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echoing truthQuote:
Originally Posted by komondor
rushing river
wipe away
rebuild
snap
hurkyl's recall
echoing truth might be the best depending on what you want it for because it removes all tokens too. I'm really glad to hear that stifle is working as expected. Also, really happy to be able to put seedier steppe back into the deck.
I think I'm going to try the following this Thursday and see how it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
Lands
4 Dark Depths
4 Polluted Delta
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
3 Urborg
1 Island
1 Maze of Ith
Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Spell Pierce
4 Lotus Petal
3 Stifle
4 Preordain
1 Treasure Cruise
Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Not of this World
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Duress
2 Wipe Away
1 Blue Elemental Blast
I took most of Brad Nelson's blue base for Sneak Attack. I actually think that Lotus Petal will be really good in this deck since everything is 1 or 2 mana. I think Cruise will be a lot better in this than the BUG version so I'm going to try one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by komondor
I like what you have going on in this list. It's similar to what i would have drafted up. I think having the lotus petals is ok, but I'm not sold on them. I do like that they add to the grave count for delve, however i wish that i had more treasure cruises. Id immediately cut 1 preordain for at least 1 more treasure cruise, possibly 2. So far everything else is going well. I don't miss crop rotation terribly which I'm surprised about.
Maze of ith doesn't seem great because you can't tutor for it but it is nice when it shows up. When it does you can stage it to buy time too.
Well... I cut the Maze and 1 Preordain for 2 more TCs and then it got banned. ha! After putting the Preordain back I'm not sure what I should do with the other 2 slots. 2 Duress? 2 Dig Through Time? Maybe 1 of each. Maybe a DTT + NOTW. Possibly the 4th Stifle. Thoughts?Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
i was thinking that if you are playing the UB version you could easily play Dig in treasure cruise's spot since everything produces blue now. The thing about dig is that its almost a tutor in itself. So while TC could prove fruitless Dig is significantly less likely to do so. If you need to wait a turn to find protection dig is the better choice, and now the only one.Quote:
Originally Posted by komondor
I do know that now since TC is banned Post will be on the rise which is bad for us. Maybe with the UB shell it won't be terrible.
So just gold fishing I have decided there are too many lands. So the current diff from what I posted is.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
-1 Maze of Ith
-1 Urborg
-1 Thespian's Stage
-1 TC
+1 Duress
+3 Dig Through Time
U/B was pretty bad. Just couldn't find depths sometimes and then you were cantripping all day doing nothing in reality. Going to try Mono-B next. Thought it seemed fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by komondor
Lands
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland
8 Swamp
Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Expedition Map
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana Vess
4 Dark Confidant
Sideboard
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Not of this World
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Engineered Plague
3 Mindbreak Trap
Some other cards I've tossed around are Funeral Charm, Spinning Darkness, and Leyline.
here is my latest list :
The main change is the switch between reb and carpet of flowers this open the side option of slaughter games
which I dismissed before because of the 4 mana casting cost but with flower's power it can be hard card as soon as turn 2
against show and tell/ant decks.
I have been happy with both reb and carpet main for now.
Obviously without the ratchet bomb in side the painter's matchup and decks with side needle are a little more problematic ;
but with carpet U.decks with blood moon side are no more problematic.
I think the list in the open thread is ok but if you expect lot of miracle.deck the following list is way better.
Also the one off creeping tar is awesome against stoneblade and miracle.( don't forget to copy it with stage before attacking so that you always one backup).
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mana Confluence
4 Copperline Gorge
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Sejiri Steppe
2 Maze of Ith
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Pithing Needle
4 Expedition Map
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Library
2 Duress
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Creeping Tar Pit
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
After this coming Thursday I was planning on going back to RGB and will give this a try. I will say that without the blue I will miss when I was on the draw and I forced t1 DRS, layed a Urborg and thoughtseized, forced t2 goyf, then dropped depths and hexmage. haha. The biggest problem with the blue is that the cantrips allow speculative keeps too easily and the rgb mulligans so amazingly to where you don't get blown out with speculative keeps. There was a game where I DTT'd twice and cast 6 other cantrips and couldn't find my first depths.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
How's the 1 of SDT? Is it basically just Sylvan #5?
