[Deck] Aluren

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bahamuth

Dream Stalker isn't targeted, so your opponent can't respond with an StP on the creature you just targeted. You could go Recruiter --> Recruiter --> Recruiter --> Dream Stalker (Bounce Recruiter) --> Harpy (Bounce Stalker) --> Stalker (Bounce Recruiter) --> Recruiter --> Raven and win from there easily, without targeting a single creature, ever.

---

Not targeting allows you to bounce Recruiter, getting an extra use out of it. But any opponent would kill your Stalker in response to you playing Harpy, making you fizzle (you can't play Harpy and respond to it with Stalker since you have to play Stalker --> Recruiter to get the Harpy first).

As for the other discussions...Ponder and Brainstorm should be four each, and I think what Toad said about you wanting two forests on the first two turns, and thus Wall being better than Oracle is right - Wasteland is a big threat to this deck. Furthermore, I'm wondering about the total lack of City of Traitors (I play three) - even if it IS a controllish combo deck, it is one with a combo piece that costs four mana, which is a lot, and making the third turn kill more consistent is great. It also allows for second turn Ravens and Intuition to set it up, although you should be sure that there's no Wasteland waiting.

I think we are writting off oracle too quickly. Just slamming a couple into the original decklist will not allow you to see what they can really do. Oracle is best used with another debatable card: lim-dul's vault.

The fact that vault is 2 mana, is just insane (even though its your 2 secondary colors). Vault is very comprable to intuition, but i would not replace intuition entirely. I also like to up the island count to facilitate oracles, and vaults. If you run essense warden ( i would), then the life loss from vault is even less of a factor (it shouldn't be anyhow).

Between vault, familiar, and brainstorm; oracle will accel you way more than 33%. It is also blue, so it (and vault) pitches to FoW, and combos with harpy alone. Aluren + harpy + oracle + 10 life = gg. Its as simple as that.

If you are using goyfs (you should), then the fact that oracle just chumps, is less of a worry. Remember, a goyf and an oracle can kill a goyf; a goyf and a wall won't.

I have really been liking 2-3 oracles, 2-3 vaults (right now im going 3 oracles, 2 vault, 2 intuition). Room is really the only problem

Coiling Oracle is also good when you have both Brainstorm and Ponder as four-ofs in your deck. In this situaltion the chance of accelerating into Aluren on turn 3, combined with the effect of wall of roots, is a lot higher. I know comboin out on turn 3 is not the aim of the deck, but sometimes it just happens and you win.

This deck really intrigues me because of the different possibilities that come from the combo..

However I would like to ask the players who have played Aluren extensively, how does this deck work without the main card, Aluren?

I'm sure if a player wanted to get rid of Aluren they could, since there are a vast amount of removal spells (i.e disenchant or counters) out there.

I'm assembling this deck and it seems like the only card I would be unable to get any time soon is intuition.. How essential is this card? Could I replace it with a cheap substitution is what I'm getting at.

I do not have a ton of practice with the deck, but you can get a real good idea what the deck is like (in regards to winning the game, not stopping the opponent) by glancing at the creatures.

Without Aluren you have cabal and Fow to slow them down, but that does not win you the game. To win the game w/out Aluren revolves around swinging with scrub creatures and possibly recuring tricks with a Witness. Imagine a Survival deck without survival then -70%.

"Without Aluren you have cabal and Fow to slow them down, but that does not win you the game. To win the game w/out Aluren revolves around swinging with scrub creatures and possibly recuring tricks with a Witness. Imagine a Survival deck without survival then -70%."

I hate to be the one to say it, Tarmogoyf is one of the best things to happen to the deck in a while. A good shield, and an alternative win-con

Without aluren you basically become a terrible faerie stompy deck. Other than your flyers, you can use some harpy trickery to play around with everything. Man-o-wars can also bounce things around enough that you could get a goyf or 2 to connect.

Intuition is pretty important, especially in the control MU. Your other options would be:
lim-dul's vault
chord of calling
impulse / ponder
coiling oracle
fact or fiction


That's all i can really think of. There is really nothing else that offers the tutor ability that intuition does, especially with therapies.

Has anyone tried Orim's Chant in the deck?

Or is it too redundant? With the Cabal Therapies and the Force of Wills?

The problem with Chant is it requires you to run a shoddy manabase w/ your fourth color. That, in my opinion, is the biggest reason I gave up on imperial recruiters 2 years ago. If you consider the imperial ver. of aluren, chant would make that manabase even worse!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Toad

I tested Coiling Oracle when a french player suggested it quite long ago on our french Legacy boards. I went back to Wall of Blossoms after a few games, mostly for two reasons :

. Coiling Oracle is an awful Control element. Wall of Blossoms can hold a Goblin or Nimble Mongoose forever. This is very important for the main deck strategy.

