Or how bout you drop a useless redundency to worship (essensce sliver) and add in 1 swords and a usefull counter (stifle).
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Or how bout you drop a useless redundency to worship (essensce sliver) and add in 1 swords and a usefull counter (stifle).
essense slivers aren't so great. Most of the time I wish I had flying or first strike instead so I dropped them to go 3 winged and 3 talon. I'm thinking i might end up going 4 winged and 2 talon. flying is just that good. dunno about the flanking sliver. I want harmonics main to be able to deal with artifacts and enchantments. Jitte's sort of suck and so do opposing worships.
Essence Sliver is mediocre. I find that it rarely turns a losing situation into a winning one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirika
Harmonic Sliver is useful in most metagames. I like to run 2 maindeck.
I think the deck needs 3 Winged Slivers, because flying over the hordes is how you win a lot of aggro matches.
Talon Sliver is nice. First Strike definitely comes in handy in some situations. My problem with running Talon Sliver is that between Winged, Harmonic, and Talon, you're now running ~8 slivers that are overcosted 1/1 creatures, which leads to more bad draws. I think the deck works best when it only has 5-6 Winged/Talon/Harmonic Slivers. The trick is figuring out which combination of slivers to run without oversaturating the deck with overcosted creatures that aren't very good on their own. Personally, I decided to forego the Talons because Worship fits very nicely into that slot. Sure, Worship gets sided out in some matchups, but those are the same matchups where First Strike doesn't matter, either.
I've got a question concerning this deck. I'm far too lazy to look back on the 24758325423 pages of this thread, so I figured I would raise the subject of matchups. Does anyone actually have any legitimate testing done with this deck against the tier 1 and 2 decks??? (Workstation doesn't count)
Word.
Yes. The Tier 1 matchups are discussed in the opening post. [EDIT: I take that back. It looks like Pinder removed that section of the primer.]Quote:
Originally Posted by NANTUKO_SHADY
Goblins: 65/35 (my testing has been almost exclusively against mono-red)
Thresh: 50/50 (slightly better actually, but a lot of matches end 1-1 draw due to time)
Solidarity & Iggy Pop : 65/35 (50/50 first game, 70/30 or better after sideboarding)
I believe CounterSliver also has somewhat positive matchups against Angel Stompy and Faerie Stompy, but my play-testing data here is somewhat scarce.
Deadguy Ale and Affinity seem to be about 50/50 matchups, but again, I don't have a lot of play-testing data.
I have done no play-testing against Salvager Game.
Bad matchups include: The Rock, Truffle Shuffle, Wombat, Rifter. Basically any deck that runs Wrath of God or Pernicious Deed is potentially a problem.
Has anyone considered using Living Wish in the deck (sorry if this has already been discussed)
But the way i see it slivers are the ultimate utility creature, there is seemingly one for every situation. I was thinking with the use of Aether Vial in this deck, one could Living Wish for whatever was needed, and the creature could be vialed into play, irrespective of casting cost (colors). This would also allow the have some kind of Fat stored in the sideboard which could be called upon if the time arose, yet also allows for other creatures in the board such as True Believer and the alike for combo match ups.
Anyway just thought i would add my thoughts.
Well, we did try Living Wish once, and found out that it was really slow. We also tried Aether Vial, and found out that it wasn't that great with so few creatures. The whole 'wish for a creature and vial it in' thing was really neato and all, but just too slow and clunky for a deck based purely around tempo. So in short, yeah, that's a good idea,but for a different build of Slivers.
fair enough, i have to admit, it would make for quite i different list.
Any ideas on options for the mirror match? All i could think of was maybe Glorious Anthem to make your creatures bigger then theirs but it is double white.
Hmm. That's not something I've had to worry about. Off the top of my head, here are a few ideas:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirika
Spell Snare - counters 2cc spells. Also good against B/W Confidant.
Ward Sliver - cast it, name white (or whatever), then swing for the win.
