[Deck] The Truffle Shuffle

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Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG

If you already have a Top in play, can't you use it with your shuffle effects to shuffle away other Tops?

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When I used to play Shuffle and I had a Top in hand and one in play, I'd tap the 1 in play to draw a card, put the Top on...top of my library, and then use a shuffle effect and get rid of it. Then play the one in my hand. But 3 is just right. I literally hated drawing multiple Tops throughout any game. I can't imagine being happy with 4 Tops. It's a card that helps filter your draw, but sucks in multiples and is completely useless beyond the first (Unless it was somehow destroyed), so why would you want 4? Running 3 pretty much ensures you'll hit one when you need to in the early turns.

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Originally Posted by Anarky87

When I used to play Shuffle and I had a Top in hand and one in play, I'd tap the 1 in play to draw a card, put the Top on...top of my library, and then use a shuffle effect and get rid of it. Then play the one in my hand. But 3 is just right. I literally hated drawing multiple Tops throughout any game. I can't imagine being happy with 4 Tops. It's a card that helps filter your draw, but sucks in multiples and is completely useless beyond the first (Unless it was somehow destroyed), so why would you want 4? Running 3 pretty much ensures you'll hit one when you need to in the early turns.

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How are you drawing a Top if you already had one in play? This is possible only if you forgot to use the Top to stack your draws, or if there is a Needle on Top.

Even if you do draw another one, you can shuffle it away very easily, as you mentioned, unless your Top is disabled somehow.

The issue of multiples arises when you have a situation with a Top in play, and either two Tops on top of your library with no shuffle effect, or two basic lands and a Top on top of your library. Does running one less top really reduce the odds of this happening enough that you are willing to run the risk of not drawing it?

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Originally Posted by dre4m

How are you drawing a Top if you already had one in play? This is possible only if you forgot to use the Top to stack your draws, or if there is a Needle on Top.

Even if you do draw another one, you can shuffle it away very easily, as you mentioned, unless your Top is disabled somehow.

The issue of multiples arises when you have a situation with a Top in play, and either two Tops on top of your library with no shuffle effect, or two basic lands and a Top on top of your library. Does running one less top really reduce the odds of this happening enough that you are willing to run the risk of not drawing it?

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Actually, yeah, it is for me. Because when I played 3, I saw them exactly when I needed them. And if not in the early game, I'd see one in the mid/late game where I'd play it and start using it. I know that I would not like 4 in the MD, I think that's too many. 3 has always been the right number when I've played the deck and I've never wanted 4, nor felt like my deck was shitting on me because I needed a 4th Top.

The deck has a lot of strength that even if you have a game where you don't see it first turn, your hands will be strong enough to carry you through till you find it. I've beaten Solidarity before without a Top in play, I've beaten Landstill before without Top (Got countered), and quite a few other decks without the need of Top. I think playing with 3 is the correct choice, imo.

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Originally Posted by Anarky87

Actually, yeah, it is for me. Because when I played 3, I saw them exactly when I needed them. And if not in the early game, I'd see one in the mid/late game where I'd play it and start using it. I know that I would not like 4 in the MD, I think that's too many. 3 has always been the right number when I've played the deck and I've never wanted 4, nor felt like my deck was shitting on me because I needed a 4th Top.

The deck has a lot of strength that even if you have a game where you don't see it first turn, your hands will be strong enough to carry you through till you find it. I've beaten Solidarity before without a Top in play, I've beaten Landstill before without Top (Got countered), and quite a few other decks without the need of Top. I think playing with 3 is the correct choice, imo.

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Well, unfortunately, this just forces me to admit that, as far as most 'good' magic players go, I am on the extreme low end of the luck spectrum. So, cards that increase your luck relative to your library, like Divining Top, are my best friends, and I consequently need to maximize my odds of drawing them. It worked for me the first GPT that I played 4 Tops. I never drew it consistently enough when I played 3, and I've never had problems getting rid of spares with all the deck's shuffle.

Hi boys. I found this deck on another website, but it had a different name. Anyway, there are only a few cards that are different so I will post the deck.

