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So far my overall record in matches played is 9-2.
One thing I have learned is that the combo matchup and the DnT are anything but pleasent.
My current list is basically
3 SSG
4 ESG
3 Crop Rotation
3 Into the North
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Needle
4 Expidition Map
3 Tops
3 Not of this World
3 Fling
3 Sylvan Scrying
plus a variety of utility lands including Sejiri Step, Bojuka Bog, Karkas and Wolf Run plus Urborg
Playing toxic deluge +maze(you can copy it with thespian's stage that's a common trick) + sb grudge allows to beat DeathAndtaxes.
I have tested fling already it is alright against death and taxes but i prefer toxic deluge which is better against other decks, also you can rarely
have double backup with fling contrary as others cards ; your version seems also weak to miracle.
When you go for maze then double maze they have to overextend into your toxic deluge which is game from there.
Also not playing sylvan library is wrong best card against sword to plownshares as said a billion time and playing top doesn't allows to name top on needle against miracle.
Though you have to leave your spirit/petal and play lands instead.
I went 4-2 in last open beating RUGdelver, BURGdelver, reanimator, Junk all 2-0 and losing on the draw each time 1-2 URdelver and UR omnishow.
To sum up
Core cards:
Into the North
Crop Rotation
Expedition Map
Sylvan Scrying
To find the missing Depths, Stage or any landcard needed.
In order to get our big beater in play, we also have Vampire Hexmage
Protection, in various quantaties:
Pithing Needle
Abrupt Decay
Thoughtseize
Not of This World
Perhaps, to be considered: Steely Resolve , Living Wish. While a slow card, Living Wish protects your combo and gives you options outside the game. It happened to my various times that they took my Depths with Extirpate or Surgical Extraction... Which is not funny at all :smile:
I even tried Life from the Loam, in combination with Exploration: it did good, but felt a bit clunky
Also, the only protection most commonly used would be Pithing Needle. I personally would also use Abrupt Decay
Some of us are using some excelleration:
Lotus Petal
Elvish Spirit Guide
Simiam Spirit Guide (for those splashing red)
Deck manipulation is very good, drawing extra cards is even better:
Sensei's Divining Top
Sylvan Library
Dark Confidant
I'm currently using Dark Confidant, but will maybe switch to Sylvan Library
And of course the manabase:
Karakas
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Bayou
Dark Depths
Thespian's Stage
And various other utility-lands like Bojuka Bog
As you can see, I'm on the BG-wagon. Do I miss something? Any cards at all?
Don't forget deathrite shaman. He offers acceleration and utility against graveyard decks like reanimator and ichorid. Yeah, the death and taxes match-up is nearly impossible to win. Half their deck is good to outstanding against us. Never won on tournament against them. More tips would be helpfull.
What is your current build Adrieng? And how does not playing Spirit and Petals work out for you? I have no problems with dropping ESG, but Petals have done me good.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
Toxic Deluge and Maze seems like a good strategy against D&T, perhaps combined with Steely Resolve (giving your avatar hexproof is no laughing matter) would make the game more even...
My current build is the following :
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Maze of Ith
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Mana Confluence
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Sylvan Library
4 Expedition Map
3 Not of This World
4 Pithing Needle
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 4 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 2 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
1 Marit Lage
Changing some cards from the side from time to time.
If you play toxic deluge you don't need lotus petal/guide that for sure you might be slower but you are a control combo deck so you have most of the time the better long plan. Copying maze with thespian stage is a very good strategy to wait for deluge against death and taxes ; you also need library in your main.
Steely resolve is worse than not of this world cause you can't give pro with sejiri steppe to avoid flying blockers and it costs 2 and can be destroy. I used to play them (steely and sylvan safekeeper) but not of this world is way better.
I have done one other tornament went 3-2 beating 2-0 UW control(not miracle) 2-0 URdelver 2-0 patriot and losing 1-2 URdelver (on the draw) and 1-2 BR reanimator.
I have changed a little the side the lonly canonist has disapeared cause we are already a bye for ANT and i prefer trying to beat reanimator/elves with more consistance.
The list is solid and I am quite sold on everything (I have tested recently exploration as 3 off but they tend to augment variance in the deck the reb/blast are more solid to me).
I'm quiet satisfied with 1x mirri's guile. I ran 1 maindeck (together with 3 confidants). I believe its better than sensei's divining top because we put the needle sometimes on top and it costs no mana. (in the first turns, this deck is very mana-hungry. Have you tried it?
Right now I'm trying this list. Feels solid, plays solid:
Dark Depths
Creatures (8)
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Confidant
Spells (24)
4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Crop Rotation
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Pithing Needle
4 Thoughtseize
Other (6)
2 Sylvan Library
4 Lotus Petal
Land (22)
1 Karakas
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Savannah
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Bayou
Sideboard (15)
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Ashen Rider
3 Krosan Grip
SB is still under construction. I'll choose Sylvan Library over Mirri's Guile all day of the week. I still have a weak spot for Lotus Petal: it has proven me speed as well as the mana I need for a timely AD on Blood Moon. Still, if I would drop LP, it would be for one or two Sylvan Libraries and probably land. Bob has proven it's worth: being a Sword-magnet and filling my hand with cards. If I was to cut something for NoTW it would probably be Thoughtseize. However, for now I'll keep it like this.
Mirri's Guile is much better in loam strategies, so I agree that Sylvan Library is probably better.
Also, I would probably put back some Into the North in place of a few Sylvan Scrying.
In testing URburn (I lost twice 1-2 irl on the draw each time) deck is not that easy while URdelver is a bye.
I think dark confidant is not where you want to be, it is too slow and gives opponents blast targets.
I am testing a 3 off innocent blood in the place of the 2 into the north and one Not of this world.
Against tempo decks with swords mainly patriot when you get to the point where your marit lage get sworded you shld win anyway +20 life is a huge gain of time to recombo off or draw a billion cards through library.
Whith reb/pyro you only need one Not of this world/crop to get the protection backup you need mostly against miracle/deathblade.
It is only useful against death and taxes/Kotr.decks which is not so hard to beat after side (3 toxic deluge+3 grudge) and where inocent blood is nearly as good.
Abrupt decay is too slow I think and hard to cast, you have ratchet bomb after side which is better at answering things
like blood moon/needle+one cc elves/random humility/entreat tokens (you have to keep the bomb @0 while there is no counterbalance/humilty/blood moon on the board!!) ...
Reb/pyroblast is better than thoughtseize no way killing delver/jace/counterbalance having backups countering show and tell etc ... and the two points of life might hurts.
I am quite sure sylvan scrying is better than into the north for consistancy issues ; getting the part of combo which you already have can be problematic. I know into the north speeds up the deck ; but the deck is already too slow most of the time even whith it to go off before others combo decks except maybe elves but it still faster and with too much density for tempo/midrange decks.
And don't play these bayous/savannah other way the RUG matchup is way harder with submerge in side they should beat you most of the time and you forget the obviosu Sejiri Steppe which is a MVP of the deck, without this card the deck would be much worse.
I don't know... It can give you cards to get your combo faster online and otherwise draws Swords etc, which they can't play on your Marit Lage. It's a win-win to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
I like the Innocent Blood idea, let us know how it worked out for you :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
I have no problem casting Abrupt Decay. Lotus Petal and ESG are not only in the deck for speed. I like to have the catch-all card! Take away problems you have to answer. As for the Ratchet Bomb, in my opinion, it's a slow answer: you have to get counters on it. If you want to take Blood Moon it could be too late: three turns getting our ass kicked or your R.B. getting destroyed. It is however a sweeper, i'll give you that.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
I don't know... I would rather use REB/ Blast as a SB-option. Thoughtseize have been of marginal importance. I could see me drop it from my list, but I never had any problems with the lifeloss. In fact, it can give you a bit more time against combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
I would even go as far as to say that it does not speed up your deck, but you will open yourself up to too many problems: Dark Depths will come into play tapped, which is a huge drawback. It will show your opponent your strategy and time to make a strategy of his/ her own. I like the 4 E-Map and 4 SScrying.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
Submerge, Snap: they tend to target your Marit Lage... That's why you play Not of This World. In fact, that's why I would drop Thoughtseize in favor of NotW, and maybe two or three Steely Resolve in my SB. I kind of forgot about Sejiri Steppe, and I will put it back in the deck again.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
I LOVE LOVE LOVE Living Wish. It got me to 2nd place at a 40-man tournament.
I've also found Noxious Revival to be very, very good.
Wasteland, Life from the Loam, Wasteland, Go. Makes delver cry.
My list:
//Artifact (7)
3 Expedition Map
4 Pithing Needle
//Creature (3)
3 Vampire Hexmage
//Instant (7)
4 Crop Rotation
3 Noxious Revival
//Sorcery (18)
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Into the North
3 Life from the Loam
4 Living Wish
4 Sylvan Scrying
//Tribal Instant (2)
2 Not of This World
//Land (23)
2 Bayou
3 Dark Depths
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
2 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
3 Thespian's Stage
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
SB: 1 Ashen Rider
SB: 1 Bayou
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Dark Depths
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
SB: 1 Sylvan Safekeeper
SB: 1 Thespian's Stage
SB: 1 Vampire Hexmage
SB: 1 Viridian Shaman
SB: 1 Wasteland
SB: 1 Yixlid Jailer
Thinking about losing Hymn for a Rite of Consumption and maybe another Expedition Map, but Hymn has been rocking.
Anyone like Exploration?
Nice list! And yes, I like Exploration... Still looking for a solid brew.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhyrexianPossum
I don't like your list you play only 8 green source and you do play forest which you should avoid. You want to side out Not Of this World against blue decks without white which you can't because of submerge and you play forest.
I have found 10-11 with 4 map is the minimum to get a passable mana base; and I still sometimes have issues. Playing wasteland+needle is wrong cause you can't name wasteland on needle.
LW is bad too slow you take out 3 cards that are directly active (stage+dark depth+vampire) to play 4 cards that have to pay 1G to search for something and that makes the side so worse.
Didn't test noxious revival might be playable if you expect surgical extraction or reanimator but i don't like it, card disadvantage
Hymn is bad you don't take the cards you want to get ride off.
Your list is bad though the power of the deck (redondancy) made you finished second out of 40.
Also playing loam without having acces of ways to kill DRS is wrong that's a reason of not playing lftl, other ways go with punishing fire.
I really, really like Living Wish just because of its toolbox utility.
I don't want to splash red for Punishing Fire. I'm keeping it B/G (mostly for budget reasons.
How does this look? Without Living wish, looks more consistent but substantially less powerful than the Wish version:
//Artifact (4)
4 Expedition Map
//Creature (4)
4 Vampire Hexmage
//Enchantment (4)
4 Exploration
//Instant (4)
4 Crop Rotation
//Sorcery (16)
4 Into the North
4 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox
4 Sylvan Scrying
//Land (28)
1 Barren Moor
3 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Dark Depths
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Maze of Ith
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Snow-Covered Forest
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Tranquil Thicket
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
Well, I liked the first build... it is slow, yes, and I tried LW as well just to be frustrated with how slow it is... I however don't like this build so much, PhyrexianPossum :smile:
- 3 LftL should be enough,
- 2 Into the North should be enough,
- Exploration means speed, so I would definitely play some Mox Diamond,
- Why Smallpox? If you really want to play that card, just play Loam Pox.
For reference, my own build:
Spells (22)
3 Exploration
3 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Expedition Map
4 Abrupt Decay
Other (12)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Diamond
4 Pithing Needle
Land (26)
1 Karakas
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Maze of Ith
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Barren Moor
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Bayou
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 ?
The four lands would probably be a mix of cyclelands, perhaps a Bojuka Bog and basics. And... yes, my love for Lotus Petal and Abrupt Decay runs deep :cool: However, I can see me dropping the Lotus Petal for consistancy, something like Vampire Hexmage
EDIT: Living Wish would be great in this build, of course!
I agree, the manabase needs at least 14 green sources (including expedition map, but I don't like very much the idea of paing :3: for mana fixing) if you want to see one in your starting hand consistently.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
You say that Living Wish is "bad too slow", while on paper is a Sylvan Scrying that can grab also Vampire Hexmage. It's true that to play Wish you have to cut some combo pieces, but on the other hand you low the odds of bad draws like Trespian Stage and Vampire Hexmage (without Depths) and so you rise the consistency and the flexibility (you can take silver bullets from sideboard if needed).
Why not Into the North?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
I said two, but that's just because I think that the card does not neccesarily speed you up. Now in my build I wanted to make room for other valuecards like LftL. However, I found the following decktech: http://youtu.be/HZpq-GkksmUQuote:
Originally Posted by PhyrexianPossum
It basically packs 4 of Expedition Map, Sylvan Scrying, and Into the North. It also packs one Forest, using a Rainbow-manabase. I really thought with four Not from This World you at least have some protection. So Adrieng, I will be reforming my manabase just like you said, and maybe I will like it :smile: Oh, and it has three copies of Fling main.
I've built a new version; less like Lands Control and more Turbo Depths, aiming to go as fast as possible.
//Artifact (11)
3 Expedition Map
4 Lotus Petal
4 Pithing Needle
//Creature (8)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Vampire Hexmage
//Instant (4)
4 Crop Rotation
//Sorcery (12)
3 Into the North
1 Rite of Consumption
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Thoughtseize
//Tribal Instant (3)
3 Not of This World
//Land (22)
4 Bayou
4 Dark Depths
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Sideboard
3 Ashen Rider
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Dread of Night
3 Golgari Charm
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
This version is much more consistent, and faster, than the Loam version. IT sometimes gets a turn 2 Marit Lage, usually averaging turn 3-4.