Turnabout - tap all his critters, then swing for the win.
EDIT: Here's an added bonus (if you want to call it that) for anyone still reading this thread. I dug up an old counter-sliver tournament report I wrote for The Dojo back in 1999. This blast from the past is courtesy of the Wayback Machine.
Quote:
Subject: [TOURNAMENT] Counter Sliver
When: Saturday, 4/10/99
Where: The Bat Cave, Vancouver WA
Format: T2, swiss
We had 25 people show up this Saturday, including several pro-tour hopefuls
back from the Seattle/Eugene PTQ's. It has been very interesting to see the
new variety of decks since the April 1 bannings. I think it's a much more
enjoyable, competitive environment now.
Here's the deck I played with:
4 City of Brass
2 Thran Quarry
2 Reflecting Pool
4 Brushland
8 Island
3 Mox Diamond
2 Winter Orb
4 Winged Sliver
4 Counterspell
2 Forbid
2 Mana Leak
4 Crystalline Sliver
2 Disenchant
2 Worship
4 Muscle Sliver
2 Bird of Paradise
4 Wall of Blossoms
1 Sylvan Library
2 Earthquake
2 Incinerate
Sideboard:
2 Duress
2 Terror
2 Mana Leak
4 Pyroblast
2 Shock
2 Disenchant
1 Sliver Queen
Round 1: Justin, playing mono blue with Stalking Stones, Faerie Conclaves,
Energy Field, and disks
First Game: Justin is a good player, but I beat his counter-phoenix deck
last week to make the top 4. He sees me and makes some comment about
wishing he could have played a scrub in the first round. I say hey, I am a
scrub! Anyway, I get out a couple of early slivers, zap one of his
walking
lands after he activates it, counter a disk, and disenchant an Energy Field.
Sliver beatdown brings it home.
Second Game: In go 4 Pyroblast, 2 Duress. Out go 4 Walls, 2 Earthquake. I
don't remember much about this game, except that he countered some of my
crucial stuff and killed me with faeries and stomping stones.
Third Game: This time, I see some of my sideboard cards. I get out a
couple of early slivers and a Winter Orb, and start applying beatings. At
one point, he manages to get out an Energy Field. I say ok, he says go.
Next turn, I duress him. Bye bye energy field!
Matches 1-0, Games 2-1
Round 2: My buddy, Rob, playing mono-green stompy
I helped Rob put his deck together last weekend, so I know what's in it. I
also know that if I get bad draws, he could easily beat me. Luckily for me,
he got the bad draws.
First Game: He mulligans down to 5 and keeps a 1-land hand. He never gets
off the ground in this game.
Second Game: In go 2 Terror, 1 Sliver Queen. Out go 1 Winged Sliver, 2
Winter Orb (useless against elves & Gaea's Cradle). In my opening hand,
I
draw Winged Sliver, Forbid, Sliver Queen, Mox Diamond, and 3 land. I keep
it. My first 3 turns, I do nothing except put down 3 lands, a mox, a bird,
and a crystalline sliver. Meanwhile, Rob builds a small army. Fourth turn,
I tap out to play a Sliver Queen. He, of course, can do nothing about it.
Game over, although it took me a while to work around his Killer Bees and
Titania's Chosen, which got up to 8/8 before I finally chump blocked it with
a bunch of baby slivers.
Matches 2-0, Games 4-1
Round 3: Gary, playing Counter-Sliver!
This is the only other guy in the Portland-Vancouver area who regularly
plays counter-sliver, that I know of. He only comes to this tournament
occasionally, though, so I've never had to play against him, until now. I'm
a bit worried about the mirror matchup, because I think his deck has more
slivers in it.
First Game: Before the game, Gary makes some comment about never getting
mana-screwed with his deck. Can you guess what happened after that? For
some weird reason, Gary keeps a 1-land hand. I guess the other 6 cards in
his hand must have looked pretty damn good to him. Anyway, he never drew
another land the entire game, and never even attempts to cast a spell.
