Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
I agree it's better once it's in play, but it's a lot harder to land a 3cc enchantment than a 1cc enchantment. Consider that your opponent plays the following:
Wasteland
Rishadan Port
Thalia
Swords to Plowshares (for Deathrite).
Additionally, you can cascade into Dread of Night.
Goblins will similarly bring Ports and Wastelands, and Merfolk will have the Wastelands and Dazes. Additionally, both of those decks are far from dead when you land the card.
E. Plague is definitely much, much better against Elves. I might consider just running Darkblast if I thought I'd face both Elves and Thalia decks.
Golgari Charm also exists.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JMLL
...
No offense, but I think you completly misunderstood my post ;-) I am arguing that the inability to make use of card advantage constitutes a loss of tempo. That's why I dislike Hymn. Sometimes you just lose with 2 Hymns in hand and a Visions suspended on 1 counters. I prefer having more cards that actually have an impact on the game state...and I think you seem to agree? I'd much rather cascade into Tarmogoyf on turn2 than basically any other card in the deck.
Regarding Engineered Plague, I've been running it for quite a while and while it's pretty good against Goblins, it won't carry the game against both Merfolk and Elves. At the Bazaar, I tapped out for Engineered Plague several times against Elves only to see them untap and Natural Order me out of the game. They still run enough 2-toughness Elves and green non-Elves to make NO into Hoof a pretty good plan. So don't rely too much on it.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
True enough, 3cc is much different than 1cc, but I'm just not sure if our SB is big enough for more than 1 Dread of Night, and just adding a single card to address Lingering Souls and Thaila is probably not sufficient.
Darkblast or Golgari Charm seem okay, though they don't combo well with Shardless if your opponent has no x/1 creatures in play. I like Engineered Explosives, its versatile, can help clear a large field and even hits enchantments like choke, but that combos even worse with Shardless. Maybe Disfigure is the answer, or I could jump on the Whipflare bandwagon.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
The Whipflare plan seems powerful against tribal decks. It seems poor against Thalia.dec, however.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Julian23
No offense, but I think you completly misunderstood my post ;-) I am arguing that the inability to make use of card advantage constitutes a loss of tempo. That's why I dislike Hymn. Sometimes you just lose with 2 Hymns in hand and a Visions suspended on 1 counters. I prefer having more cards that actually have an impact on the game state...and I think you seem to agree? I'd much rather cascade into Tarmogoyf on turn2 than basically any other card in the deck.
Yup, I'm quite with your thoughts. Maybe I prefer something else as Tarmo is my Wincon and I don't want to risk it on T2, but Cascade into Strix, then Liliana to secure the board and end with tarmo is an awesome T2, T3 & T4. Shardess into chumpblocker, then Jace is also good, ofc, but Jace better with board presence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
martijnend
The decks without Ancestral Visions really aren't the same deck. The list looks far more like a midrange-control deck. I agree that AV sometimes is an empty topdeck, but the pros of the card far exceed that downside. I actually win quite a lot of matches with the help of AV without cascading into it. Just suspending it on turn 1 and Hymning your opponent on turn 2 or 3 will gain you such an advantage that it will very hard for your opponent to pull back.
@JMLL, can you tell me why there are no Ponders in the list without AV?
I agree they play different, and I play mine more like a tempo (winning in a window of time) than a pure control, but how can this deck be "in control" anyway? By having more cards in hand that may mean more Threats? Maybe THIS is exactly the point I'm missing, I don't think that you control by pure card advantage as the deck hasn't got those powerful cards (Tarmo and Jace are your wincons, you may include Shaman).
About Ponders, at least in my meta, I need to secure the board. Visions don't help me as they come late, so does Ponder. I'm "tempoish", that's true, but I'm better with more pointed removal (name it Strix, Jitte, Disfigure or Thoughtseize) than filtering my next draws. I think my deck is not going to provide me the answers (it's a way of thinking with this deck) so it's better if I already solve what I face "right now" instead of searching for the solution (that's why I usually don't Brainstorm with Jace here, I Fateseal, I already have a wincon, let's stop your answer).
I can stall the board and the game, so why not do so? My card quality are my 4 walkers and the Thoughtseize/Vendilion that will remove that Threat/Answer the opponent had and then I set the game to win in a window of time where I've stopped him, I'm not far behind (I could even maybe trade some life for time) and then I win from then. I felt Ponder was losing me the advantage I already had by just pressing, putting me more "movements" behind my opponents (and I think Sylvan could go here aswell). Imho, Ponder would make me move a turn later (read Sylvan also) so my opponent would have had more time to find the answer or I could be losing the preassure I already was setting. I think it doesn't fit, Brainstorm (with Fetch up) already solves your hand issues, so I must remember to play them well :)
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
martijnend
@Razorwind: the thought of Sylvan Library is an interesting one. I don't know what I'd cut for it though. It's hard to cut an answer or threat for it, since we are low on them as it is. And as for the CA it provides, the cards we already have seem better in most situations. How does Library work for you?
