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This is Bill Stark again. I wanted to drop by to point out I wrote a primer on building the aggro black deck I played at Grand Prix Columbus. You can find it here over on Londes. Some of the choices I made have received a lot of attention here, so I thought it might be useful for people to read what I was thinking.
I'm not sure how good the archetype is now that the format is so radically different, but I think there is room for it to exist, particularly since Replenish returns...
-Bill
I am shamelessly netdecking your build, for what it's worth, and plan to see how it goes and tweak it from there. My only difference is that I skipped Wasteland in favor of additional swamps to maximize the abilities of the creature base, and dumped Serum Powder for Cabal Therapy. I'd be curious to know what you thought about those changes, and what your opinion on Dystopia in place of Cursed Scroll might be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Stark
I think it has a lot of game in the modern metagame. 12 discard main with access to 16 in board is a strong disruption package and makes it pretty good against most combo decks. 4 Plagues and 4 Jittes backed up by 8 :b:-for-2/2 guys gives it a playable game against Goblins. There's also enough disruption and speed to give it a fighting chance against control decks. (I'm curious to know if the questionable control match was a large reason you included Cursed Scroll for reach, or if it was mostly for Fish-style decks.)
Quoting Bill Stark's Black Aggro Primer:
"An astute forumite and Legacy player, presumably, at The Source noted that I was actually using a creature shell from an old Hatred archetype that Mike Flores had once written about. Said poster, and forgive me for not having written down the name, was correct. This list did indeed start with Mike’s old Hatred creature base, slowly rotating out Hatred (too slow, believe it or not) and the Shadow creature base of Dauthi Slayer and Dauthi Horror for the slightly less fragile pump knights and additional disruption in the form of more handkill."
*Gasp* Dare I assume that Monsieur Stark is speaking of yours truly?Quote:
Originally Posted by eternaldarkness
I am actually also netdecking Bill Stark's list. I've dropped 4 Pump knights (the non-zombie ones) for 4 Negators as the deck already has a lot of inflatable (i'm using a really old term here) critters already. I've kept the wastelands, unlike Taco, and have dropped the unmasks for sinkholes. Unmask was really only used as a means to stop turn one Flash/Hulk-->win and hence is unneeded in the current format. Sinkhole/Wasteland are again invaluable disruption as the fundamental turn is no longer on turn 1 and 2cc spells that win the game are no longer a fact of life (sweeeet).
One Word: Goblins.
With 20 crt. Plan, your goblins matchup is absolutely horrible. I tried almost identical list until an year ago, and it the list itself did not stand up to the modern meta game. I also have to note that stark's original list cannot deal with enchantments and artifacts(assuming they resolve), which will be more prevalent than ever since replenish's back.
I'm a big fan of the deck, but traditional 20 creature Sui has following problems:
1. Even with Jitte, Goblins matchup is bad. Fanatic and some chump goblin stops your tempo, and they outdraw you in the lategame. Unless you have active Jitte on turn 2(with happens time to time), the matchup is very hard.
2. It cannot deal with resolved artifacts and enchantments. artifacts can be dealt with Keg/Null Rod or its like, but enchantment is impossible to deal with(unless you splash for white or something).
3. Pure board control, truffle shuffle or W control variant, just eats it. Fortuately, the decks are not very popular.
4. Threshold, especially one's with red. Their bigger creature and efficient removal is vary bad for you. You also lose to anything that packs more than 10 burns, namely R/x aggro and Burn(the worst matchup evAR).
5. the advent of TES and CRET belcher made combo matchups bit harder. when the Gamekeeper and Solidarity was all you have to worry about, combo was a free win.
These problems caused me to give up on the archetype. I still have it built(in fact, I own three sets of every suicide black cards just so I can build three of them), but I don't expect it to be better than tier two.
I'm currently working on B/w Sui that looks like Red Death with white, which has been very good to me. I'll probably be back to mono black suicide after I'm done with it, though.
EDIT: Now the flash's gone, Chalice will be back as primary combo hate, and that will pose another problem. Having to play against Chalice for 1 is not very fun.
1. thats why most sui decks pack 4x Plauge. I believe i have to reiterate, even if they run enchantment hate you have the practically game won if this hits the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by C.P.
