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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anti~American4621
... Anyways, I think we need a tool to combat Midgame decks, and I would also like to point out that Loaming Shaman is better than Grunt because it's instant speeed.
No it's not instant speeed. Its a CIP triggered ability.
I think Id need to side with Grunt. Though he can be killed before his job is achieved thats a removal spell that didnt hit a Meddling Mage or a Werebear. If the opponent doesnt have removal they're in much more trouble because of the continual effect. Keep in mind +1/+2 is much better against several decks including the red splash mirror. He dominates the combat zone. He costs one less too, which is crucial when holding Counterspells or when fighting mana screw.
Another reason he gets the nod is because Multiple Grunts are effective. The opponent will need more removal for each one or still crumble. Multiple Shamans shouldnt be played in conjunction because their yard effect wont be so large. Playing one then playing the other next turn to remove 1-2 cards isnt that great. Wheras Grunt x2 is game over. You can apply more pressure this way. Adding more damage to the board.
Does it bother anyone that you'd be recycling their cards back into the deck as well? That means you'll see all those FoW's and StP's again. With thresh's card draw and lib manipulation its possible your putting yourself through the pain of those cards a second or even third time.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
What's cool about grunt is that (if needed) he can first take care of my opponent's yard, and then turn his sights on mine. I can cycle every card (or at least most) from my opponent's graveyard into his deck (fetchlands and all) but I can choose only the best cards to put back into mine. In this way I can gain the potential for card quality advantage down the road in addition to screwing a graveyard and beating for 4.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Sorry to double post, but discussion seems to have halted and I'd like to inquire something on this thread. I know the mental note vs. predict vs. portent debate has been extensive, but I wanted to ask all of your opinions: does this deck need actual card advantage?
For a while I've wanted to introduce mental note back into the deck, but I love what portent does for me. So I started considering dropping predict for mental note instead. Since that would eliminate all "draw 2" opportunities from my deck, I was wondering if any of you thought the additional speed was worth it.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Solpugid
Sorry to double post, but discussion seems to have halted and I'd like to inquire something on this thread. I know the mental note vs. predict vs. portent debate has been extensive, but I wanted to ask all of your opinions: does this deck need actual card advantage?
For a while I've wanted to introduce mental note back into the deck, but I love what portent does for me. So I started considering dropping predict for mental note instead. Since that would eliminate all "draw 2" opportunities from my deck, I was wondering if any of you thought the additional speed was worth it.
This deck doesnt need card advantage really. What it really want's is card quality. I mean, we can all agree Portent is so muc better than Predict and Mental Note, right? Mental Note and/or Predict should be added in after Portent. Look at Mr. Nightmare and the Hatfield brother's list.
Mental Note + Portent = Yummy
Predict + Portent = Yummy
Predict + no Portent = shit
Mental Note + no Portent = No momentum
Card Advantage is important, but I think what makes Predict good right now is the fact it burns a card, and draws you two. You are digging 3 cards deeper, and you thinned your deck by 3 cards. Theres a reason why Predict is better than AK.
Mental Note and Predict is more of a personal preference really. The way you play the decks is really based on playskill and what your comfortable with. Everything in the format right now can easily go 50-50 against eachother, so I recommend that you play with what makes you feel more comfortable piloting with the least amount of errors.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Ah,the discussion about the cantrips...
Well,Portent IS good. It shows you up to 5 cards until the Mainphase of the next turn(When you play it,3,upkeep draw 4th and in the Drawphase of the next Turn the 5th card).
Mental Note vs. Predict is a littlebit more difficult.
In the End,both are quite Similar.
Mental Note mills 2 Card and draws one,then goes to the grave.
3 in the grave,1 drawn
Predict mills one Card,draws 2 cards an then goes to the grave.
2 in the grave,2 cards drawn
But the 1 more card Predict draws is a card that will hit the board as a creature,a land or as a solution like Needle,Worship. Or it's a cantrip,which will dig deeper into teh deck,helping to find the solutions.
Virually Predict generates more Cardadvantage than Mental Note. Plus,Mental Note doesn't support the Cardquality. It's only good to dispose the crap you put onto the top of your library with Brainstorm.