I guess I cut something that would be equivalent to the the 3rd thoughtseize your list. It has been amazing for me. The 4th permanent source of library manipulations is exactly what I have been looking for and as a 1 of it is rarely clunky unlike a fourth JtMS. At least give it a shot and see what you think.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Long time lurker, first time poster :)
I'm looking to play Shardless BUG for the first time in a competitive event this weekend, and looking at the lists, I'm just pondering the choice of Graveyard hate in the SB. Is there a specific reason why people mainly use Nihil Spellbomb? Is the threat of Pithing Needle not that great against an opponent on Dredge, or is it mainly the benefit of potentially replacing itself after nuking a graveyard?
I'm also looking at other options, such as a split of 3 artifacts (Tormod's Crypt, Grafdigger's Cage, Bomb), or just running 3 Extirpate or Surgical Extraction. Which one have people seen as the best option and why?
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pojopembo
Long time lurker, first time poster :)
I'm looking to play Shardless BUG for the first time in a competitive event this weekend, and looking at the lists, I'm just pondering the choice of Graveyard hate in the SB. Is there a specific reason why people mainly use Nihil Spellbomb? Is the threat of Pithing Needle not that great against an opponent on Dredge, or is it mainly the benefit of potentially replacing itself after nuking a graveyard?
I'm also looking at other options, such as a split of 3 artifacts (Tormod's Crypt, Grafdigger's Cage, Bomb), or just running 3 Extirpate or Surgical Extraction. Which one have people seen as the best option and why?
Spellbomb is preferred because of its card drawing ability (and you don't want Relic because it removes all graveyards). The card drawing ability isn't as relevant vs. the fast gy decks (like Dredge or Reanimator), but more against the slower or midrange decks that run Lingering Souls, Snapcaster Mage, Zombies, Punishing Fire, Life from the Loam, etc. Sometimes, you bring in your Spellbombs against non-gy decks just to have a cycler. This happens rarely, but it does happen.
Permanent-based hate is preferred to Extraction/Extirpate due to your ability to cascade into it.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
I'm attending a legacy tourament this weekend in an unknown meta and wanted to get some help with my Sideboard.
I'm going to run Pierre Sommen's decklist with a few tweaks:
Lands:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
3 Wasteland
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
Creatures:
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Baleful Strix
Instants/Sorcery:
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
Plameswalkers:
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
SB:
3 Sinkhole or Hymn to Tourach
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Dread of Night
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Baleful Strix
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Nihil Spellbomb
My questions are:
1) I'm debating between Hymn and Sinkhole in my sideboard. I like Sinkhole against Jund, Miracle, and decks that's run Punishing Fire, whereas Hymn is a good 2 for 1 discard that can work in several matchups.
2) Should I make room for Galgari Charm? This seems like a great card vs. tier 1 decks and can solve many of the worst problems that we run into.
EDIT: Maybe I split the difference - up my wasteland count to 4, and add 1 Hymn + 2 Charms in the SB.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
I guess I cut something that would be equivalent to the the 3rd thoughtseize your list. It has been amazing for me. The 4th permanent source of library manipulations is exactly what I have been looking for and as a 1 of it is rarely clunky unlike a fourth JtMS. At least give it a shot and see what you think.
I will give it a try. It might be a while since I get a chance to play it though. I'll post my thoughts here afterwards.
Quote:
My questions are:
1) I'm debating between Hymn and Sinkhole in my sideboard. I like Sinkhole against Jund, Miracle, and decks that's run Punishing Fire, whereas Hymn is a good 2 for 1 discard that can work in several matchups.
2) Should I make room for Galgari Charm? This seems like a great card vs. tier 1 decks and can solve many of the worst problems that we run into.
EDIT: Maybe I split the difference - up my wasteland count to 4, and add 1 Hymn + 2 Charms in the SB.
Today, 09:44 AMWater_Wizard
1. Personally I'm no fan of Sinkhole in this deck. Your plan to up the number of Wastelands to four seems pretty good if you expect Punishing Jund. In that case I'll recommend Life from the Loam. The only two lands that you really want to destroy are Groves and Ports so there doesn't seem to be a need for more land destruction.
2. Yes... very much yes. That card is by far the best answer to most problems. Cut the Dread of Night. I think it's too much of a good thing to expect to land it and keep it on the board as a one of. Especially when people will be on the lookout for enchantments (Pernicious Deed and Engineered Plague primarily).
I don't know about a single Hymn in the sideboard. It will come when you don't need it more often than when you want it. Perhaps some extra targeted discard?