2. What enchantments are you talking about. the only realy devastating enchantments i could think of are moat, humility, and solitary confinement... and these all die to dystopia.
3. yes board control is bad, but this is were discard realy shines, you will often rip all the WoG effects out of there hands before they can use them.
4. Dystopia/ yes UGR thresh is bad.
5. sui packs ALOT of combo hate maindeck and sideboard.
1. Plague is usually not fast enough if you run 20 land and they run port. Ritual + plague is good, but how often does that happen?Quote:
Originally Posted by technogeek5000
2. Moat, Spiritual Focus, Confinement, Ghostly prison, Elephant Grass. Of course they pack their own hate for distopia(seals and auras).
3. Landstill is not a problem, but things like truffle shuffle is bad. when their entire deck sweeps the board, their is not much that you can do.
4. Red is bad for Sui.
5. When they go tendrils, discard is very good, but ETW is bit worse. It's till favorable, but it is not a free win.
1. You're wrong. I'm 5-1 matches (10-5 games) against Goblins so far. Carnophage and Sarcomancy both deal with initial onslaughts from Lackey and company extremely well, and it's easy to win a game simply from turn one Carnophage, turn two Ritual/Jitte/Equip/Swing. Unmask is also a godsend in this matchup. Unmask lets you rip away Lackey, Vial, Hooligan, and Plague removal before they even get a move.Quote:
Originally Posted by C.P.
2. Again, you're wrong. Dystopia takes care of most problematic enchantments. Enchantments that aren't white or green and cause repeated problems are rare. Plus, Duress and Unmask save the day.
3. Granted. Every deck loses to something. Every now and then you can sneak enough speed and disruption to pull through, though. I suspect Eternaldarkness's build would have a slight advantage over mine here.
4. Red Threshold is tricky, but not impossible. A shade coming out with 4-5 mana lives through burn spells. Not to mention that my build packs both Dystopia and Leyline of the Void in sideboard. Oh, did I mention Duress? Good spell, Duress. White Threshold, however, is a fucking cakewalk.
5. Duress, Cabal Therapy, Unmask, Hymn to Tourach, Leyline of the Void, Engineered Plague. I might capitulate to turn one ETW's for 12 without the elusive Rit-Plague, but fast combo capitulates to me any time I win the die roll.
1. I'm playing against R/W and mono red that maindecks Pyrokinesis. I found the matchup to be pretty horrible, unless I get the jitte going. Though I admit my old build did not run and unmask maindeck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
2. I'm specifically talking about Enchantress, and they do not care about dystopia. I admit discard is good against them, but sometime's that's just no enough, especially with replenish back. Loam confinement also is in this category.
3, 4. agreed. Pumpknights(which I abandoned about 3 years ago) makes white thersh cakewalk. They should be pretty godly in WW matchup.
5. Agreed. as long as you win that die roll...
1. That would make things harder, yes. Still, Duress and Unmask should help against Pyrokinesis.Quote:
Originally Posted by C.P.
2. I'll have to hit lonelybaritone over the head with a club, drag him back to my cave, and make him test Enchantress against my build. I -think- I can beat it if I can figure out exactly what I'm doing. Dystopia isn't the only thing that hurts Enchantress. Engineered Plague on Enchantresses should help also, Leyline would stop Replenish if it's worth boarding in, and the discard and fast clock might keep Enchantress from being able to dig up Seals. Words of War could be an incredible bitch, though.
-Eternaldarkness, you were the person I was talking about (I'm sorry I didn't have your name written down, but nice job noticing that creature shell)
-Goblins and "red cards" are bad matchups. Powder + Plague was something I considered, as I said in the article, but I'm not really sure what's right.
-I also mentioned at some point Pithing Needle would have been pretty good over Powder in the board. I might still consider that.
-Artifacts and enchantments weren't really a concern, and your "answers" are all present in the form of disruption. CoP Black resolving definitely sucks, but sometimes you just have to hope for the best (using CoP Black as an unrealistic but demonstrative example). And I believe Leyline is your best bet against Replenish, even if they get 8 Seal of Cleansing if they want.
-Cutting some pump knights is probably correct in a newer format more devoid of Fish and White Weeniesque decks. I don't know that much about Legacy (right now), but upon re-evaluating the deck, I would look to those 8 creatures as being the "worst". It's possible the original hatred shell is the place to be.