Portent und Serum Visions can just shuffle/put the crap away.
In my opinion,3 Predicts will be fine. Mental Note is just something for people that like to play it very aggressive.
edit: I hope you understand what I mean...my english still has to improve xD
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Predict does not unconditionally draw you 2 cards. I don't understand why people keep saying this. Cheating aside, you need: 1) extraordinary luck, 2) set-up. Luck is what it is, so it's hard to comment on. As for set-up, you need your opponent to cast M/E Tutor while you have Predict in hand and the mana available, or set up something junky on the top of your library with the other drawers to dredge it away for the two cards below it. This is made worse when you consider the amount of time and mana you're spending when the right play might just be casting Serum Visions and spending your mana on Werebear instead. Also, Predict is awfully weak as a mid-game topdeck when you have no other drawers in hand (which is likely, since you've already cast those spells). The real deal-breaker, for me, is the 2 mana casting cost. That's the reason I dropped AK from this deck so long ago.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bardo
Predict does not unconditionally draw you 2 cards. I don't understand why people keep saying this. Cheating aside, you need: 1) extraordinary luck, 2) set-up. Luck is what it is, so it's hard to comment on. As for set-up, you need your opponent to cast M/E Tutor while you have Predict in hand and the mana available, or set up something junky on the top of your library with the other drawers to dredge it away for the two cards below it. This is made worse when you consider the amount of time and mana you're spending when the right play might just be casting Serum Visions and spending your mana on Werebear instead. Also, Predict is awfully weak as a mid-game topdeck when you have no other drawers in hand (which is likely, since you've already cast those spells). The real deal-breaker, for me, is the 2 mana casting cost. That's the reason I dropped AK from this deck so long ago.
I don't want to dredge up the old Predict vs. Mental Note debate, but don't you worry because you have a deck with no real card advantage? I mean even the versions with Predict are really thin on card advantage, but without it how do you compete with decks that have more card advantage than you ? Control decks looks like a disaster and Goblins has to be terrible since you are basically limited to 1 card per turn. Having less card selection spells against Solidarity can't be a good thing? I'm not sure how you compete with these decks, but I would be interested in finding out.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AnwarA101
I don't want to dredge up the old Predict vs. Mental Note debate, but don't you worry because you have a deck with no real card advantage? I mean even the versions with Predict are really thin on card advantage, but without it how do you compete with decks that have more card advantage than you ? Control decks looks like a disaster and Goblins has to be terrible since you are basically limited to 1 card per turn. Having less card selection spells against Solidarity can't be a good thing? I'm not sure how you compete with these decks, but I would be interested in finding out.
Arent you an adept? Why in the world are you talking like the deck has a problem? Straight control is bad for the deck but fortunately the only decks remotely like that are Landstill and Truffle Shuffle. There arent any other control decks being heavily played. Goblins has Ringleader and you dont, thats just the way it goes. You cant afford to play a high casting cost card that just draws cards, you need to keep mana open for counters, creatures, or removal. Spending a turn on drawing cards is a bad idea. The deck already has a great matchup against Solidarity, I dont see why your worried about card selection. The only deck card is StP.
Im shocked to see no discussion for Krosan Grip. The card is absurd at destroying Tormod's Crypt. Everyone waits till the best moment to crypt you but when you cast Grip eot they cant even sac crpyt in response to rfg the 3-5 cards or so that are in there. Its better than Naturalize because you'd be waiting till turn 3 to play Naturalize around Daze, or Nat just gets countered. In this format everyone waits till its time to respond by vialing in a creature or activating deed. All those little toys have a liability for letting them sit on the table now. Think about it.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bane_of_the_living
Arent you an adept? Why in the world are you talking like the deck has a problem? Straight control is bad for the deck but fortunately the only decks remotely like that are Landstill and Truffle Shuffle. There arent any other control decks being heavily played. Goblins has Ringleader and you dont, thats just the way it goes. You cant afford to play a high casting cost card that just draws cards, you need to keep mana open for counters, creatures, or removal. Spending a turn on drawing cards is a bad idea. The deck already has a great matchup against Solidarity, I dont see why your worried about card selection. The only deck card is StP.