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
2 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Living Wish
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Gigapede
4 Loxodon Hierarch
3 Eternal Dragon
1 Savannah
4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Plains

board:
4 Duress
2 Damnation
1 Withered Wretch
1 Bane of the Living
1 Exalter Angel
4 Glowrider
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Godless Shrine

Is Glittering Wish better than Living Wish? Even the board choices related to them are similar in purpose. I can't decide, but maybe there is a reason I haven't thought of. I like the Nimble Mongoose, and I noticed that none of you are using it. It is really good against Goblins early, which I figure is a hard matchup. And it is good against just about everyone in the late game. Have you tried it and decided against it?

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Originally Posted by SouthAlly

Is Glittering Wish better than Living Wish? Even the board choices related to them are similar in purpose. I can't decide, but maybe there is a reason I haven't thought of. I like the Nimble Mongoose, and I noticed that none of you are using it. It is really good against Goblins early, which I figure is a hard matchup. And it is good against just about everyone in the late game. Have you tried it and decided against it?

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Glittering Wish is better than Living Wish because it allows access to a much better and larger wishboard, including Vindicate, Culling Sun, Castigate, Deed, or many other cards that Living Wish cannot find. Mongoose is bad in Truffle Shuffle because you don't want to play creatures early on, because they will die to your own board-sweeping. 1cc creatures in particular are vulnerable. It also dies to lackey until you get threshold, which will probably not be until turn 4 or so. In the late game, it is worse than Gigapede.

As for your deck itself, the additional LD doesn't really help your strategy that much, and Eternal dragon has been cut for Krosan Tusker because it is just plain better. You are also missing Sensei's Divining Top, which is one of the better cards in the deck, and maindeck Duress, which is a huge asset in the combo matchups.

You want the 4 Duress MD, not in the board. Combo is a very hard matchup for Truffle, and the 4 Duress is very important. One of the most important cards for Glittering Wish to go for is Dueling Grounds against goblins. It lets you win game 1 of a tough matchup.

@Dre4m, Cait Sith hit the nail right on the head there, pretty much with everything she said. Counterbalance was also becoming a very popular card in Thresh, BEFORE Flash was errata'd. Jesse has been playing it in Red Thresh for a while now, and Slay made top 8 of Kadi's with Countertop in his deck. It was good in Flash.format also, but it will stay popular even after June 20. Again, to go with Cait, I figured out 3 was the right number at GenCon last year. Against thresh you want Duress/Therapy turn 1, and against gobs you want STP if you are on the draw, you also don't want to crack a fetch in case of Waste if you can help it.

Now, lets stop bitching about the number of tops to play and get to the rest of the deck. If you wanna play 4, play 4, if you wanna play 3, play 3. This is obviously going nowhere.

@ SouthAlly. That deck is called Dirt and although it superficially resembles Truffle the strategies are different. Ive tried both and found Truffle to be better because it doesnt bother with the Sinkholes and its manabase isnt ruined by Wasteland. Basically, the LD only helps in matchups that are already good for you and does little to help your bad matchups (combo). IMO Wasteland is pretty useless as you are a slow control deck and you will never get much from the tempo gain. Also, colorless mana producers are utter crap in such a mana intensive deck.

Took some time off from the deck, but I recently came back to it. Most other decks bore me right now, so I thought I'd give this a whirl again. My current list:

4x Duress
4x Hymn To Tourach
4x Swords To Plowshares
4x Vindicate
4x Pernicious Deed
3x Loxodon Hierarch
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Damnation
2x Eternal Witness
2x Gaea's Blessing
2x Krosan Tusker
1x Gigapede
1x Wrath Of God
1x Grave-Shell Scarab

4x Bayou
3x Savannah
3x Scrubland
3x Windswept Heath
1x Bloodstained Mire
3x Forest
3x Plains
3x Swamp

SB:
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Funeral Charm
4x Gerrard's Verdict/Castigate
3x Dueling Grounds


A couple of notes:

