[Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Finn

Benie, I fooled with this enough to echo the problems you faced concerning opposing counterspells. It is a big problem. I found that I could safely use all five colors though, and I just used Raven's Crime to rip their hands apart. I, too had to stop using the RIP kill though. It is a tough call, but at the least, you can swap out RIP for Crime when facing blue.

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Wow, and I'm uncertain about my 2-colour manabase. I would like to see that list.

I have tried Raven's Crime in a build, but it was never what I wanted. In my testing it was to slow and to dependent to much on Land Tax. I had the choice in controlling the board or the handsize and more often then not I ended up doing them both half. I'm no trying to fight blue with more threads and Red Elemental Blast in the side. With Rest in Peace out of the MD I could try Raven's Crime again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

Why are you playing Land Tax with wasteland? Make a white prison deck with Chalice with that mana base.

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I was talking about a Stax build with Land Tax. With Stax Crucible of Worlds seems an auto-include. Adding Wasteland wouldn't be a bad idea.

Note that I don't play a Stax build, nor am I building one, but this is probably where I start.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

This got posted at Everyday Eternal

List by Sean O'Brien (aka the Nether Void guy):
[Business] [35]
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Humility
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminus
2 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Trading Post
1 Rest in Peace
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant
2 Armageddon
3 Scroll Rack
4 Land Tax
4 Burning Wish

[Mana Sources] [25]
4 Mox Diamond
1 Karakas
4 Arid Mesa
3 Marsh Flats
3 Plateau
9 Plains
1 Mountain

[Sideboard] [15]
1 Pithing Needle
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Boiling Seas
1 Shattering Spree
1 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Tremor
1 Pyroclasm
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ruination
1 Red Sun’s Zenith
1 Tariff
1 Cataclysm


It's rough but it emphasizes Burning Wish, something that I have discussed at MTGSalvation mirror thread before. Hopefully we hear more from him about this.

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This seems like a build that's awesome on paper but awful in real. But it's a list that isn't tested properly, so it might work. If I got time I proxy it up and test it.

@ Pelikanudo
I thought you where building a Burning Wish version. How did it end up, what do you think of the list?

.Bb>

@Benie...from memory, and not a clear one at that:

9 Plains
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Buried Ruin
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Lotus Vale
3 City of Traitors

4 Mox Diamond
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Scroll Rack
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pithing Needle
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Rest in Peace
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Humility
1 Blood Moon
1 Trinishpere
2 Argivian Find
3 Terminus
4 Land Tax
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Burning Wish


side
1 Terminus
1 Planar Birth
1 Raven's Crime
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Gamble
1 Vindicate
1 Conflagrate
1 Regrowth
1 Life from the Loam
4 Orim's Chant
2 Trinisphere


I spent far too long trying to remember this. I doubt it is exact. But the idea with Raven's Crime should seem evident. They have to counter the Wish, which players are typically unwilling to do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Finn

@Benie...from memory, and not a clear one at that:

9 Plains
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Buried Ruin
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Lotus Vale
3 City of Traitors

4 Mox Diamond
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Scroll Rack
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pithing Needle
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Rest in Peace
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Humility
1 Blood Moon
1 Trinishpere
2 Argivian Find
3 Terminus
4 Land Tax
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Burning Wish


side
1 Terminus
1 Planar Birth
1 Raven's Crime
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Gamble
1 Vindicate
1 Conflagrate
1 Regrowth
1 Life from the Loam
4 Orim's Chant
2 Trinisphere


I spent far too long trying to remember this. I doubt it is exact. But the idea with Raven's Crime should seem evident. They have to counter the Wish, which players are typically unwilling to do.

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List full idea's. I like it. It looks very light on win-conditions though and quite dependant on Burning Wish in quite some matchups. As former Landstill player I countered Burning Wish almost every time, because of Dredge cards and retrace. I will try to incorperate some things into a list of my own. You don't have a solid win-condition once someone kills your Rest in Peace (it exiles itself.)