Maybe I worded my response poorly. My point was when you play this deck without any type of card advantage spell you are more likely to run out of cards.
You have to answer your opponents threats and you are likely to run out of answers if you have no card advantage. Even with Predict, I feel the deck sometimes is low on cards, but without Predict I'm not sure how I would answer threats and still have cards in my hand. I was curious how Bardo did with no card advantage.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bardo
Predict does not unconditionally draw you 2 cards. I don't understand why people keep saying this. Cheating aside, you need: 1) extraordinary luck, 2) set-up. Luck is what it is, so it's hard to comment on. As for set-up, you need your opponent to cast M/E Tutor while you have Predict in hand and the mana available, or set up something junky on the top of your library with the other drawers to dredge it away for the two cards below it. This is made worse when you consider the amount of time and mana you're spending when the right play might just be casting Serum Visions and spending your mana on Werebear instead. Also, Predict is awfully weak as a mid-game topdeck when you have no other drawers in hand (which is likely, since you've already cast those spells). The real deal-breaker, for me, is the 2 mana casting cost. That's the reason I dropped AK from this deck so long ago.
Theres a reason why when Predict is being ran in a deck, the deck has 12 set-up cards. With 12, you aim in every direction of your deck so you can use those Predicts now, or later. And I must disagree with you if you say Predict is a weak midgame topdeck, because you probably saved a cantrip in your hand while you were busy casting business spells around early game, and when you play a Cantrip, your priorities are to find other Cantrips, as well as the standard Answers and Threats. You also shouldnt mind the fact you'll be investing a lot of mana on just casting a 1cc Cantrip, and a Predict, because around midgame, you should have at least 6 lands out. That's more than enough mana to draw, and play men. The Predict variants play differently from the Mental Note versions. We dont cast men early game to midgame unless it's an answer in the Red Zone, we solve them through counters and Removal from the help of our cantrips.
But anyways, I dont want you to think that I think negatively of Mental Note, because I do run Mental Note, but it's just that I also run Predict as well, and I also dont want you to think Predict is bad. I would do my best to persuade you the strangths of the Predict builds, without putting down Mental Note. I know both Cantrips have their flaws, but the advantages fo what they can do is what makes them great. Predict must be set-up, and Mental Note can kill card quality, but in return, Mental Note makes the quality of your Creatures much better earlier in the game than it was suppose to be, and Predict refills your hand of Cantrips, Answers, and Threats.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Has anyone tried out stifle in the pithing needle/explosives/meddling mage/worship slot yet? I really like running worship, but my area has a lot of decks running maindeck artifact and enchantment removal, and I like giving them dead cards. Stifle does so many things to help this deck out, so I was wondering if any of you had success with it. It's especially good against goblins, which I've found to be one of my harder matchups (if they get a good hand).
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Stifle should be solid if you're playing in a meta full of tier one decks. You have numerous target for Vial Gobs ie. Wasteland, Lackey, Matron, Incinerator, and especially Ringleader. Stifle is hot against the better combo decks in legacy as well (Iggy Pop and Solidarity). So i feel it deserves testing, maybe a 3-of in the SB.
On a completely unrelated subject, has anyone tested Peek as a possible cantrip for Thresh? I personally like it best in the mirror and combo matchups. Having additional information about my opponents unknowns gives me a slight edge when faced with tough decisions. For instance if i'm playing against the mirror and playing first, I like to Peek at the end of my opponents turn. I want to know if he's holding Force of will, StP, Daze, EE, or how his hand is going to interact with mine and decide how i want to proceed on my next turn. Peek has good stand alone value in that it doesn't need another card to help set it up and combos well with meddling mage. I run Peek in my version and have never been disappointed when i drew it. Also i play a slightly higher number of cantrips than most builds.
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Vision
3 Mental Note
3 Peek
Mental Not is probably the weakest link and could get replaced with Portent. Further testing will need to be done before i make the switch.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the_show
Stifle should be solid if you're playing in a meta full of tier one decks. You have numerous target for Vial Gobs ie. Wasteland, Lackey, Matron, Incinerator, and especially Ringleader. Stifle is hot against the better combo decks in legacy as well (Iggy Pop and Solidarity). So i feel it deserves testing, maybe a 3-of in the SB.