1. I do not like Glittering Wish in the deck. I tried it and it was just too slow and not really very efficient.
2. The fetch count is a little low, but I would probably only add maybe one more Mire/Delta, cutting a Bayou.
3. The sideboard looks odd, but I like to be able to fight combo, which is obviously the worst matchup, and Dueling Grounds really help with both EtW combo and Goblins. I've found that game 1 against Goblins isn't all that bad, but cards like Duress and Hymn are really bad against them most of the time, so I swap those out for Funeral Charm, Dueling Grounds, and one of the Verdict/Castigate slots. Funeral Charm is multi-purpose, as it kills Lackey on the draw, and also can come in for pseudo-dead cards in the combo matchups as an additional discard spell. The Verdict slot should almost certainly be Castigate, as forcing them to pitch 2 irrelevant cards is usually not stellar, and Castigate can hit whatever you need it to hit; Verdict is better in a couple of random matchups, but I think Castigate is much better overall.

Anyway, I've given some thought to playing this at GenCon, mainly because every other deck puts me to sleep at this point. I am just not sure. We'll see.

I recently played in a local Legacy tournament and placed 1st with a variant of the Truffle Shuffle. It started out as a four color build, but I soon realized it had to be paired down. Here's my list for starters:

Creatures:
2 Exalted Angel
2 Yavimaya Elder
2 Grave-Shell Scarab
2 Eternal Witness
1 Eternal Dragon
3 Wall of blossoms

Instant:
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Putrefy

Sorc/Other:
4 Duress
4 Hymmn
3 Wrath
3 Deed
2 Vindicate
3 Sensei’s Diving Top

Land
4 Windswept heath
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrub
4 bayou
3 Savannah
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 forest

SB:
This was metaed for the random aggro faced, not particularly worth noting but did include cards normally useless like Dead of Night and Sharazzad to screw with people.

I really found Yavimaya elder to be amazing. Yes hes slow, but when dropped he can wait around, chump block and tutor two basics plus draw you a card. The down side to the ol' druid is the double green.

Wall of Blossoms = Amazing. A turn two cantrip that blocks...what could you want more? I found WoB to be a mvp in overcomming random Kamigawa block creatures and other odities. Not to mention WoB also stops many guys in Gobbos and those pesky attacking Mages!

My meta is not tricked our or highly competitive. Mostly casual...so my success here may not mean a thing. But I thought I would share. Thanks.

P.S. I played putrefy because I couldnt find two more vindicates :)

I played this list yesterday;

4x Bayou
4x Scrubland
3x Savannah
4x Windswept Heath
2x Polluted Delta
1x Bloodstained Mire (should've been the third Delta)
2x Forest
2x Swamp
1x Plains

2x Gigapede
1x Haunting Echoes

3x Krosan Tusker
4x Eternal Witness
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Glittering Wish

4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Condemn
2x Chainer's Edict
3x Vindicate
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Crime/Punishment
3x Damnation

sb:
4x Engineered Plague
3x Tormod's Crypt
1x Grave-Shell Scarab
1x Angel of Despair (might've been better as Death Grasp or Spiritmonger
1x Crime/Punishment
1x Loxodon Hierarch
1x Dueling Ground
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Vindicate
1x Gerrard's Verdict


Round 1 I get paired against Alix playing Breakfast.
Game 1 I win with Deed, Punishment to kill two Vials, and StP in the hand backup. Game 2 I side out Condemn/Chainer's Edict + Damnation for the 7 relevant spells, and find out he's playing Sutured Ghoul. Game 3 I side out the Vindicates + Haunting Echoes for the Edicts and Condemns after he wins G2 with first turn En-Kor into third turn win. It doesn't matter as I draw no early action, a turn 3 Engineered Plague gets Forced, and he wins on turn three.

Round 2 I get paired against Dave Gearhart playing Life from the Loam.
We both get gamelosses for misregistered decks. I win in sudden death because he can't draw a Devastating Dreams for a billion years.

Round 3, Zuhair with Gagomyl
Game 1 a Hymn takes out one land plus the Top I should have dropped instead of waiting to StP his first turn Kird Ape. He Wastelands another source and I fail to draw more mana.
Game 2 I have to mulligan to five just to find anylands. I keep a decent hand, but he gets double Hymn followed by Wasteland.