. Coiling Oracle forces Tropical Island on turn 2, when you always want two Forests on turn 2 in order to have a safe turn 3 Intuition or Wall + Brainstorm. Oracle will only accelerate you 33% of the time, and in a lot of matchups I'd rather have that Tropical Island in hand drawn from Wall of Blossoms than in play to cast Coiling Oracle, because of Intuition vs. Wasteland.

---

- why would you play only forest fetches? I would play half forest half islands.
- coiling oracle is blue and can be pitched to FoW (which has very few removable cards finally, you rarely want to remove intuition or brainstorm).
- coiling oracle is blue, can dig with harpy and even find some mana to intuition/brainstorm when you're full tap.
- coiling oracle enables turn 1 brainstorm.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bahamuth
Dream Stalker isn't targeted, so your opponent can't respond with an StP on the creature you just targeted. You could go Recruiter --> Recruiter --> Recruiter --> Dream Stalker (Bounce Recruiter) --> Harpy (Bounce Stalker) --> Stalker (Bounce Recruiter) --> Recruiter --> Raven and win from there easily, without targeting a single creature, ever.

Not targeting allows you to bounce Recruiter, getting an extra use out of it. But any opponent would kill your Stalker in response to you playing Harpy, making you fizzle (you can't play Harpy and respond to it with Stalker since you have to play Stalker --> Recruiter to get the Harpy first).

---

Actually, that's because he does it bad:
Recruiter --> Recruiter --> Recruiter --> Dream Stalker (Bounce Recruiter) --> Harpy (Bounce Stalker) --> Stalker (Bounce Recruiter) --> Recruiter --> Stalker (Bounce Recruiter) --> Recruiter --> spike feeder

(non split second) Removal proof and life loss free. There is 1 recruiter too many. You could even search for 2 harpies, if you want to be split second (creature) removal proof.

Actually, I find shrieking drake better than dream stalker, but that's probably because I like to play several times my CIP creatures and 1 mana less is always cool.

The deck has a lot of problems to find 20 blue cards and a lot of these blue cards are crucial for the deck. That's the main reason why I recommend the use of coiling oracle over wall of blossom.

As already stated, chant = 4 colors = bad.

In regards to fetches, i run a 4/3 split in favor of forest fetches. Since the deck needs GG to win and can function with only one island, this seems like the best compramise. I don't think anyone is advocating running all forest fetches (toad's newest list doesn't).

Coiling Oracle can be a misleading card. I think people get too caught up in speculation over what it could do, and tend to overestimate its worth. You run 22 blue cards; of those, the only ones you don't really want to remove are the 2 harpies. Loosing the other cards will slow you down, but the tempo swing gained by just using the force should compensate for it. Also, let us not forget that oracle will more than likely be played turn 2, thus negating any pitchable effect. If you need to use a force before turn 2, it would probably be worth pitching an intuition to stop the same spell.


The main reason to run oracle over wall of blossoms is because of its combination with harpy under aluren. Going off necropotence style is rather nice at times, however by running goyf as your sole blocker, your life becomes a rather scarse resource.

I would only recomend running oracle in a meta where aggro is almost non-existant. With goyf as your only sizable creature, you are being rather suicidal in your approach.

As paradoxical as it may sound, I am concerned goyf is simply too good for this deck. An important role it still needs to preform is being a wall. Unfortunately unlike a lowly Wall of Root, goyf has a neon "kill me" sing over it's head which is somewhat detrimental to holding the fort. Enter the other "best creature ever" -- Psychatog.

Besides not being a goyf it has a couple of other strengths:

+ pitches to FoW
+ shrinks goyfs
+ actually kills goyfs
+ black (dodges some removal, can block Shriekmaw, etc.)
+ sometimes just wins
+ less likely to get hit by Counterbalance

on the other hand it:

- costs more (this can be especially problematic as the meta is speeding up)
- colours are wrong for early development

Starting from Toad's latest list I went:

4 Wall of Blossoms

-4 Tarmogoyf
-3 Forest
-1 Bayou

+3 Psychatog
+1 Ponder
+1 Underground Sea
+1 Wooded Foothills
+1 Windswept Heath
+1 Polluted Delta

The land mix probably needs more tweaking. I do however like Chapin's idea of protecting your lands with fetches rather than relying on basics. As an added bonus they also feed the tog. [EDIT: and make your subsequent draws better; especially important when going off.]

I second Nastaboi's enthusiasm for Ponder. It's a powerhouse! I recommend changing 1 Harpy for 1 Ponder to anyone running 3 Harpies.