Quote:
About Ponders, at least in my meta, I need to secure the board. Visions don't help me as they come late, so does Ponder. I'm "tempoish", that's true, but I'm better with more pointed removal (name it Strix, Jitte, Disfigure or Thoughtseize) than filtering my next draws. I think my deck is not going to provide me the answers (it's a way of thinking with this deck) so it's better if I already solve what I face "right now" instead of searching for the solution (that's why I usually don't Brainstorm with Jace here, I Fateseal, I already have a wincon, let's stop your answer).
Clear answer, thanks. We have different styles of play which very much explains our card choices. I just like my blue cards. ;)
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
martijnend
1. Personally I'm no fan of Sinkhole in this deck. Your plan to up the number of Wastelands to four seems pretty good if you expect Punishing Jund. In that case I'll recommend Life from the Loam. The only two lands that you really want to destroy are Groves and Ports so there doesn't seem to be a need for more land destruction.
There are those, plus a few other annoying utility lands, but I was also thinking of sinkhole as a way to keep Jund off of BB, or any number of multicolor control decks from UU. I suppose I will play test to see how it goes.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Took this deck to a local tournament today. I played a split of Lilianas, Hymns, and Thoughtseize (2,2,2) and it felt pretty solid. Whipflare in the board is amazing - helped to crush Merfolk. I lost to junk depths because I misboarded and cut Force, then he drew Mage/Depths before I could draw and drop Jace.
The main concern I have coming out of this tournament is the Dredge matchup. I've played against dredge with a bunch of control decks and I've practiced with the deck enough to know how I'm supposed to fight it. But despite a reasonable opener with Deathrite both games and him having average draws, I didn't feel like the match was close. Game 1 was close, game 2 was not. How do you guys feel the dredge matchup is with only 2 Nihil Spellbombs in the side as most lists have? To me it doesn't nearly feel like enough.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmuant
Took this deck to a local tournament today. I played a split of Lilianas, Hymns, and Thoughtseize (2,2,2) and it felt pretty solid. Whipflare in the board is amazing - helped to crush Merfolk. I lost to junk depths because I misboarded and cut Force, then he drew Mage/Depths before I could draw and drop Jace.
The main concern I have coming out of this tournament is the Dredge matchup. I've played against dredge with a bunch of control decks and I've practiced with the deck enough to know how I'm supposed to fight it. But despite a reasonable opener with Deathrite both games and him having average draws, I didn't feel like the match was close. Game 1 was close, game 2 was not. How do you guys feel the dredge matchup is with only 2 Nihil Spellbombs in the side as most lists have? To me it doesn't nearly feel like enough.
I like the split of Lili Hymn and Thoughtseize. I have been testing the deck and came to thesame conclusion. I tried the Pierre Sommen list but 4 Lily seems to be to much for our list.
I am still not convinced about whipflare. How many do you run? Did you not have mana problems? Can you post your mana base? I agree it is a very nice card but I am worried the extra mana reuirements make it a bit tricky.
Dredge: unfortunately our SB has not a lot of space so we have to make choices. I only run 2 graveyard hate, DRS helps as well. Would revoker on Dread Return be an option?
I am looking forward to some ideas.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cire_dk
I like the split of Lili Hymn and Thoughtseize. I have been testing the deck and came to thesame conclusion. I tried the Pierre Sommen list but 4 Lily seems to be to much for our list.
I am still not convinced about whipflare. How many do you run? Did you not have mana problems? Can you post your mana base? I agree it is a very nice card but I am worried the extra mana reuirements make it a bit tricky.
Dredge: unfortunately our SB has not a lot of space so we have to make choices. I only run 2 graveyard hate, DRS helps as well. Would revoker on Dread Return be an option?
I am looking forward to some ideas.
I have the same worries when thinking about casting Whipflare. I'll kill one of my Red sources, probably, and Vs decks that can destroy my lone Volcanir or Badlands, I'm going to have problems to cast the 2nd one (unless I set it for cascade). Is this, cascading, the only "relaliable-ish" way to do it?
Concerning the Dread Return, it's being cast, not activated, Revoker won't help. You only can remove its target with DRS in response to the cast or remove the spell itself when they can't cast it.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
I agree about the Whipflares. It seems a stress on the mana base and I'm not really convinced that it's really that good.
Dredge is always difficult in the first match. But after boarding you've got DRS, Spellbombs and perhaps Pulses or Deeds. It seems that you've got a good chance after boarding. In my experience it's pretty much 50-50, but it feels like a positive matchup. Don't forget to kill your own creature to exile their Bridge from Belows. I regularly see people make that mistake.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
martijnend
I agree about the Whipflares. It seems a stress on the mana base and I'm not really convinced that it's really that good.