Round 4, I get paired against Zach with TES.
I forget the exact sequence of these games. I win one of them by nuking EtW tokens, he wins two with Tendrils.

I drop 1-3 and go to the Frog tournament.

Round 1: ShaqFu/Jon with Full Slogger (Empty the Slogger minus the Empty)
This matchup is impossibly ridiculously hard for them. The only real threat is Magus of the Moon, but as long as you know you have to play around it, you're good, just grab basics. I run more removal than he runs creatures. Game two I beat him to death with a Crime'd Arc-Slogger of my own.

Round 2: Phil Soulize with Ugrb Thresh
This matchup should be almost as good as Full Slogger, normally. Game 2 I fail to draw a third land... ever, however. And game 3 He plays a Mongoose and gets early action Counterbalance/Top, rendering the StP and Condemn in my hand dead. A Vindicate on Counterbalance gets Forced, and he hardcasts Confidant. He spends the next three turns Counterspelling, Counterspelling, Force of Willing and Counterspelling all my various answers, going through 5/7 of his hardcounters in about 18 cards.

Round 3: John something. Don't know him that well. With almost manaless Friggorid.
Game 1 is closer than I expect, but I lose for lack of enough answers. Game 2 and 3 Crypt + Plague become quite useful. I win game 2 with a Crime'd Street Wraith that lets me end it in time to also finish game three on turn three after five turns have been called. I had fairly lucky draws this game. It might've been better to concede game 1 and move on, although I always had randomly topdecking Haunting Echoes possibilities.

Top 8: Elan (I think? It was something like that. Memory's terrible) playing "Just-getting-back-into-the-game" White Weenie.
I've got to say that his deck was heads and shoulders above the things I was playing when I first got back into Magic. He was way overloaded on 1-drops, a little mana light, and had too many pump-my-army-of-dorks spells (especially in a matchup where he can't keep an army around ever), but he was actually pretty decent, which apparently won him two rounds in the Swiss. But, even an optimal white weenie deck isn't going to be very good against Truffle Shuffle unless it runs Cataclysm or Armageddon main. We spend some time going over his deck with my making some suggestions, and then I go pick up an Akroma for Pile.

If anyone wants to pick this deck up, I would advise clearing out the three drop somehow, as it's by far the most clogged. I know that it must be tempting to cut Tusker, but I was happy with him all day, as the deck wants both card advantage and land. And I won several games beating down with him. I think Vindicate might be the best card to cut, actually, as Crime/Punishment covers many of it's abilities. I'd lose the ability to randomly win games with Recurring LD with Witnesses, but that might be worth clearing up the curve.

I didn't miss the discard at all, but that might have more to do with the metagame. If it slows down it might be right to bring discard back.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

I played this list yesterday;
If anyone wants to pick this deck up, I would advise clearing out the three drop somehow, as it's by far the most clogged. I know that it must be tempting to cut Tusker, but I was happy with him all day, as the deck wants both card advantage and land. And I won several games beating down with him. I think Vindicate might be the best card to cut, actually, as Crime/Punishment covers many of it's abilities. I'd lose the ability to randomly win games with Recurring LD with Witnesses, but that might be worth clearing up the curve.

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Well, I never liked Krosan Tusker, isn't Eternal Dragon finding lands and being card advantage anyway while filling the 2cc curve?

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

I didn't miss the discard at all, but that might have more to do with the metagame. If it slows down it might be right to bring discard back.

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I never liked duress too (as being a dead card in some matchups and the fact your 1CC curve is already filled up with cards), but i find hymn important in making early card advantage.

I'm taking up this deck as my first control deck (and i like it much), as I'm usually a combo player. I'm just bad with anything non-combo, so be patient if my comments were already discussed or just suck.

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

Well, I never liked Krosan Tusker, isn't Eternal Dragon finding lands and being card advantage anyway while filling the 2cc curve?



I never liked duress too (as being a dead card in some matchups and the fact your 1CC curve is already filled up with cards), but i find hymn important in making early card advantage.

I'm taking up this deck as my first control deck (and i like it much), as I'm usually a combo player. I'm just bad with anything non-combo, so be patient if my comments were already discussed or just suck.