Hi,

This is my version:

// Mainboard
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Taiga
2 Forest
1 Island
2 City of Traitors
3 Imperial Recruiter
1 Shrieking Drake
1 Man-o'-War
1 Cavern Harpy
1 Spike Feeder
1 Eternal Witness
3 Wall of Blossoms
2 Wall of Roots
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Aluren
4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Living Wish

// Sideboard
1 City of Traitors
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Eternal Witness
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Rishadan Cutpurse
1 Shriekmaw
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Stern Proctor
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Leyline of the Void

In my opinion FoW is not necessary.
I think Thoughtseize/Duress is definetly to play over FoW.

- You don't have to pitch a card.
- You can see your oponents hand -> Synergy to Therapy.
- You are not forced to play more blue cards than you actually want.

I tried to play the combo parts as few as possible.
There are 1 Harpy, 1 Drake, 1 Jellyfish, 1 Feeder, 1 Witness.

You need only 1 Harpy in the recruiter-version. It is not affected by Bolts, Swords...

You need 1 Drake, 1 Jellyfish or 2 Drakes minimum, to not lose the combo by opponents instant removal.
I play the Split, cause the Jellyfish is the better card.
You can board 1 of them out after the first game, if your opponent doesn't play instant removal.

I decide to play 1 Spike Feeder over Auriok Champion or Essence Warden. Spike Feeder is better than Essence Warden outside the combo. Auriok Champion does nothing outside the combo and you don't need the pro black/red.

Please tell me, what do you think about that.

(Sorry for my bad english.)

I like Force of Will over Thoughtseize because of the mana issue. You want to go off as soon as possible. That one black mana for thoughtseize may mean another turn. Whereas if you're holding a FoW in hand you don't have to. Cabal Therapy costs one black as is and that should be enough discard..

I guess the bottom line is would you rather wait another turn or be one turn faster but may have to pitch away a card for FoW.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by P-AiR

...may have to pitch away a card for FoW.

---

And typically the blue cards in your hand are (arguably) the most important ones (combo pieces). Thoughtseize just says get rid of it; waiting the turn is almost negligible if you play Thoughtseize the turn before.

Something as ubiquitous as SDT completely foils the Thoughtseize plan. Not to mention people tend to draw a card during their turn which makes let's-wait-a-turn even less appealing.

On a more theoretical level, consider a situation where the opponent has two relevant threats. With the active approach it's you who are spending resources first. This puts your opponent in a very advantageous position as he can play the second threat unmolested. While with a reactive answer he is the first to spend resources decreasing the probability of having enough left to follow-up with the second threat.

Besides, even though this deck has one of the best inevitabilities around, let's not kid ourselves. Sometimes you just can't wait another turn.

This deck plays wayy more than enough defensive creatures where waiting a turn to knock a disruptive spell out of an opponent's hand is just fine. Even if you do it turn one, that's no problem.

I don't even play this deck and I pretty much suck all around, but if wanting to have a back up counter, not pitch a card, and go off a turn sooner than waiting, why not say Pact of Negation?

I'm sure it's probably already been thought of and dismissed. Just thought I'd blurt it out for no good reason...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by A Legend

This deck plays wayy more than enough defensive creatures where waiting a turn to knock a disruptive spell out of an opponent's hand is just fine. Even if you do it turn one, that's no problem.

---

Ern, no:

1) fast aggro is still a problem.

2) combo. Not just in terms of speed, but also something like TES with multiple venues of going off has a much easier time playing through sorcery speed discard then a counter. where with proper timing you can waste their whole hand in one fell swoop.

3) black is your ternary colour. In face of LD it can seriously hurt your development to go for black too early.

Don't get me wrong FoW is not be-all (although it comes pretty close), that is why we board it out in some match-ups. However not having it in the first place would significantly weaken the deck's overall strategy.

[EDIT:]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Versus

I don't even play this deck and I pretty much suck all around, but if wanting to have a back up counter, not pitch a card, and go off a turn sooner than waiting, why not say Pact of Negation?

---

Becouse you often don't win on the turn you go off (especially with builds like Toad's latest).

Tog is simply not a substitute for goyf because it costs 1 more. We already run 0 turn 1-drop creatures, and going down to 4 two-drop creatures would be a serious mistake. Also, your turn 3 is crucial with harpy, man-o-war, intuition, witness, spike and deed all becoming factors.

I used to run duress in place of FoW, simply because i didn't own forces. The main issue that comes up, is this forces you to run a random 1-of hard counter, so that you can pass your turn and not loose to wrath of god or w/e (I used 1 foil). That means you are already running 1 FoW, why not just run 4. The reasons vetinari mentioned are the other problem with cutting force.