I did test the Sean O'brien list and had mixed feelings about it. The split between Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares seems always to end in my disadvantage; I got the Swords to Plowshares when the opponent had a planeswalker and Lightning Bolt when I was facing a Tarmogoyf.

Bonfire of the Damned and Trading Post where just to bad, those will be the first cards to cut. The winconditions where to slow for my taste. I would like to have a Batterskull in there somewhere. The Armageddons where quite solid though. A must counter against control decks, but sometimes I had problems controlling the board beforehand.

This is the list I'm testing now:


3 City of Traitors
1 Mountain
12 Plains
2 Plateau

3 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Diamond
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Argivian Find
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Land Tax
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Scroll Rack
1 Blood Moon
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Goblin Charbelcher
2 Humility
2 Batterskull
4 Terminus

Sideboard
1 Enlightened Tutor
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Rest in Peace
1 Trinisphere
1 Karmic Justice
1 Rule of Law
1 Aura of Silence
1 Nevermore
4 Leyline of Sanctity


Alot of things I abandoned earlier. Not at al sure of the list, but it ends up doing fairly well against blue decks now. Lotus Petal does a good job fighting Daze and allows me to hit bombs earlier, it has a slight edge over Chrome Mox now. Argivian Find gives me 6 win-condition's main, which makes it a little easier to land them. Batterskull seems better then Elspeth, Knight-Errant, putting a faster clock on an opponent and lifelink helps alot. Also the fact that I can tutor for it huge. Goblin Charbelcher is still a bit shaky, but gets there eventually.

Tormod's Crypt will probably become a Rest in Peace in the main, and the Enlightened Tutor in the sideboard Grafdigger's Cage.

.Bb>

I also want to add that Goblin Charbelcher resets your Scroll Rack which is an okay interaction.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Benie Bederios

Wow, and I'm uncertain about my 2-colour manabase. I would like to see that list.

I have tried Raven's Crime in a build, but it was never what I wanted. In my testing it was to slow and to dependent to much on Land Tax. I had the choice in controlling the board or the handsize and more often then not I ended up doing them both half. I'm no trying to fight blue with more threads and Red Elemental Blast in the side. With Rest in Peace out of the MD I could try Raven's Crime again.



I was talking about a Stax build with Land Tax. With Stax Crucible of Worlds seems an auto-include. Adding Wasteland wouldn't be a bad idea.

Note that I don't play a Stax build, nor am I building one, but this is probably where I start.



This seems like a build that's awesome on paper but awful in real. But it's a list that isn't tested properly, so it might work. If I got time I proxy it up and test it.

@ Pelikanudo
I thought you where building a Burning Wish version. How did it end up, what do you think of the list?

.Bb>

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That B. Wish List seems awfull to me, but the concept is moreless the same as mine when trying to build a B.Wish list, anyway that b.wish has the same problem as we face when we try to win Control Blue decks, I can warranty that if you build that list with 6 REB effects you will loose to those Blue Control decks anyway so I left to playing that kind of approaches.

Now I'm testing the Stax approach with:
- Cataclism
- Trinisphere

And it is beeing interesting the results vs control decks, I agree with the amount of permanents and the direction of the deck if we play Cataclism base, but it Works!

A Trinisphere followed by a Cataclism is almost gg-> I've won to Elves Decks because of this even!

this link will give you an idea of the deck (No chalice, less lands, full of S.Rack and full of trini):
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...4&iddeck=68831

Question:

Do you know boys any kind of creature that:
- Is indestructible or like - protection or can be recouped anyway
- Is White or artifact
- can do damage to creatures or destroy them

I mean I'm looking for a thing that kills creatures once cataclism is casted.
I've been thinking in Man Lands as you can convert the man land in creature whn casting Cataclism and next mar the land as creature and other as land.
Or any kind of legandary creature - bounced by Karakas

Ideas:
The one creature that can be bounced for free Spirit Blink I think
Mother of runes maybe
The artifact that can be converted in a creature when tapping lands
Ivory gargoyle maybe???