-Furthermore, I think one very important factor to keep in mind is that you can't win every matchup or from every situation. Goblins is still a bad matchup, and if that particular deck is EVERYWHERE, then it's probably time to find a different deck to play. As I stated in the article, I really built the deck to beat Fish and Flash, and anything else was gravy. If Fish and Flash are no longer around, then it might be time to move on (though I think if Gush and Replenish returning impact the format as much as I think they might, the deck could remain viable)
-Finally, I don't like Dystopia as much as I like Scroll because Scroll was more flexible (could kill Fish creatures as well as providing reach against things like Landstill). However, the format has changed, as everyone keeps reiterating, so I leave it up to you stalwarts of Legacy to determine the correct course of action through testing, and look forward to checking back in with the format this August while covering the Legacy and Vintage Championships for WotC.
Thanks all,
Bill Stark
editor, Londes.com
(emphasis mine)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Stark
Isn't Gush still banned in legacy?
It has been my lifelong dream to T8 at Grand Prix with Suicide Black. Props and Slops at you for achieving it before I did. *bow*Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Stark
Replenish decks that I'm talking about does not rely on the card, they are more like enchantress decks that draw large volume of card to win. Leyline is not a good answer in such matchup, since it only hoses one and only card in the deck that acts as supplementary strategy. Also It probably does not have place in the deck, since flash is no more.
Enchantments will be a problem in this new meta, at least for a while for following reasons:
1. Replenish's back and People are eager to try it.
2. Goblins are on the top again and enchantments are very good against them.
I completely agree on the point about Red. The part of the reason that you were successful, I believe, is that flash got most of Red out of the format.
On the scroll, I really like the card in the deck. I sometimes drop jitte for them. I agree on keeping them around. Needle(or null rod) should be pretty helpful, as well. I'm not sure if I like serum powder(post Flash), but I never tried the card in the deck before, so I can't say much.
I have updated my sideboard to prepare for replenish decks (-2 contaigon, +2 dystopia as was suggested). So that would give me a sideboard of...
4 Eplauge
4 dystopia
3 null rod
3 Planar void
1 duress
I think this is the sideboard im going to bring to the 4x sea drake thing. This along with the new post flash build to my deck i think has a good matchup against alot of the decks you will see.
Goblins (favored): You have 8 zombies that answer lackey and trade with everything else they have. Confidant gives you a better mid/late game so you can probably beat them game 1.Post board is simple, either play zombies and try to get a plauge out as fast as possible. if you do, disrupt there hand and board so they wont be able to get rid of it. If you cant then play out like pre board.
UGW Thresh (red thresh is this except negators)(slightly favored): Pre board is not that great, what you want to do is try and prevent them from getting thresh and disrupt their mana base at the same time. Negators munch all their creatures so play him as fast as possible. Post board you will be playing like g1 except you have voids.
Iggy pop/TES/belcher(favored): Munch their hand and mana Sidebaord out all the dead removal and sidebaord in null rods (and voids for iggy). Its very easy to beat with more hate.
Enchantress, any other replenish decks (slightly favored): Discard and landkill are golden here. You want to play hymns, duresses, wastes, sinks, and hippies as fast as possible. Disrupting them is key here so they cant combo off. Dystopia basically wins the game because it will hit anything that escapes your other disruption.
Looks like a solid sideboard list technogeek. I still haven't thought up of a good list for my own Sui but I think that's the list I'm going to use as a starting point. My only change would be to maindeck the fourth duress.
I agree Goblins is a tough match but hardly unwinnable. Their problem cards are Goblin lackey and Ringleader since both can give the goblins player a powerful tempo boost/card advantage.
Anyone of our 1cc 2/2 bears can stop lackey but Ringleader is harder to answer.
Pre-board the card you really need to get online is Umezawa's jitte as this card absolutely rapes any form of aggro and can help you go toe to toe with Ringleaders. Post-board you got Engineered Plagues and Rituals to push the enchantment through Ports. Its actually much easier than it sounds since Wastelands do squat to Black Aggro (too many basics). My sideboard plan is to cut the maindeck sinkholes (subpar against goblins) for E-plagues. That should do the trick.
