Printable View
I'm glad to hear you still played TES. Anyway at least the GP had a good turnout so odds are we will have another legacy GP. Hopefully flash will be banned and the format will be restored. Anyway, what did your list look like? Did you run md duress? I played in a local legacy tourny yesterday with 4 md duress instead of chants and i went 4-0 beating 2 flash decks. Oh, I also ran 1 cabal therapy in the board. It was really nice to wish for it after a turn one duress.
Hey I have a question for all of you:
How would you play this hand on the play against an unkown deck? city,tomb of urami,infernal tutor,lotus petal,dark ritual,LED,empty the warrens, with another empty the warrens in the deck.
I would go for 18 goblins BTW. What it comes down to is: how afraid are you of FoW, duress, etc.
I'd get Diminishing Returns from the first IT (leaving City of Brass untapped in play before I cast IT) and attempt to win turn 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by matelml
Turn 1: City, LED, Ritual, Petal, Empty the Warrens.
Turn 2: Swing, Urami, EOT make a giant Demon.
Turn 3: Win.
I think diminishing returns is too much of a risk when you have such a solid hand that can do without it, and the urami plan, after reconsidering it seems the best because more people run FoW than MD pyroclasm/engeneered explosives.
The goblin/urami plan is also just as fast as 18 goblins. risking a game loss to a fow just to get 18 goblins seems like a weak play. I'd rather risk it going for d-returns, but its unlikely you would win off a d-returns in that scenario so going for 8 goblins thena tomb seems like the best option.Quote:
Originally Posted by matelml
Now that Flash is gone might as well post my updates.
Lands
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tomb of Urami
Creatures
4 Xantid Swarm
Spells
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Dark Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Plunge into Darkness
1 Diminishing Returns
4 Rite of Flame
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Brainstorm
3 Duress
2 Orim's Chant
Sideboard
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Hull Breach
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 3 Dark Confidant
SB: 1 Earthquake
SB: 1 Duress
There's a few small changes which make a big difference on the deck. Lately I've been playing the deck more conservatively, as you’ll notice with three main deck Duress. Duress was added in because of the up rise in stifles in the metagame, a few of these slots we’re Orim’s Chants but were cut because of Chrome Mox. While Duress is weaker vs. control than Orim’s Chant its better vs. hate decks.
The next big change is three main Empty the Warrens, I know, I know I’ve always been an advocate against it. However, it was changed because of synergy with Cabal Therapy (another change) in the sideboard. Allowing the deck to play more conservatively and a lot more control like. Between postboard 4 Xantid 4 Therapy 3 Duress and 2 Orim’s Chant you should man handle Control/Hate decks allowing an over better percentage against the whole field.
Also, I’m going to end with a few questions.
Where do people see TES going in the near future now that Flash is gone? Will it raise to the top or fall? Any new cards?
Shouldn't the meta return to normal now that Flash is gone? Wouldn't that mean TES can rise to the top again?
The new list looks like it will do fine against Fish. Fish might stay pretty popular now, not your preferred matchup. Hopefully for TES players people will go back to Goblins. TES has so much versatility that you can build it to handle just about any meta. If we go basically back to the same meta then TES will do very well again.
I always have problem siding and... What comes out for Therapies? The other problem is that I never find the match to make Confidant come in...
Also... Wouldn't it be better to go with 2 Tendrils + 2 EtW? As the therapies are in side and with a pair of EtW it can be enough.
I generally board out Xantids for Confidants in matches where Xantid is pretty useless... like against most decks that don't run blue. I'd imagine that the plan is similar for Therapies; they would probably replace Chants against decks without blue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullclamping
Confidants also come in against Thresh, over Plunge into Darkness. Or at least, that's what I do. I don't know exactly how wastedlife sideboards with the new list.
I'm curious about this too. Perhaps it's because you'd rather draw into EtW and tutor for Tendrils if it's needed? Or maybe because running 9 cards that don't tutor or produce mana (Xantid, Duress, Chant) makes it harder to reach 10 storm, so EtW is a more practical kill?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullclamping
The new list seems to represent a major shift in the deck's philosophy, moving away from the early kills in favor of having more protection. How useful is Empty the Warrens if it's not being cast turn 1? With this slower build, what distinguishes it from the recent IGGy Pop lists that splash red for EtW?