Another approach is using things like charbelcher or Terminus to kill those creatures

Another point related to Oblivion ring - Cataclism interaction:
you can use your oblivion on an permanet YOU own if you think youre going to play cataclism, or just simply keep it on hand. it is just a matter of knowing what to do with this.

I'll post my list soon... No much time...

Mangara and Karakas? Seems bad because you cant recast the Mangara immediately and it seems like you dont really want to be doing that in this deck

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pelikanudo

A Trinisphere followed by a Cataclism is almost gg-> I've won to Elves Decks because of this even!

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WHO KNEW! Resolve Trinisphere then resolve Cataclism [sic], win the game!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

WHO KNEW! Resolve Trinisphere then resolve Cataclism [sic], win the game!

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YES , and now imagine you have also L.Tax and a Creature Destroyer!

@Megadeus
Maybe Kjeldoran Outpost, the return of Swords to my Main maybe?
I need something to:
- destroy creatures or bounce maybe.
- has sinergy with cataclism
- if posible to be a creature or man land or enchantment convertible in creature or artifact convertible in creature.

I though in mangara also... I dont think Plain Creatures are going to be the key...

Something around this....

@Bennie:
It may be seem strange to some, but the fact is that with Land Tax you DO not need crucible, the fact is that you must play Crucible OR land tax, these 2 cards serves the same role in this deck, I faced a Stax deck and that stax deck was not able to overcome with his crucible, my land tax was better, we even both landed stax...
and related to wasteland, I think can be ok, but it is not needed, just put more nedles.

@ Pelikanudo's creature dilemma:

Have you ever considered Luminarch Ascension? Think about it, if you resolve a Cataclysm and had a means to get rid of your opponent's creature, your opponent probably won't be dealing damage to you, hence you're gonna be ramping your Luminarch Ascension.

Also, you can use Thalia. She's gonna be a removal target but having her in your "Cataclysm pile" could help you more.

Speaking of Cataclysm piles, what are some good one. Land Tax + Scroll Rack and Land Tax + Trinisphere are a given.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pelikanudo

That B. Wish List seems awfull to me, but the concept is moreless the same as mine when trying to build a B.Wish list, anyway that b.wish has the same problem as we face when we try to win Control Blue decks, I can warranty that if you build that list with 6 REB effects you will loose to those Blue Control decks anyway so I left to playing that kind of approaches.

Now I'm testing the Stax approach with:
- Cataclism
- Trinisphere

And it is beeing interesting the results vs control decks, I agree with the amount of permanents and the direction of the deck if we play Cataclism base, but it Works!

A Trinisphere followed by a Cataclism is almost gg-> I've won to Elves Decks because of this even!

this link will give you an idea of the deck (No chalice, less lands, full of S.Rack and full of trini):
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...4&iddeck=68831

Question:

Do you know boys any kind of creature that:
- Is indestructible or like - protection or can be recouped anyway
- Is White or artifact
- can do damage to creatures or destroy them

I mean I'm looking for a thing that kills creatures once cataclism is casted.
I've been thinking in Man Lands as you can convert the man land in creature whn casting Cataclism and next mar the land as creature and other as land.
Or any kind of legandary creature - bounced by Karakas

Ideas:
The one creature that can be bounced for free Spirit Blink I think
Mother of runes maybe
The artifact that can be converted in a creature when tapping lands
Ivory gargoyle maybe???

Another approach is using things like charbelcher or Terminus to kill those creatures

Another point related to Oblivion ring - Cataclism interaction:
you can use your oblivion on an permanet YOU own if you think youre going to play cataclism, or just simply keep it on hand. it is just a matter of knowing what to do with this.

I'll post my list soon... No much time...

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There is always Eternal Dragon. If you want it cheaper it looks that Batterskull got some potential too. In Angel Stompy I always used Razor Golem but that card seems terribly weak without equipments.