Needless to say, my slivers apply the beats.
Second Game: In go 4 Pyroblasts, 2 Duress, 1 Disenchant, 1 Sliver Queen.
Out go 4 Walls, 2 Earthquake, 2 Winter Orb. This game is a little more
interesting. I get out a couple of early slivers, and he gets out one.
He's slightly mana-hosed however, and on his 5th turn he taps 2 of his 3
mana to bring out another sliver. I say ok, he says go. On my turn, I
bring out the Mama Bitch. This is the beginning of the end for him. On my
next turn, I topdeck a Duress, cast it, and pull a Whirlwind (!) out
of his
hand. In so doing, I had to leave a Worship in his hand, which he
successfully casts on his next turn. A few turns later, I draw a
Disenchant, kill the Worship, and swarm him with diaper dandies.
Matches 3-0, Games 6-1
Round 4: some guy, playing a cool blue deck (sorry, don't remember your
name, dude)
I knew I was in the final 8 no matter what at this point, so I kinda wanted
to draw, so I could relax and maybe watch Rob play. Unfortunately, my
opponent was 2-1, and felt that he needed to play. So, we play.
First Game: First couple of turns, he just lays islands, while I get out a
sliver. I'm thinking he's playing another one of those blue permission
decks with walking lands, and/or morphling, or maybe counter-phoenix. So,
on my 3rd turn, despite having counters in my hand, I tap 2 of my 3 mana to
bring out a wall of draw. He holds for a while, and finally says ok. I
draw my card and say go. He draws, plays a 3rd island, taps them, and casts
Show and Tell. Oh Shit. The only eligible card in my hand is a Winter Orb,
which I select. He drops a... Verdant Force! A couple of turns later,
I
scoop.
Second Game: In go 4 Pyroblasts, 2 Terror. Out go 4 Walls, 2 Earthquakes.
I got out a couple of early slivers, but always kept enough mana open to
counter his stuff. I believe I also got out a winter orb in this game,
which really slowed him down.
Third Game: Pretty much the same as game #2, except now I find out he
also
has Quicksilver Amulets. No matter. By the time he finally gets one out,
it's too late. Slivers bring it home again.
Matches 4-0, Games 8-2
Finals, Round 1: John, playing mono-red (a slightly odd sligh variant)
First Game: I quickly get out the dreaded sliver trio and swarm over him.
No contest.
Second Game: Ouch, this hurt. I reluctantly keep an opening draw with some
lands and slivers, but no counters. He quickly gets out a havoc, wastes 1
of my lands, and then boils away my islands the turn before I was going to
drop a worship. I die a fiery death.
Third Game: Once again, I keep an opening hand with some slivers and no
counters. It was touch and go, but I get out a couple of muscle slivers and
manage to outrace him.
Finals, Round 2: Calvin, playing Spikes/Tradewinds
Calvin is one of the best players in Washington, and his deck is a tough
matchup for me. The other 2 guys in the final 4 wanted to draw out and
split the prize money. I said I would play or draw, whatever you guys wanna
do. Calvin apparently thought he could take me, and insisted on playing.
So we played.
First Game: I get out a couple of early slivers, including the Crystalline,
and a Sylvan Library. I think the Sylvan Library was the difference in this
game. He gets out a Tradewind at some point, but I counter and/or quake
away the next few creatures he plays. By the time he finally gets out 2
more creatures to go with the Tradewind, it's too late. I swarm over him
with the army of slivers I've accumulated.