ETW doesn't need an overly large storm count to win. If you're winning with Tendrils, chances are you're using IGG + Infernal. ETW is very good against TES' bad matchups because IGG can be countered early on in the combo.
My sideboarding plans are pretty much what you said. The deck still has alot of early kills, the only real difference between earlier lists and the current one is +1 ETW, -1 Tendrils and -4 Cabal Ritual + 4 Protection. To be honest Cabal Ritual never really helped out all that much, it was +1 mana and +1 storm. You rarely found threshold. Having better protection vs. Fish and control is huge, which has been increasing in my local metagame. I don't believe the list is slower at all really Cabal Ritual hardly ever made a turn 2 hand a turn 1 hand or a hand that needed to win faster do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by b4r0n
I love the list. But I must say it's sad to see only 2 Chants in the whole deck. Then again, you already have Duress.
Now that I think about it, Duress is awesome in that deck. It
Takes out removal against Control so Xantid Swarm can be a bomb, snatches counters, snatches other bombs, snatches ways to find bombs/control, and protects Confidants Post-Board.
Only changes I'd make is cutting a Therapy from the board for a 4th Confidant.
i like the list.
i think we need to find room for the 4th confidant in the board, and i would LIKE to run 1 more spree, if we could...
Call me stupid, but I don't see how the Dark Confidants fit into the strategy of the deck. Doesn't Night's Whisper work much better with this deck's gameplan? You get the cards more quickly and how much does the 2/1 body matter?
People say they board out the Xantids for Confidants in matches where the Xantids don't matter, such as aggro. Isn't that the best matchup for the deck anyways?
Someone please point out the obvious thing I'm missing or make a case as to why they aren't sub-obtimal sideboard filler.
Against decks with no creatures, every attack step is a Tendrils of Agony copy.Quote:
Originally Posted by revenge_inc
Night's Whisper gives you s 2 for 1 advantage. Confidant gives you a constant advantage.
Against decks with counter magic, winning small helps you slowly leverage this MU in your favor. While your at it, you draw into Duress, Chants, and Swarms to keep your opponent from winning and protecting your combo, while you also draw into Ritual effects, bombs, and ways to find bombs.
I dont see how pitching Green to Chrome Mox makes your goldfish faster.Quote:
People say they board out the Xantids for Confidants in matches where the Xantids don't matter, such as aggro. Isn't that the best matchup for the deck anyways?
How much does this really matter? If it doesn't, why not play Sylvan Library? Does it not let you draw more cards a turn than Dark Confidant?Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
A few other questions:
How good is Serum Powder? Street Wraith?
[quote=revenge_inc;136378]How much does this really matter? If it doesn't, why not play Sylvan Library? Does it not let you draw more cards a turn than Dark Confidant?[/quite]
When you're still in a position to WIN SMALL, I think you'd rather pat 1-2 average per card than 3 life per card + Draw step. When you're using Sylvan Library, I doubt Sylvan Library can offer the card advantage Dark Confidant can provide.
Let's look at the 60 cards in the deck now
22 0cc cards.
21 1cc cards.
11 2cc cards.
6 4cc cards.
Now with Library, it's
3-6, 3-6, 3-6, 3-6, 3-6. Now with Dark Confidant, it's an average to 0-2 per turn. You see more cards as the game goes on.
Quote:
How good is Serum Powder? Street Wraith?
Serum Powder probably wont work for this deck since you're going to draw dead with your Draw 7 even more, unless you'd rather remove a disruption piece of Serum Powder.
Street Warith sucks. I know it's been doing somewhat well in Vintage, but this deck is more mulligan than Long variants in Vintage. This deck doesnt have that many Game turning bombs like in Vintage, only ways to find those Game turning bombs. Because we run more Tutors, that means we need more mana to actually find those Bombs with Tutors. If we're to run Wraith, it might screw up the mulling decisions when you need mana or a tutor.
I think Simian Spirit Guide is a lot better than Right of Flame with 3 ETW, because it turns Dark Ritual into a must counter threat on the first turn, and Dark Ritual and Simian Spirit Guide don't fight over the same lands/acceleration to cast both of them like Dark Ritual and Right of Flame do. Right of Flame into Right of Flame is win more, because Dark Ritual and Simian Spirit Guide result in the same amount of mana, and the opponent can't Force of Will the second Right of Flame and retain card parody as opposed to Force of Willing the Dark Ritual and losing card advantage.