If nothing else works I suppose you can always play 4Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and 4 StoneForge Mystics.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pelikanudo

YES , and now imagine you have also L.Tax and a Creature Destroyer!

@Megadeus
Maybe Kjeldoran Outpost, the return of Swords to my Main maybe?
I need something to:
- destroy creatures or bounce maybe.
- has sinergy with cataclism
- if posible to be a creature or man land or enchantment convertible in creature or artifact convertible in creature.

I though in mangara also... I dont think Plain Creatures are going to be the key...

Something around this....

@Bennie:
It may be seem strange to some, but the fact is that with Land Tax you DO not need crucible, the fact is that you must play Crucible OR land tax, these 2 cards serves the same role in this deck, I faced a Stax deck and that stax deck was not able to overcome with his crucible, my land tax was better, we even both landed stax...
and related to wasteland, I think can be ok, but it is not needed, just put more nedles.

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Yeah, but sometimes you want the cheap wins with Waste-lock. Or want to keep Smokestack on the table with an empty board on the other side. In a deck that already plays Enlightened Tutor Crucible of World is always a potnential slot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

@ Pelikanudo's creature dilemma:

Have you ever considered Luminarch Ascension? Think about it, if you resolve a Cataclysm and had a means to get rid of your opponent's creature, your opponent probably won't be dealing damage to you, hence you're gonna be ramping your Luminarch Ascension.

Also, you can use Thalia. She's gonna be a removal target but having her in your "Cataclysm pile" could help you more.

Speaking of Cataclysm piles, what are some good one. Land Tax + Scroll Rack and Land Tax + Trinisphere are a given.

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Germ, Batterskull, Humility, although a little overkill. But it can work if the opponent has a full board. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Scroll Rack Land Tax.

.Bb>

@@ B.B and NamelessOne

Version 1.3 Parfait With Cataclism:

(1.2 was with Replenish , ow added a 2nd P.Nodes -> P.N is performing incredibly well in here)
(1.0 was with No B.Skull and Yes Story Circle - 1.2 Now P.N.)


4 Mox Diamond
4 Scroll Rack
4 Trinisphere
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 L.Tax
1 Zuran Orb
2 Porphyr Nodes
2 Humility
1 Moat
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Grafdiggers Cage

2 Elspeth, Knight-errant
1 Pithing Nedle
3 Cataclysm
3 Argiviand Find
1 Aura Of Silence
1 Smoke Stax

10 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Karakas


sideboard
4 Swords
3 Helm
4 RiP
1 Sphere of Law
1 Aura of Silence
1 Nevermore


V 5.1 Tax With Red , Notes: Otjer versions had even 6 piroblasts and 3 AofSilence, Argivian find was the following tester. More nedles More O. Ring...

2 Karakas
8 Plains
2 Mountain
2 Serras Santum
2 Plateau
2 Arid Mesa

2 Elspeth, Knight-errant
3 B.Wish
1 P.Nedle
2 Humility
4 L.Tax
4 Scroll Rack
4 E.Tutor
1 Z.Orb
1 Story Circle
1 A. Of Silence
4 Mox Diamond
2 Orims Chant
1 B.Moon
2 Argivian F.
1 Reito Latern
2 C. Mox
2 Pyroblast
2 REB
1 Grafdigger Cage
1 O. Ring
1 Moat

Side
4 Swords
1 Nevermore
1 Tormods
1 Replenish
1 Idilyc tutor
1 Ritual of restoration
1 Porphir Nodes
1 Perish
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Armageddon
1 Piroclasm
1 Wrath of god

Enjoy.

Edit:
Well I have to say that I'm quite impressed with the results of Stax Buuild with a) Trini b) Cataclism c) L.Tax I beated the other day twice Miracles with c.b. with this approach in 2 rounds.
I would like to expose the maths behind the deck more in details but at its simplest, this deck has more threats to be countered by a blue deck and the spells are casted quicker.
The Trinisphere + Cataclism is a great discovering, Trinisphere is great as you can simply wait for the opponent to play its super jace and you just Cataclism the opponent next turn, this kind of plays are sooo great, makes you a great poker player, it seems that the Control opponent player is going to win but the fact is that it is backwards.... if you handle properly Cataclysm....