Second Game: In go 4 Pyroblast, 2 Terror, 2 Mana Leak. Out go 4 Walls, 2
Worship, 2 Winter Orb. I made my first bonehead move of the tournament in
this game, and consequently blew a game I probably should have won. I got
out an early Muscle and Crystalline and started applying beats. Finally at
some point he gets out some sort of blocker - a wall, I think. Fine, so
it'll take me a little longer. I attack, he blocks the Crystalline, takes 2
from the Muscle, putting him at 7. At this point, I have 4 mana in play,
with 2 Mana Leaks and a Forbid in my hand. Calvin has 7 mana available. I
say go. Calvin draws, taps 5, and casts Extinction. Yikes! I Leak
it. He
has no response, and says go. I draw a Winged Sliver. For some stupid
reason, I decide to play it, tapping 2 of my 4 mana, leaving a Mana Leak and
a Forbid in my hand. I fly over his blocker for 5, bringing him down to 2,
and say go. He draws, lays a land, taps 5, and casts... another
Extinction!
The best I can do is Leak it, making him tap a City, bringing him down to 1.
My slivers go to the graveyard. Calvin comes all the way back to win that
game.
Third Game: Odd game. I get out a first turn Muscle, which ends up going
all the way, by itself! I draw a bunch of counter spells, and stop 2 or
3
attempts at capsizing my sliver. He does get out an annoying Oath of
Ghouls, which makes the game really touch and go. He keeps using it to
bring a Raven Familiar back from his graveyard, which I managed to keep
countering and/or killing. Meanwhile, the marathon muscle sliver
relentlessly pounded him into submission. He was pretty ticked after the
game. Should have taken the draw, dude!
Finals, Round 3: Dave, playing a nasty blue/white deck with Wraths, disks,
walking lands, etc.
Dave isn't feeling so hot, kinda wants to draw, but is willing to play. I
said what the hell, let's just draw and split the prize money. We won
~30
bucks store credit, each.
Just some final comments on CounterSliver. This deck was pretty good
before, and I think it's a very good now with the April 1 bannings. The
only decks it seems to have real trouble with are those with lots of mass
creature removal.
That's all folks. Thanks for reading. I had no idea how long it take to
write one of these things!
I would like to discuss the idea of moving Meddling Mage to the maindeck.
The nice thing about maindecking the Meddling Mages is that it strengthens the game 1 against combo. Also, it opens up slots in the sideboard for something like Disrupt, which can be sided in against Deadguy Ale and Burn, as well as being an additional weapon to bring in against combo. The Mages aren't tremendous against Goblins and other Aggro, but they aren't bad either.
Volt, have you considered absolute law in the sideboard (1W enchantment: all creatures get pro red). It makes your slivers even more awesome in the goblins matchup, and mages become stupid good in both the goblins and burn matchup.
I've seen you mention Absolute Law before, and it seems like a reasonable suggestion. I haven't tried it, though. I take it that it's working out pretty well for you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick676
Btw, I'm 98% sure that I'm going to the Columbus Grand Prix. Guess which deck I'm going to be playing.
Yes absolute law has always worked wonders in my decks. I play it in threshold, meathooks, and just about anything running creatures and white mana. If you're going to columbus with meathooks I would seriously recomend this for you sideboard. It really does a number on goblins.
BTW I think it's awesome that someone is finally taking this deck to a big tournament. Best of luck to ya.
Volt, did I mention that you're my hero? It's about time one of us took the list somewhere big. I hope it goes well for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Volt
As to adding Mages to the maindeck, it seems to me like it would be a great idea, but I have one reservation: because all of the Slivers are untargetable, then Magi seem like they would draw a ton on removal. Has this been an issue? I suppose that in the combo matchups, where the Magi really shine, there's not a ton of removal to worry about that you can't, well, Mage, and that in the matchups where Mages would die quickly (Goblins comes to mind), Mages don't matter. Is that how it works?
And yeah, Absolute Law is house against Goblins. If you've freed up space in the board, having them is great.