On a completely unrelated subject, has anyone tested Peek as a possible cantrip for Thresh? I personally like it best in the mirror and combo matchups. Having additional information about my opponents unknowns gives me a slight edge when faced with tough decisions. For instance if i'm playing against the mirror and playing first, I like to Peek at the end of my opponents turn. I want to know if he's holding Force of will, StP, Daze, EE, or how his hand is going to interact with mine and decide how i want to proceed on my next turn. Peek has good stand alone value in that it doesn't need another card to help set it up and combos well with meddling mage. I run Peek in my version and have never been disappointed when i drew it. Also i play a slightly higher number of cantrips than most builds.
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Vision
3 Mental Note
3 Peek
Mental Not is probably the weakest link and could get replaced with Portent. Further testing will need to be done before i make the switch.
Why not cut Peek for Portent? If you want, you can run 4 BS, 4 SV, 3 Portent, and 3 Predict. But then again, Peek provieds tons of info, and synergizes with MM. If you dont like Mental Note, leave it there. You need a clock right after you get information from Peek. It makes Mage shine because ti can slow your opponent down, and speed you up.
Also, has anyone here cut Mages yet? I have, and I have a build to show how proud I am...
// Lands 18
2 Nantuko Monastery
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
// Creatures 11
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
3 Mystic Enforcer
// Spells 31
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Portent
3 Mental Note
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pithing Needle
// Sideboard 15
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Counterspell
3 Stifle
3 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip
3 Jotun Grunt
I've been playing this for 3 weeks, and I'm in love with it. It's still got nothing on Hatfield Thresh, but it does so well against decks like Goblins. I admit, card advantage is good versus Goblins, but going towards the midgame role is even better if it all starts on Turn 2. Monasteries are savage beaters. I won the mirror with this deck so often. MM is weak. I usually ignore it, and just keep going. They may have Needle more Monastery, but games 2 just means they have to leave a dead card in there just to shut down a few men who double as generic lands, as I board in things like Grunt. Do the math; they have terrible topdecks just to keep Monasteries at bay, while I take advantage of this and go all out. They'll probably board out more Card Draw/Utility/Men/Removal just to shut it down.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anti~American4621
Peek provieds tons of info, and synergizes with MM.
How again is it synergic with Mental Note?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anti~American4621
Also, has anyone here cut Mages yet?
Nope, they are extremely valuable against most of the field.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kabal
How again is it synergic with Mental Note?
It's not MN, Mental Note, it's MM, Meddling Mage. And peek is obviously synergic with Meddling Mage :smile:
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
I still haven't decided to drop mage all together (he's in my board) but I don't think he's maindeck worthy, simply from my testing.
Anti~American, I like your maindeck monasteries, they've been great for me too. My build seems similar to yours except that I face more mid-range aggro decks (angel stompy and such) so I've dropped mental note for predict.
One question though. If your metagame has a good deal of goblins, have you had problems with wasteland (since you don't run basics)?
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Solpugid
I still haven't decided to drop mage all together (he's in my board) but I don't think he's maindeck worthy, simply from my testing.
Anti~American, I like your maindeck monasteries, they've been great for me too. My build seems similar to yours except that I face more mid-range aggro decks (angel stompy and such) so I've dropped mental note for predict.
One question though. If your metagame has a good deal of goblins, have you had problems with wasteland (since you don't run basics)?
Monasteries divert them from hitting one of your Duals. I realize this is an awful philosophy, but it works.
Also, I play against tons of Angel Stompy. I usually play Hatfield Thresh w/ Monasteries on the Side. I usually run Predicts because it suits my style more, it's just that, that build is what my team's working on. We sorta fell in love with the Mental Note/European style Thresh. Like heres on the builds we built our skeleton off of...
// Lands 17
3 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Island
// Creatures 8
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
// Spells 35
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict
4 Mental Note
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pithing Needle
// Sideboard 15
3 Mystic Enforcer
4 Tivadar's Crusade
2 Hydroblast
1 Stifle
2 Naturalize
3 Tormod's Crypt
This was the deck that Top 8 the Euro 1.5 Worlds.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Ah,I recorgnize that Build. It was placed Top8 in Aschaffenburg here in Germany.