Also Nodes has been a great target, the first times I did not play it well, but it is perfect to destroy that lonely creature from cataclysm (a probem I needed to hadle), it also can be recouped with A.Find! and destroys Nimble also!
The general route to win with this is to land a Stax and next when you already have trini on the table wait until there is no lands and play Elpspeth, it is slow, but it is effective vs Control Decks, Stax is always a key card vs control decks.

Interested in dusting off my Quinn/Parfait amalgamation that I have, looking through this however, seems the most recent moves have been to a prison Stax build? No more white miracles with a twist draw engine anymore? Or is nobody left brewing?

I built the deck, and either I suck at running it or the meta is not made for it.. I feel the engine isn't as strong as it could be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy

I built the deck, and either I suck at running it or the meta is not made for it.. I feel the engine isn't as strong as it could be.

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I actually had the same experience. It looks like a great idea and fun to play (I love the RiP / Helm combo) but I guess I just had no idea what I was doing. It never seemed powerful enough to compete with any of the T1-1.5 decks. I would love to see someone with experience using this ot see what I am doing wrong.

My experience with the deck felt like we didn't blank enough hate to warrant our rogue attempt. When D&T was up and coming, it did so because it exploited both the weakness of popular decks and dodged the hate they were packing. For me it felt like Miracles was the better deck, and we fell to the same cards with nothing positive to show for it. For all their poor match ups we were just worse, and for the good ones, we were only ever just as good, never better.

It was fun to play, and satisfying when it worked well, but it never felt like anything more than a concession to not playing Miracles. Which I didn't want to play, so I guess I got what I asked for.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

My experience with the deck felt like we didn't blank enough hate to warrant our rogue attempt. When D&T was up and coming, it did so because it exploited both the weakness of popular decks and dodged the hate they were packing. For me it felt like Miracles was the better deck, and we fell to the same cards with nothing positive to show for it. For all their poor match ups we were just worse, and for the good ones, we were only ever just as good, never better.

It was fun to play, and satisfying when it worked well, but it never felt like anything more than a concession to not playing Miracles. Which I didn't want to play, so I guess I got what I asked for.

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I tried to incorporate Entreat and Terminus into the Tax/Rack engine. However, at that point, it seemed like a worse miracles deck.

Essentially any control deck without chalice is worse without Brainstorm in it. If you want to play a tax/rack deck and have the best build it would clearly include 4 x Brainstorm ... since the card is retarded with Land Tax (and retarded with fifty other things).

I've played W/r tax/rack miracles with burning wish quite a bit and it's competitive but unlikely to take down a 6+ round event.

I should probably apologize to nameless one for taking so long to get this over here.


BDI Parfait

4 Land Tax
3 Scroll Rack
3 Wrath Of God
4 Orim’s Chant
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Path to Exile
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Zuran Orb
1 Humility
1 Blood Moon
1 Trinisphere
1 Ivory Tower
1 Pithing Needle
3 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Opal

2 Rest In Peace
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Goblin Charbelcher

2 Plateau
1 Mountain
15 Plains

Sideboard
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 Batterskull
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Leyline of the Void
3 Ethersworn Cannonist

This: http://media.wizards.com/images/magi...6B0yf0P_EN.jpg

Between that and Unexpectedly Absent, I am surprise that no one is taking on a Cataclysm list.

I'm not to impressed with either card as far as competetive play is concerned. This new one is a slightly better Oblivion ring. One of the big draws to o ring being it's an enchantment, tutorable, and comes into play off of show and tell. If anything death and taxes could probably main deck a cataclysm and that will probably the best "cataclysm deck" out there. Not to say it can't be done, I just feel cataclysm needs some degree of build around me.