No Dazes? Sweet. I was about ready to get rid of them too.You think 4 Force is enough counters? I still feel uneasy about a lack of Talon Sliver, but then maybe I've just grown attached. 3 Stifle looks like it would be fine to me, you don't really want to see them after early to mid-game (except against Goblins, where you want to see them every waking second), so cutting 1 shouldn't be a problem. Harmonics, well, meh. There's some negative syngery with those Worships, but I don't really think that'll come up very much. And speaking of Worships, how much do you rely on them, generally? I suppose Goblins doesn't pack any enchantment hate (well, Anarchy, but that fucks over a lot more than Worship), but how many times have you relied on Worship to keep you alive, only to have it Naturalized or something during an Alpha Strike? And let's not forget about Krosan Grip.Quote:
Originally Posted by Volt
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinder
I wouldn't say I rely on the Worships, but they do improve the Goblins matchup by about 10%. They also pull out random games against other aggro decks. That said, I'm considering moving them to the sideboard. I'm trying to develop a more versatile build that performs well against a more varied field.
Other thoughts...
I still feel like 8 cantrips isn't quite enough. I know we tried 12 a while back, and that was a bust, but I'm just not satisfied with the 4 Serum Visions + 4 Brainstorm engine. I've actually been running 4 Brainstorm + 3 Serum Visions + 2 Portent for a while, and that does seem to be an improvement. 10 cantrips might be even better, and that's where I'd draw the line.
I've become quite attached to the Harmonic Slivers, although I wouldn't want to run more than 2 maindeck. They can really pull your ass out of the fire, and nobody ever sees them coming.
I agree that the cantrip count could stand to go up (again). 10 should strike a nice balance between 'not enough' and 'too much'.
I wholeheartedly agree on that one. I think that having Mages as a sort of 'counterspell that sticks to the table' is probably the best way to go. That way, we can just plop one down, and then keep going without worrying about holding mana. Originally we had Daze because of that, but Mages would probably do a lot better in that respect as well. Plus, they swing for 2! My only concern is still that being the only targetable thing on our side of the table will give them a very short lifespan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Volt
I'm still not sold on Harmonics (especially over Talons), but we can agree to disagree on that one (I will admit that where they're good, they're good, though). And if you're not running Talons main, you should at least be boarding them against Gobs. As you can probably attest, they're just that good against the little green men.
One more thing I've been debating, is whether or not we need more removal. It just seems to me like a lot of the time I don't have/can't find a Swords when I really need one to take out an opposing Mage or some other problem creature. I suppose an increased cantrip base could help with that, though. Any other ideas?
The lack of another good removal spell is the sole reason I ended up switching from UGW thresh to UGR.
Honestly, I'd love to help you guys out, but there really isn't much to go in that slot. However, here have been the best candidates for me:
Repeal, echoing truth, last breath, and condemn.
If any of those work for you guys, or if you come up with any better ideas, I'd love to hear about it. And by the way, I found repeal to be the best option so far.
Condemn isn't bad. I've sided it in before. Nobody sees it coming. Of course, it only works on attacking creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinder
Last Breath is worth considering, too. It only takes out small critters, but it doesn't matter if they're attacking or not. That Terrageddon deck that has been doing so well in Europe runs Last Breath in the sideboard to deal with Meddling Mages and goblins.
Speaking of Meddling Mages, I haven't quite decided if I like them in the maindeck or not. My preliminary play-testing leads me to believe that 17 slivers + 4 Meddling Mages tends to lead to glutted hands. If we're going to run so many critters, we might have to take another look at Aether Vial. Frankly, I don't want to go there. Btw, you're right, Meddling Mage is not long for these mortal coils once it hits the board against any sort of aggro deck. I'm going to test them out for a while longer, but my enthusiasm for them is presently waning.
On the other hand, I'm loving the additional cantrips. I think running 9 or 10 cantrips is definitely an improvement. I've been going with Portent as my 3rd cantrip, and I'm finding that I like them almost as much as the Serum Visions.
I really dislike Meddling Mages in this; far too often they give an opponent the opportunity to use otherwise dead cards.
Please please please don't take out Talon Slivers either. If you think they aren't essential, only run 1.
Generally, this is a deck that has no business looking pretty. Judging from my testing, anything approaching an optimal list will include everything from 1-ofs to 4-ofs.