Take the slot off gemstone mine 2nd, I have been happy with it. Colorless mana can be used to find whatever you need.Quote:
How's the 1 of SDT? Is it basically just Sylvan #5?
Though I don't want more. One is fine.
I'm surprised you thought U/B was pretty bad. I enjoyed it. I really like that tempo style deck. If you are looking for a tutor U/B actually has one of the best. Lim-Dûl's Vault. Also, if you are having trouble finding the combo in blue, black won't be any better. Furthermore, black has less access to removal. although liliana can lock a lot of games down if opponent sticks something other than a creature you could be in trouble. For example, ensnaring bridge.Quote:
Originally Posted by komondor
//Artifact (4)
4 Lotus Petal
//Creature (4)
4 Vampire Hexmage
//Instant (15)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Spell Pierce
//Sorcery (15)
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
//Land (22)
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Dark Depths
4 Polluted Delta
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
3 Thespian's Stage
3 Underground Sea
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Envelop
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Not of This World
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
If you aren't running Lim-dul's Vault, than you're doing it wrong. This card can have you cycle through most of your deck and is bananas in a two card combo deck.
With Cruise banned, I've been using 3 Hymn and it's very good as well, now that the only form or amazing card advantage is Vision. Thoughts on this build? I don't love lotus petal but am not sure what to replace it with.
Probably more of a results oriented thinking, which is incorrect. I really just didn't like cantripping and never hitting Depths.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
That's interesting. I completely forgot Lim-dul's Vault was a card but it does seem pretty sweet. Maybe I'll have to give that build a try.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhyrexianPossum
Any more testing/results on the original deck or the blue build? I've moved away from this deck lately to give Angel Prison a try, but I wanted to check back in with the group to see if there has been any further progess or groundbreaking ideas.
Guys, quick and small question, looking for a deck to recommend to a buddy.
How good would this deck (the one in the original post / primer) be in a meta circling around Miracles / ANT-TES / Delver variants , with the odd Stoneblade or Reanimator?
Thanks.
it would do poorly. ant-tes is the weakest matchup, and miracles is like a ~45% chance of winning. Delver and stonewalled are fine matches but reanimated is sometimes faster and its not a great matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmlima
No updates from me unfortunately. I've kinda halted testing for a while but the last time I did I was really enjoying the UB version. I didn't seem to have the same digging issues that had been previously mentioned. Lim-dul's vault helps a lot because its also a blue card and is instant speed. Although it doesn't put a card in your hand, which i really don't like, it can set you up if you need to draw a sequence of cards. Keep in mind that Expedition map is colorless and can be run in the deck as a tutor. It would make a good turn 2 play and you can keep mana open to counterspell or stifle something.Quote:
Originally Posted by TLK
I actually enjoy playing this version more because the deck is almost entirely disruption. The last version I was testing is below. I cut the lotus petals because they are inflexible. They only accelerate, but if there is nothing to accelerate into then its just wasted. Running additional disruption like discard / stifle / counters allows you to slow them down which would effectively yield the same result but with alternative uses.
Comparing this list to Adrieng's list in the OP they both run 6 discards spells. The UB version has 14 as opposed to 16 (in the op) draw / tutor / digging spells. It runs stifle over pithing needle so where pithing needle would get destroyed stifle can't. The downside is having mana open to cast it when you need it. It turned the conditional REB's into FOW and spell pierces to have better defense against other combo decks. The downside was that it gave up some utility lands like sejiri steppe to make that happen. Hopefully the counterspells will be able to defend against the same cards as senjiri with a slightly broader application.