And imo it's just a very crappy build. The build ran a white Splash ONLY for Swords to Plowshares and there were no Meddling Mages or Mystic Enforcers.
Even IF you want to play a aggressive version,I would still suggest that you play a build similar to Mr. Nightmares. My build looks like this. Sometimes I swap the Predicts with Mental Notes. They are quite solid,even though they don't support CQ.
// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [RAV] Forest (1)
2 [RAV] Island (1)
1 [RAV] Plains (1)
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [A] Tropical Island
4 [B] Tundra
// Creatures
1 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [OD] Werebear
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [IA] Portent
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
2 [MM] Counterspell
4 [FD] Serum Visions
3 [OD] Predict / 3 [JU] Mental Note - depends on your style or mood :P
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
SB: 2 [US] Worship
SB: 3 [A] Armageddon
SB: 3 [ON] Naturalize
SB: 3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
I'm thinking about something like this. maybe you could add Engineered Explosives. But they are not that popular here in Germany.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Adan
Ah,I recorgnize that Build. It was placed Top8 in Aschaffenburg here in Germany.
And imo it's just a very crappy build. The build ran a white Splash ONLY for Swords to Plowshares and there were no Meddling Mages or Mystic Enforcers.
Even IF you want to play a aggressive version,I would still suggest that you play a build similar to Mr. Nightmares. My build looks like this. Sometimes I swap the Predicts with Mental Notes. They are quite solid,even though they don't support CQ.
// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [RAV] Forest (1)
2 [RAV] Island (1)
1 [RAV] Plains (1)
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [A] Tropical Island
4 [b] Tundra
// Creatures
1 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [OD] Werebear
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [b] Swords to Plowshares
4 [IA] Portent
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
2 [MM] Counterspell
4 [FD] Serum Visions
3 [OD] Predict / 3 [JU] Mental Note - depends on your style or mood :P
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
SB: 2 [US] Worship
SB: 3 [A] Armageddon
SB: 3 [ON] Naturalize
SB: 3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 3 [b] Blue Elemental Blast
I'm thinking about something like this. maybe you could add Engineered Explosives. But they are not that popular here in Germany.
I do run that build. I started playing that before Mr. Nightmare got 2nd at TML. My personal preferences make the deck look a little different, because I cut some random 1-ofs, and I had 17 Lands since I had 11 1cc Cantrips.
// Lands 17
3 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
2 Island
// Creatures 12
4 Meddling Mage
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
// Spells 31
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Portent
3 Mental Note
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pithing Needle
2 Stifle
// Sideboard 15
1 Stifle
1 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
3 Hydroblast
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Mystic Enforcer
2 Engineered Explosive
That was my build...
Which reminds me. If you run 11 1cc Cantrips with Card Quality ensured, I know that you should go down to 17 Lands. I mean, chances are, you dont want that many lands in your opening hand. Now heres a new philosophy...
Cut a land, add a cantrip. That's my new arguement if people are going to run Mr. Nightmare's build. Bardo's and Summersberger can remain the same 18, because they dont have Portents, whereas, Mr. Nightmare's does, meaning it needs those cantrips, and more tools for it's control skeleton.
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Re: [DTB] U/G/w Thresh (a.k.a. Gro, NQG)
Ok, so I've been playing around with cantrips a lot lately. I try to drop mental note and I miss the speed. I try to drop portent and I miss the selection (and "lock" you can put on your opponent). I try to drop predict and I miss the card advantage. If I ever try to drop brainstorm, I will quit Magic.
My point is I've never been happy. Two lists back, posted by Anti~American, I saw the combo of mental note and portent. I figured that maybe I could cut some other cards and run predict as well. How about this configuration:
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum visions
3 Portent
3 Mental note
2 Predict
It seems like it's the best of both/all worlds, but will it be too unreliable now? It does remain at a fairly normal 16 'trips though.
I also would like to start a new discussion: 4, 3, or 2 daze? I've always liked 3, but at that number I can't guarantee seeing them early (when they matter most). What do you think?