I'm also currently experimenting with Anwar's creature base, cutting the last of the pump knights for larger creatures. I'm currently using 3 Rotting Giants + 1 Wretched Anurid to see whether this will help the goblins match. 2cc 3/3s should prove invaluable for combat purposes.
Thanks for the mention Bill Stark! You are currently a god among us Sui Players here in the Philippines :laugh:
Edit: Concerning Hatred...why aren't we using this? It is probably too slow but as I recall, old Hatred builds ran full sets of Dark Rituals, Ancient Tombs, City of Traitors to get Hatred out turn 2 on the back of a turn one Critter with Unmask for protection. Could this build possibly work for Sui?
Lightning Bolt, Sword to plowshares, Daze, Force of Will. There are simply too many cheap disruption to hose it, even with duress + Unmask backup.Quote:
Originally Posted by eternaldarkness
Since paying X life is additional cost, you will lose if something does not go well. And it being 5 mana is just simply too slow and hard to protect. The old Hatred Sui ran broken things like consultation, so protecting your hatred much easier. I also have to remind you that Hatred is good only if you run 8 shadow creatures, which are not amazing in this format.
While I personally hate Hatred (ironic, no?), one of my teammates actually runs it. It pitches to Unmask in a pinch, and you run enough hand-searching discard to know if it's safe or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by eternaldarkness
I used to run hatred in my old sui build and it worked quite well. I had 8 zombies at the time and ran 3 culling the weak to get hatred out fast enough. Though i agree with C.P., there are to many ways for hatred to backfire... also revealing it to confidant always hurt. I replaced them with more creatures and control and it made my list alot more consistent.
Hatred and Confidant don't belong in the same deck, and not just because of their non-synergy, dissynergy, or just plain suckiness together. It's more of a philosophy thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by technogeek5000
Confidant aims to win games by generating you card advantage to further your disruption and board position.
Hatred fits in the more suicidal, aggresive scheme, and aims to hit you with a single, quick killing blow.
Both cards use your life total as a resource to do it.
Since we're all back to old suicide build and even hatred is being discussed, I figured that I'll share my experience with some of the obscure suicide black cards that I tried for past 6 years, just for some idea.
Kaervek's Spite: I played 2 in maindeck for quite a while(before I tried sinkhole). It is all or nothing card like Hatred, but it is cheaper and easier to protect. You don't need creatures to make it work, as well.
Spoils of Vault, Grave pact, Infernal Tutor, Plunge into Darkness :Tried these for old Consultation spot. All of them are not too bad, but I ended up cutting them for lower land count and higher threat density.
Graveborn Muse :Played as anti control weapon. Dark Confidant is about bazillion times better, though.
Bad Moon, Sinister Strength, Unholy Strength: Bad moon is the best of these, of course. I cut these because of control matchup, but it might be worth testing against modern aggro. Who knows?
Twisted Experiment, Riot Spikes : Serves double duty as removal and extra damage. Dauthi Slayer + TE is fun.
Snuff Out, Spinning Darkness, Contagion: 'Free' removals. Snuff Out was very useful in Dragon infested Environment. Spinning Darkness is bad with bob, but very useful in race situations.
Skittering Skirge, Skittering Horror: Not bad, especially if your creature count is low.
Mesmeric Fiend: There was a time when I hated dragon so much.
Hidden Horror, Mercenary Knight: I liked them when my deck packed unearth and stuff. God, that was long ago.
I admit most of things in the list is janky and not worth testing, but I thought throwing out bunch of idea can't be bad. I would not get into Jankier ones.:wink:
Yeah on second thought Hatred does seem too easily disrupted. Even with Unmask+duress. I forgot that old builds relied on demonic consultation and the lack of which is a severe blow to the archetype.
@C.P: I'm fooling around with some of the cards you mentioned. Kaervek's Spite is iffy since it was mostly used in the old days to get around CIPT: Black (not a common occurrence nowadays) and on the back of demonic consultation (banned). You don't draw it often enough to make a difference and even if you draw it, it is usually a win more card.
The most promising card you mentioned is Skittering Skirge. Like I said before, I'm currently trying out different creatures to replace the last 4 remaining pump knights in the main. I tried out 3 Rotting Giant+1 Wretched Anurid but right now I'm thinking of replacing 1 Rotting Giant and 1 Wretched Anurid for 2 Skittering Skirges. Thoughts?