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Personally, I think that I'd rather be able to choose which card I'm getting rid of versus just strict card advantage over the opponent in a random fashion. I agree, that against aggro its going to be a subpar card. Cabal Therapy might be better for you too, it at least hits creatures if you know what your playing against, and sac'ing an E-Witness to recast it isnt a bad play at all.

Cutting Duress in the current field is simply a bad idea. Goblins will continue to be a hard matchup for this deck, but cutting Duress is not the answer. It is the single best anti-combo card available to you in these colors. Combo is traditionally the hardest matchup facing you, and it is still very good against control.

I was curious to see if anyone had made up any alternate side boards, either for legacy, casual or even using unhinged cards.

I was looking at an extended version of a glittering wish sideboard and it did run castigate

What are the communities thoughts on alternate boards?

Also someone mention putting genesis main to recur the witnesses

After playing in the Legacy Champs last weekend, I have decided that I will no longer play Hymn to Tourach unless there is something specific in the metagame that "requires" it. Castigate out of the SB was better overall for me by a wide margin, and Hymn, while relevant, puts it in the hands of chance of whether or not you will get a relevant card from their hand, while Castigate does not. I'd rather play Castigate in the MD because it has just been much better for me.

In addition, I also played Funeral Charm in the SB and it was very strong for me all day. It kills Lackey, can disrupt opponents, and is totally unexpected. I managed to draw an otherwise unwinnable game against Aluren due to the Charm (and I would have won if I'd had 2-3 more turns), and it helped out a couple of other times as well.

I plan on writing a report of some kind with the list I played (finished 20th, with my 2 losses being guys who finished 4th and 9th, respectively), so if you care, keep an eye out for it in a day or two.

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Originally Posted by TheAardvark

After playing in the Legacy Champs last weekend, I have decided that I will no longer play Hymn to Tourach unless there is something specific in the metagame that "requires" it. Castigate out of the SB was better overall for me by a wide margin, and Hymn, while relevant, puts it in the hands of chance of whether or not you will get a relevant card from their hand, while Castigate does not. I'd rather play Castigate in the MD because it has just been much better for me.

In addition, I also played Funeral Charm in the SB and it was very strong for me all day. It kills Lackey, can disrupt opponents, and is totally unexpected. I managed to draw an otherwise unwinnable game against Aluren due to the Charm (and I would have won if I'd had 2-3 more turns), and it helped out a couple of other times as well.

I plan on writing a report of some kind with the list I played (finished 20th, with my 2 losses being guys who finished 4th and 9th, respectively), so if you care, keep an eye out for it in a day or two.

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It was nice playing you, you were a fun opponent. I really wished I had taken notes to do a report.

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Originally Posted by Finn

Cutting Duress in the current field is simply a bad idea. Goblins will continue to be a hard matchup for this deck, but cutting Duress is not the answer. It is the single best anti-combo card available to you in these colors. Combo is traditionally the hardest matchup facing you, and it is still very good against control.

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A lot of combo is relying heavily on EtW, and some of it goes off before Duress/Hymn. Some more depends on permanents, such as Breakfast, where the extra removal's been plenty helpful. I'm not 100% sold on the no-discard route either, but for right now I think it's interesting to try, and there's certainly situations against the current combo field where the removal's been better than discard. It's also created less dead late-game topdecks. Although I fully concede that Solidarity is an atrocious matchup with that current list.

I'm considering cutting either one or all Glittering Wishes. I think it is better than Living Wish, simply because it can grab control elements, but it's also very clunky. And while it offers a wide variety of solutions to Wish for, often they're not the most efficient ones. Not being able to grab mana, card drawing, or a really solid anti-combo card beyond Dueling Ground is also a pain.

@Castigate: It might not be that relevant, but one of my instinctive dislikes about Castigate in the deck is that it has zero synergy with Echoes. When I do run discard, I like to hit key cards and dig for an Echoes before they topdeck another, say, Cataclysm or Burning Wish or whatever.

Then play Distress, since the manabase could support Hymns to Tourach before. But I'd say that RFGing Life from the Loam or Dread Return when you don't get an Echoes may be more important.