Dredge is always difficult in the first match. But after boarding you've got DRS, Spellbombs and perhaps Pulses or Deeds. It seems that you've got a good chance after boarding. In my experience it's pretty much 50-50, but it feels like a positive matchup. Don't forget to kill your own creature to exile their Bridge from Belows. I regularly see people make that mistake.
Oh yes, Deathrite was kind enough to take out 4 Bridge from Below game 1. It was too little too late though. The next turn he simply Dread Returned a giant Grave Troll and beat with Ichorids. I did find a Jace, but couldn't deal with the recurring 3/1s in time.
The reason I said Dredge feels bad is because DRS is not fast enough if they have literally any draw spell. 2 dedicated grave hate and 4 semihate cards are not enough against a reasonable dredge draw and opponent.
Regarding Whipflare, it's so much better than EPlague. 1 mana makes a world of difference. It was relevant as a 2-mana removal spell against Junk Depths, and it would have been good against Merfolk and an out to 16 Zombies against Dredge. You obviously shouldn't fetch for the Badlands until you need it and you do have DRS as another red-producer if you really need to cast Whipflare.
The manabase I played is pretty similar to what Lejay suggested:
// 23 land
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
I would consider cutting the basic Swamp for a third Bayou. The basic really didn't do anything because you're already running so many nonbasics that having one basic is pretty irrelevant. I really like the double Tar-Pit, it's so clutch in any blue mirror, and it was relevant as a blocker at least once, as depressing as that seems. I never really wanted to use my Wastes except as anti-manland spells, so 3 seems ok. Both of these were explained pretty well by GerryT before.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmuant
The reason I said Dredge feels bad is because DRS is not fast enough if they have literally any draw spell. 2 dedicated grave hate and 4 semihate cards are not enough against a reasonable dredge draw and opponent.
Well, isn't this just as simple as adding more gy hate if you want to beat Dredge? How many decks out there that don't have very much counter-magic can actually fight against Dredge evenly without enough gy hate? Don't think there're too many.
Lejay's list has 3 gy hate cards: A Grafdigger's and two Leylines. Having just one more greatly increases your chances of drawing it in a game. If you really want to beat Dredge, can always add a fourth one.
Personally, I'm more worried about Notion Thief. Since last weekend's SCG, people at my meta are starting to troll with it. This deck just has so many targets for it, and no instant way to kill him reliably.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Whipflare is the truth. I run the standard 1 badlands and nothing more. I never once have had an issue with the mana. Most games the Badlands will ride out in my hand unless I'm really hard up for mana. That way I can brainstorm it back into my deck for value while keeping the possibility of whipflare a mystery to my opponent. Worst case scenario it's a waste-able swamp, best case it saves your ass from any number of possible bad situations. Plague is nice and all, but flare is just too good to ignore. It also goes a long way in the Jund match up where it acts as a (mostly) one sided Wrath excluding goyfs. In a match up where incremental value is everything, pulling a 2:1 or better is about the best thing you could possibly do.
Leylines of the Void are also pretty solid since they're also one sided.
As for Notion Thief, I think it will fall by the wayside. If it doesn't... well there are literally dozens of ways to deal with it in BUG colors.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kl'rt
Well, isn't this just as simple as adding more gy hate if you want to beat Dredge? How many decks out there that don't have very much counter-magic can actually fight against Dredge evenly without enough gy hate? Don't think there're too many.
Lejay's list has 3 gy hate cards: A Grafdigger's and two Leylines. Having just one more greatly increases your chances of drawing it in a game. If you really want to beat Dredge, can always add a fourth one.
Personally, I'm more worried about Notion Thief. Since last weekend's SCG, people at my meta are starting to troll with it. This deck just has so many targets for it, and no instant way to kill him reliably.
Well yeah, that's pretty much what I'm saying. If beating dredge is a consideration, the sideboards that I've seen in most top-performing lists will not be enough. Dredge is probably not enough of a concern anymore that it's worth it though. I was really just trying to raise awareness of this.
Yeah, Cascade doesn't play well with any of the answers to him that I came up with off the top of my head. The best I can think of is find/get Jitte active before they find their Notion Thief.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmuant
Well yeah, that's pretty much what I'm saying. If beating dredge is a consideration, the sideboards that I've seen in most top-performing lists will not be enough. Dredge is probably not enough of a concern anymore that it's worth it though. I was really just trying to raise awareness of this.
Yeah, Cascade doesn't play well with any of the answers to him that I came up with off the top of my head. The best I can think of is find/get Jitte active before they find their Notion Thief.
And with the upcomming changes Jitte gets some more value again. Jitte was always a card to destroy other Jitte's or would be destroyed by other Jittes which could be tutored in most other decks. It found a place in many Shardless BUG lists. Now Jitte will stay on the board in Shardless BUG, while we have better ways (Abrupt Decay) to deal with this evil piece of equipment from our opponent. Thoughts?
