I think I am going to cut mine out of the board on a trial basis. I've been on fire with my current list, and Firestorm has been generally out of the equation the whole time.
I would suggest that we all do this collectively, as this would be much more effective in enlightening people - in contrast, calling people out after heated 1-on-1 exchange might just seem like bickering, and might also defeat the purpose of trying to improve the general culture of this new thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
I second the motion! :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
I'll be looking forward to how this experiment turns out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Kind Regards,
jares
Pretty much everything Hollywood said about battling TES/ANT is correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
Ichorid is actually better than Firestorm. You want to be casting multiple draw effects and LEDs against storm decks. You do not want to be waiting around with a land untapped waiting to catch them going too low with adn. Ichorid applies quick pressure if you do not go off turn 1 or 2. In fact an ichorid will generally do as much damage as a firestorm.
@Hollywood: When sideboarding against storm decks I would take out a bridge from below instead of Sun Titan. You won't always have Iona with a dread return available quick enough. Sun Titan will likely dig 10 cards deeper, possibly hitting a critical cabal therapy.
This is my list, since you asked.
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
//Sideboard
4 Nature's Claim
3 Firestorm
3 Tarnished Citadel
1 Ichorid
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Look, the comment about Firestorm for Ichorid against TES is what I do. I also bring in the Iona, so our approaches really aren't much different. I don't take out enablers or explosive cards for it. It's usually -1 Pimp, -3 Ichorid, +1 Iona, +3 Firestorm. I'm comfortable and confident with my approach. I don't even bring in the Citadels, because, again, Firestorm isn't necessary to win, but helps.
Nice! I'll be waiting for your results! :) And thanks for the feedback by the way!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Disagreeing with 3xDread Return and Flayer of the Hatebound is only logical, if you play the 3xDread Return and Flayer of the Hatebound list Game 1 then it's obviously better than the Quad Lazer list in terms of speed, but obviously worse in terms of flexibility because reducing Ichorid from 4x to 2x and Cabal Therapy from 3x to 2x means DDDing is no longer an option. The speed vs flexibility issue aside, you also need to consider what your post-board liabilities are. Post-board Dread Return vs Tormod's Crypt effects is dead weight more often than not, so you'll have to SB out the Dread Return and Flayer of the Hatebound package a non-zero amount of the time, presumably for +2 Ichorid, +1 Cabal Therapy in addition to SBing out Lion's Eye Diamond for Lands. You are going to concede SB space, and a lot of SB space, just for a combo-kill that only increase the speed of the kill sequence and not the speed at which you win, which should really be measured in terms of Cabal Therapy eliminating the opponent's outs and forcing him into top deck mode and not in reducing him to 0 life.
Flayer of the Hatebound is "danger of cool things," because it relies on the deck resolving it's draw spells in order to facilitate the combo kill and disregards DDD as an effective means of attack. It's a deck that's based on wishful thinking and reducing your avenues to out play your opponent thru' play skill because 1 Swords to Plowshares turns of your most important engine of Ichorid/Bridge in DDD mode.
You still fail to recognise a few things:
I've never seen a list with 3 Therapies to start with. I've seen more with 4 Therapies, than with 3 Therapies though.
3 Ichorids main is the way to go in Flayer lists, for the reasons you mentioned. You don't have to play Ichorid in your board then, too.
Tormod's Crypt was imo never a relevant card against us and should not be used for reasoning, because a toddler can defeat a double crypt board with dredge.
Edit: I agree though, that it seems very danger of cool things-ish.
Still, it is a way safer and easier to assemble combo kill than FKZ, which in about 30 times I cast DR for it failed to kill 17 times. Not optimal. With Flayer my results are a bit better, fizzling the kill exactly zero times. Note both situations are when the DR SHOULD be lethal.
Bridge from Below is the engine that generates tokens for you so you can setup a lethal alpha-strike or just have tokens in general to attack with. I would advise against that, as you want to be able to get as many creatures in play as possible and Bridge is what makes that possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
Sun Titan is fine to keep in, but it really doesn't make a whole bit of difference if you resolve this, an Iona, or a huge Troll into play. You're probably going to win the game the following turn regardless. I can see the merits of keeping him in, but it shouldn't matter all that much.
I wouldn't touch the Bridges, though.
Bridge does not help too much. Unless you are going for the FKZ kill, having 4 zombies in play rather than 6 zombies or 6 rather than 9 does not matter too much. The reason is because if you are passing the turn then you can alpha strike with ichorid and some dread return goodie. If you feel bridge is some sort of sacred cow then cut one Pimp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Do not cut Sun Titan in this match! Generally you will have something like half your deck milled on turn two, against storm.decks. I am not a math wizard or anything, but this means Iona will be in your graveyard 50% of the time on your critical turn against storm.decks. Having a second dread return target increases your chance of having a revenant dread return on your critical turn by something like 25%?(somebody better at math than me please confirm this). So having Sun Titan available will you dig 8-12 cards deeper when you don't hit Iona quick enough. Those extra 10 cards on average can hit another crucial cabal therapy or Iona herself.
When I say keep Sun Titan, it is not preference. It is an outright mistake taking him out in this matchup.
You're right.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer