Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
After 10 h of testing (against Merfolks with TNN, and playing my self TNN in Bant construction) I can say:
- TNN is pain on both sides - most decks just can't kill them - its unlimited bloker, attacker - and when you playing it - you know it.
- Goyf isn't best defensive creature anymore, but it stay in 2 cmc spot.
- its really unfun, and un-interactive
- Engineered Explosives will rise in prize and numbers in decks since its best 3 color answer vs it (and quite universal vs other things).
- Decks which can't deal with TNN, and aren't combo decks will just loses.
Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
Quote:
Originally Posted by
troopatroop
I greatly disagree with you. I was also in the camp that Lorescale Coatl was good. I was wrong then, but it doesn't mean we're wrong now. It's a much different card, way more powerful, with a better manacost.
There's no real need to feel bad about mis-evaluating inexpensive cards such as Delver of Secrets, Lorescale Coatl, Young Pyromancer, etc. The worst thing that can happen is that you'll waste a few bucks. With True-Name Nemesis, the stakes are that much higher.
I don't think that TNN is particularly hard to evaluate, though. It simply does exactly what it says on the tin, and it fits into existing decks.
Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
Joke from a friend:
What is the worst combat battle on MtG ?
-True-Name Nemesis Mirror ;D
Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fatal
Joke from a friend:
What is the worst combat battle on MtG ?
-True-Name Nemesis Mirror ;D
Mental Misstep all over again. WotC screwed up - again - and players have to suffer.
Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
The main UK online retailer just put up there singles; only $45each for TNN!
Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
Is it ever correct to massively buy in to an expensive card upon release? No, it's almost never correct. I don't make posts thinking about financial value of cards, I make them based on the cards effect on the game of Magic. I hugely overvalued Coatl + Brainstorm, like many people did at the time. Was Mental Misstep overvalued? There were those who said it was bad, and that they wouldn't be playing it. People have this idea that if hype exists, then it's probably overboard. I realize this has happened, but that doesn't mean it's true for this case! You have to evaluate it differently. Imo, 10% of legacy just changed. 4 of the 40 cards we choose to play. I mean, I know I will be playing this card at 4x, because it's bonkers, and I play to win. I know I'm not alone in that sentiment.
I think the card is ban worthy, not because it "breaks" the format, but because it invalidates so much diversity. What creatures can compete with a Delver, Tarmogoyf, Nemesis core? I'll give you a hint, it's none of them. In a game like magic, that won't ever just change, unless they print more great creatures. If anything positive is taken from this guy, it's that the doors have been opened for even more powerful dudes from these commander sets. If they circumvent standard, and give us more powerful cards, I think the game could find more depth. Unfortunately, with only 1 new powerhouse, alot of depth was immediately axed.
Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
Quote:
Originally Posted by
troopatroop
Is it ever correct to massively buy in to an expensive card upon release? No, it's almost never correct. I don't make posts thinking about financial value of cards, I make them based on the cards effect on the game of Magic. I hugely overvalued Coatl + Brainstorm, like many people did at the time. Was Mental Misstep overvalued? There were those who said it was bad, and that they wouldn't be playing it. People have this idea that if hype exists, then it's probably overboard. I realize this has happened, but that doesn't mean it's true for this case! You have to evaluate it differently. Imo, 10% of legacy just changed. 4 of the 40 cards we choose to play. I mean, I know I will be playing this card at 4x, because it's bonkers, and I play to win. I know I'm not alone in that sentiment.
I think the card is ban worthy, not because it "breaks" the format, but because it invalidates so much diversity. What creatures can compete with a Delver, Tarmogoyf, Nemesis core? I'll give you a hint, it's none of them. In a game like magic, that won't ever just change, unless they print more great creatures. If anything positive is taken from this guy, it's that the doors have been opened for even more powerful dudes from these commander sets. If they circumvent standard, and give us more powerful cards, I think the game could find more depth. Unfortunately, with only 1 new powerhouse, alot of depth was immediately axed.
The problem is they dropped this bomb on the same day as (one of?) the largest Legacy tournament in Europe, and 2 weeks before a similar one in the states. You really don't have time to see if it's good enough before sinking money into it. So everyone has to believe the hype or they will may miss out.
Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
I see, I just don't really care about the value. I understand the speculation, but if you lose 20 dollars on your investment, you can probably live with it. I don't think it's a question of whether or not you need them to win the tournament. If you need your deck to be of 100% power level, then you need the card. Some people don't mind if their decks runs at 85. If you're on combo, or a deck that doesn't support it, that's fine.
I expect half the top 8 to have it main. The meta hasn't felt the need for the hate yet, so it won't be MD.
Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
Quote:
Originally Posted by
troopatroop
I think the card is ban worthy, not because it "breaks" the format, but because it invalidates so much diversity. What creatures can compete with a Delver, Tarmogoyf, Nemesis core? I'll give you a hint, it's none of them.
I'm not sure, but it's probably not "None of them." Nimble Mongoose, Deathrite Shaman, Grim Lavamancer, Stoneforge Mystic, Dark Confidant, Snapcaster Mage, Young Pyromancer, Vendilion Clique, Lingering Souls, Knight of the Reliquary, and Tombstalker all compete with True-Name Nemesis for slots in the current crop of Tier 1 and Tier 2 decks. The tribal decks (with Merfolk including some number of TNN) and Death and Taxes will run a host of creatures that aren't pushed out by TNN. There's another stack of creatures that will continue to see some play, like Scavenging Ooze, Thalia, and Veteran Explorer.
True-Name Nemesis is super interesting, but I don't think it's a strict upgrade over Clique, the creature most directly competing for the slots. It's certainly not a strict upgrade to the big list of creatures above. It may end up being better than some of those creatures, but it's not clear at first glance that it will invalidate most creatures in the format. I expect TNN to see play, but not to be a new cornerstone of the format.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
troopatroop
I expect half the top 8 to have it main. The meta hasn't felt the need for the hate yet, so it won't be MD.
I'm honestly interested as to which decks you think will be running it the first weekend it's legal. It has potential to fit right into BUG Delver, URW Delver, and Merfolk, but those don't usually make up half of a top 8. It doesn't really fit right into RUG Delver, Shardless, any combo deck, Jund, etc., and those tend to make up a pretty big chunk of the metagame. I'm really looking forward to the results, and I may be completely wrong.
By no means am I saying True-Name Nemesis doesn't have great potential. I just think it's premature to claim that it's ban-worthy because of how stifling it is to the format's playable creature base.
Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
It's that approach that makes me sad. You don't fit a card into decks, you build new decks. You focus the deck around the creatures you choose from the start. I think Delver/Goyf/Nemsis is more powerful than every other 3 creature core possible. The thing about creature cores, is that they strengthen the other cards in your deck. I think decks built on the foundation of other creatures pale in comparison. You mentioned a lot of creatures that don't compete with Nemesis on the board. No creature can ever prevent it from getting in for three, and you have to pray your counterswing with any one of them will work out, or else you've lost if you can win really quickly.
Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
I really don't see what the big deal is about this card. It's good and a solid upgrade for some decks, but it's being wayyyyy overhyped. At 3 mana, a card *needs* to be powerful to be under serious consideration for competitive play.
Consider these:
Knight of the Reliquary, Show and Tell, Back to Basics, Blood Moon, Choke, Snapcaster + 1-mana instant/sorcery, Vendilion Clique, Geist of St. Traft, Shardless Agent, Liliana of the Veil, Intuition, Mangara + Karakas, Trinisphere, etc...
In almost each case, these cards needs to be answered quickly or it will result in 'game over'. TNN is arguably slower in its impact, since 3 damage a turn doesn't even impact the game state immediately.
The only decks that will have serious problems against TNN are control decks (and maybe midrange to an extent), and these decks have *always* had to adapt to dealing with new anti-control threats (e.g. Thrun, Nimble Mongoose, etc.). It's not that hard to add Edict-effects or Board-wipes if you think TNN is such a problem, and to be quite honest I'd be happy if UWr Miracles didn't exist in this format anymore (SDT + Cbalance are incredibly annoying to play against and these are the decks that tend to bring tournaments to a crawl due to their sluggish nature).
At 3 mana I'm honestly not that concerned about it. If it cost 2, then we could have this sort of hyperbolic discussion.
Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
I don't think boss-dog creatures can BE overhyped. Creatures are what change magic more than anything.
Also, most of the cards/strategies you mentioned die to Abrupt Decay.
Who cares about speed if you KNOW you're going to win? Just have some pressure/answers and it's gg.
Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
Quote:
Originally Posted by
troopatroop
...
Who cares about speed if you KNOW you're going to win? Just have some pressure/answers and it's gg.
Fear the power of Darksteel Reactor.
Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
Discard (Thoughtseize, IoK, Hymn)
Counter (Force, Daze, etc.)
Sacrifice (Liliana, Innocent Blood, Diabolic Edict)
Massremoval (Terminus, EE)
Common ways to deal with TNN
Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
Discard - Counters, my own discard or drawing it of the top
Counter - Discard, my own counters, Aether Vial or Cavern of Souls
Sacrifice - HAVE OTHER CREATURES IN PLAY or all of the above
Massremoval (Terminate, EE) - Terminate? Errr? Stifle for EE/Deed. I'll give you Supreme Veredict.
Common ways to deal with your ways to deal with TNN
Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alderon666
Discard - Counters, my own discard or drawing it of the top
Counter - Discard, my own counters, Aether Vial or Cavern of Souls
Sacrifice - HAVE OTHER CREATURES IN PLAY or all of the above
Massremoval (Terminate, EE) - Terminate? Errr? Stifle for EE/Deed. I'll give you Supreme Veredict.
Common ways to deal with your ways to deal with TNN
He meant Terminus, but I like where your heads at. Keep in mind, Nemesis can act as an answer on the ground, so it's not hard to target Thoughtseize and Counters at the opponents answers. Supreme Verdict will always be a thing, but Nemesis alone can demand the 1 for 1. I for one will be playing this guy in a U/B Team America shell, with Confidant and Snapcaster. Sinkhole now actually matters, giving you pseudo acceleration, and facilitating unbeatable openings. Turn 1 Delver, Turn 2 Sinkhole, Turn 3 Nemesis on the play is all I want from life.
At least decks with >15 creatures don't need Tropical Islands anymore. Goyf and Trop is huge money for 8 cards.
Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
In other news people got unretarded and aren't paying $60+ for this guy on Ebay anymore. Looks like he's a $35ish card for the time being likely to go lower once boxes get opened.
Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
Seems like Sword of Fire and Ice will make a major comeback. :) *undusts*
Re: [SCD] Identity Nemesis
Quote:
Originally Posted by
troopatroop
If anything positive is taken from this guy, it's that the doors have been opened for even more powerful dudes from these commander sets. If they circumvent standard, and give us more powerful cards, I think the game could find more depth. Unfortunately, with only 1 new powerhouse, alot of depth was immediately axed.
Incorrect. Powercreep =/= depth. (If we consider this creature to be an example of powercreep. I doubt it. Imho it's stupid, but it's not extremely powerful...)