I'm glad Cabal Ritual is gone, because Cabal Ritual was never good enough to be in the deck to begin with, and 8 disruption cards means that the deck is more consistent. Even with out Cabal Ritual and Right of Flame, ETW still averages 3 to 4 storm, and all Cabal Ritual ever did was let control Force of Will it after Dark Ritual like Right of Flame into Right of Flame.
Are you still winning more game with Ill Gotten Gains than Diminishing Returns with Duress and 3 ETW? It seems as if you're almost exactly where I was three months ago, with the exception of Right of Flame over Simian Spirit Guide and another disruption card over Cabal Ritual (which I ended up cutting for Street Wraith). Speaking of another disruption card, I think that MDing Cabal Therapy over Xantid Swarm and Orim's Chant should be a serious consideration, because it could cause people to SB out their spot removal and let you SB in Xantid Swarm and Dark Confidant with out interruption. You also get to Cabal Therapy for Meddling Mage, where Duress discarding Force of Will and Cabal Therapy discarding Meddling Mage is brutal on the play.
This is where I'm at with 5c Tendrils post FS,
MD
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
3 DIMINISHING RETURNS
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 MYSTICAL TUTOR
4 Brainstorm
4 STREET WRAITH
3 Duress
1 ORIM'S CHANT
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 FORBIDDEN ORCHARD
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 SIMIAN SPIRIT GUIDE
SB
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 INFERNAL CONTRACT
1 Hullbreach
1 Rough/Tumble
And then either
4 Dark Confidant
4 Xantid Swarm
or
4 Force of Will
1 Echoing Truth
1 Duress
+2 Empty the Warrens
or
4 Force of Will
3 Orim's Chant
1 Echoing Truth
All of the major changes are in bold, first, 3 Diminishing Returns are insane, as long as Simian Spirit Guide is producing 0 for R and not conflicting with Dark Ritual, casting Diminishing Returns is easy and just as good as Burning Wish with Lion's Eye Diamond. You're basically chaining into Diminishing Returns by floating blue mana off of Lion's Eye Diamond or casting a 5+ storm Empty the Warrens by floating red mana, and Mystical Tutor and Street Wraith turn into a full fledged tutor for your kill condition.
Now that you are playing a 56 card deck and 2 more Diminishing Returns, your top decks are significantly more consistent, and you can Infernal Tutor for multiple Diminishing Returns and break thru' an opponent's counter wall. Street Wraith and Mystical are an insane combo, because it either enables tutoring for Tendrils or Warrens after a Diminishing Returns or it turns Mystical Tutor into a pseudo Burning Wish with Mystical Tutor for Diminishing Returns/Empty the Warrens, cycle and sacrifice Lion's Eye Diamond in response. You'll also get hands where you have Brainstorm, Street Wraith and Lion's Eye Diamond where you can put your Diminishing Returns two cards down and then cycle/LED into it to cast it.
Street Wraith and Mystical Tutor are perfectly fine on their own, just think of Street Wraith as a Cabal Ritual, and you'll see that you would have never kept any hand just because it had Cabal Ritual in it. Mystical Tutor I really like, because Mystical Tutor will always find you the business card you want, and considering Dark Ritual is B for BBB, it's really like tutoring for 2 accelerants in one compared to other accelerants, and considering Orim's Chant baits a Force of Will, you aren't really losing card advantage.
Mystical Tutor is also the stone cold nuts against discard, it's so much easier to win against suicide when you have Mystical Tutor instead of Plunge into Darkness. I also think it's easier to win against aggro-control, because you aren't damaging yourself, and you can Burning Wish for Tendrils of Agony and then Mystical Tutor for the other Tendrils of Agony, which makes the two Tendrils plan more consistent, or Mystical Tutor can tutor for Orim's Chant and you can protect it with Duress to instantly win the game.
I also like the fact that you can Brainstorm off of a land and then Mystical Tutor on your upkeep off of the same land to shuffle the two bad cards back into the deck and then draw exactly what you want.
Forbidden Orchard over Undiscovered Paradise may not seem like a big deal, but Undiscovered Paradise is fucking awful in a deck based around Diminishing Returns. Yes, losing Goblin tokens and moating Dark Confidants sucks, but the whole returning a land to your hand thing is just unconditionally horrible.