With the discard and counterspells, surgical extraction is really nice. It serves multiple uses. Its grave hate, it can seal a victory against a combo deck, or remove all swords to plowshares from opponents deck if you discarded one early and they likely drew another. Additionally, the list below uses 23 blue cards so pitching to FOW isn't an issue. This deck does have a higher player skill requirement so if you are not as familiar with the format or used to playing a blue deck you will probably find yourself at a disadvantage until you learn all the correct plays. The threat of blue alone will stall players giving you time to make land drops and steal victories. Often when a player sees tempo cards like spell pierce and stifle they also think of daze, and while it not a card we are running it can delay them and they may try to play around it even if they have not seen it. I've thought of adding just 1 or two spell snares to see how they do. Although spell snare does not counter cards that we are directly concerned with it is a good tempo card and serves as a HARD counter where spell pierce would otherwise fail. If your meta is more aggro, i would recommend playing some because it hits several threats that can really shorten the game against us such as price of progress, tarmogoyf, hymn to tourach, counterbalance, thalia, and others.
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Lim-Dûl's Vault
3 Expedition Map
4 Vampire Hexmage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
4 Polluted Delta
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Maze of Ith
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Wipe Away <--- needs to be something else
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast <---- seems out of place but helps
SB: 2 Not of This World
sorry guys, i have a habit of posting and then making several edits to my original post...
Except for storm and reanimator my current list would do quite well ;Quote:
Guys, quick and small question, looking for a deck to recommend to a buddy.
How good would this deck (the one in the original post / primer) be in a meta circling around Miracles / ANT-TES / Delver variants , with the odd Stoneblade or Reanimator?
Thanks.
delver.decks and stoneblade are esay matchup
Miracle is ok after side if you play the carpetOfFlowers.version with side slaughter games+creeping tar
Reanimator is even I mean UB is even BR is unwinnable.
Storm is hard.
Cutting green for blue is a total non sense ; in green you have one mana vampire tutor that puts into play (crop rotation)
two mana demonic tutor sylvan scrying and two mana sylvan library.
Vampiric tutor and demonic tutor are available in dark depth and that's so unfair !!!
I went back to two ratchet bomb after facing the needle problem when sideboarding against delver.decks (rug tempo/Bug tempo/elves) ;
I do need an answer to needle but on the other side I don't want dead cards such as krosan grip and grudge.
The slaughter games+creeping tar side destroys miracle after side. The deck is right now really well positionned.
4 Mana Confluence
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Copperline Gorge
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Maze of Ith
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Sejiri Steppe
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Duress
4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Library
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Crop Rotation
4 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Creeping Tar Pit
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
I agree that green has the perfect tutors. The issue is that it doesn't have good defense and mixing BUG colors into a fetch land manabase simply was not working.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
i saw this on eldrazi forums and thought it might be of use here.
Mikokoro, Center of the Sea, I came to the simple realization today, beats Infernal tutor, giving you a Crop rotate-able answer to both Past in Flames (assuming you run bojuka bog) and hellbent Infernal tutor. The card also can dig you out of a rut when your eye of Ugin has been blasted and you need a post-titan way of winning the game. Since you can cast everything in your deck, them also getting a card is less significant.
Some niche plays with it also:
Against Spirit of the Labyrinth, activating it on their turn draws only you a card.
Against Omnishow, you have the ability to either win a lethal clash or draw them out, although this is only realistic with Trinisphere/Sphere effects, a card I am investigating on the main.
Against ANT, if they are resolving an infernal tutor the game is most likely over. ANT decks on average run ~13 instants, which is about ~20% of their deck. The mikoro should work 80% of the time against ANT which would justify the inclusion in my opinion.
I don't see myself playing this maindeck ; maybe in side.
Against omni it des nothing they have cuning wish for trickbind anyway.Quote:
Against Spirit of the Labyrinth, activating it on their turn draws only you a card.
Against Omnishow, you have the ability to either win a lethal clash or draw them out, although this is only realistic with Trinisphere/Sphere effects, a card I am investigating on the main.
Against ANT, if they are resolving an infernal tutor the game is most likely over. ANT decks on average run ~13 instants, which is about ~20% of their deck. The mikoro should work 80% of the time against ANT which would justify the inclusion in my opinion.
Against ANT I didn't understand very well so they crack led in resp to IT and you put mikoro into the stack so that they don't have hellbent right ?
might be ok but maybe a little too focused.