The SB is rather self explanatory,
I use the same 7 wish targets, but sometimes I cut the Duress for the Infernal Contract, because I think Burning Wish for Duress is a fundamentally awful play unless you're mana light. By the time you can Burning Wish, your opponent is going to at least consider countering it just to keep you off of Empty the Warrens, and if he doesn't, you should be able to bait the counter with Infernal Contract on your next turn. You usually can't Burning Wish and Duress on the same turn with out losing an accelerant to do it, so you're probably passing the turn any way, and if your passing the turn any way, your better off casting the Infernal Contract if you have the mana and either baiting the Force of Will, gaining card advantage, or resolving the Infernal Contract if he doesn't have a counter. I also think that having a BBB target in the SB is just really useful in and of itself, because it has saved my ass countless time when I couldn't pay UU for Diminishing Returns or 4c for Diminishing Returns or Empty the Warrens.
The first SB is 4 Dark Confidant and 4 Xantid Swarm for the man plan if the aggro-control or control opponent SBs out his removal, because then you can SB in your creatures for Street Wraith and Mystical Tutor and punish him for it. The second SB 4 Force of Will, 1 Echoing Truth, 1 Duress and +2 Empty the Warrens for a general metagame, where Force of Will prevents the opponent from resolving permanent based hate against you when you are on the draw, Echoing Truth gives you 4 more outs to resolved hate and the Duress lets you Burning Wish for Duress and then Infernal Tutor for a second Duress to break thru' a counter wall. I usually SB in the 2 extra Empty the Warrens for the Tendrils of Agony and Ill Gotten Gains against aggro-control and control, because Diminishing Returns into Empty the Warrens is more consistent, drawing Tendrils of Agony or Ill Gotten Gains is terrible, you'll probably remove either the Tendrils of Agony or the Ill Gotten Gains after a Diminishing Returns or two any way, your not as likely to remove all of your kill conditions with 3 kill conditions instead of two and have to rely on Burning Wish and you can still kill the opponent with Tendrils of Agony thru' a Diminishing Returns and Burning Wish. You can also cut 2xDiminishing Returns for them, but then your fundamentally reverting the deck back into TES with a different tutor/disruption package. There's nothing wrong with that I guess, but I think it's cutting down on your threat density tremendously. The third SB is the "protect the Chant" plan from TimDeluxeIt's version of IGGY POP, and altho' I really don't like Orim's Chant's W casting cost in conjunction with Diminishing Returns, it's pretty cool to be able to steal the control roll from aggro-control and dominate them on the stack.
This deck is so fundamentally different from TES that I don't think you can really call it TES any more, but considering TES was the progenitor of this deck, I don't really care either way. Instead of casting Xantid Swarm, Plunge into Darkness for Lion's Eye Diamond and winning with Infernal Tutor/IGG, you clear the path with Duress, and then you Diminishing Returns or Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns/Infernal Contract or Empty the Warrens or Mystical Tutor for Diminishing Returns or Empty the Warrens and just small ball the opponent. You can still win with Infernal Tutor and Lion's Eye Diamond when the opportunity presents itself, i.e no Force of Will after a Duress, or you want to play the deck in the reverse order and Mystical Tutor for Orim's Chant, but your general philosophy is to just grind the opponent out of the game by Duressing his counters and then casting threat after threat until he gives up the fight. You'll use Infernal Tutor to duplicate your cards more than you'll use it to win, and often you'll hard cast a Diminishing Returns and not sacrifice your LED when you have another threat in hand.
After Flash is gone, I think this version of 5c Tendrils is the best combo deck in the format, and it exploits skill more than the traditional versions of TES by virtue of it's additional threat density and Mystical Tutor's specificity. You can use MD Xantid Swarm instead of MD Duress if you want, but I think it significantly slows the deck down and weakens the non-blue aggro-control match up and the combo mirror.
Sorry for the bad formatting, I'm really tired and writing most of this from memory.
Edit: @Anti-American, Street Wraith definitely does not suck, I've played with it for more than a month, and I think it's one of the strongest cards in the deck. The synergy with Brainstorm, Mystical Tutor, Lion's Eye Diamond and Diminishing Returns is just insanely strong, and Mystical Tutor + Street Wraith into Orim's Chant is absolutely incredible in the Storm mirror. 56 cards is definitely the way to go.