Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nihil Credo
Spell Snare is by no means a bad topdeck. Tarmogoyf, Standstill, Burning Wish, Survival of the Fittest are still quite threatening on turn 30.
But the point is that it's not a surefire solution to whatever threat your opponent topdecks, where almost everything else in the deck is.
However, yes, Snare is a much better mid-to-late game topdeck for Landstill than Stifle or Thoughtseize. That said, I'd still rather almost always have Stifle or Snare than Thoughtseize given that Thoughtseize isn't reactive like the rest of the deck, nor is it blue.
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
@Pelikanudo
It depends on the build. If they play Rishadan Port, probably swap the counterspell for BEB, if not -1 Cunning -2 Standstill -Eternal Dragon +4 BEB
In the most other matchup usually swap the less useful removal in the pairing for Meddling Mage and/or Extirpate. Stifle is also sideout a lot.
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Well , I'm quite sacred to face a Gobbos match up and loosing, somenthig I dont want is loosing 1st game, cause 2nd and 3rd game vs gobbos playing even 4 E.Plague and 4 BeB you can loose anyway, so I've thougth in puttin 1 Tsabos drecree instead 1 BEB for side options, Opinions?
How do you side versus normal trehold, Balanced trehold , and tempo trehold(4stifle,4wastelnd)?
Is Ok to play Humility or Perni let it be destroyed by krosan and extirpate their krosan.
Respect to the Landstill mirror,
You are supposed to win the first game, in my opinion is the relevant one, if you win this game, the side plan is to take out for instance: 2 humilty, 1 swords -> in 3 extirpate, letting 1 in sideboard and beeing now in 2nd game our main goal ,extirpate our opponent's win conditions ,not more than 3-4, perfectly suitable for our build , ritgh?
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
tsado's decree cost like 6 mana. You really think that it is a good idea?
I think goblin matchup shouldnt be that hard with that much hate. You won't win all games, but the chances are on your side. Dont waste more sB slot to goblin
Robert
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Goblins is only a mild nuisance to the right build. Since they cut down on ports, my 4C build is actually favored, though a 4-port version leaves them slightly with the edge. And I only run 3 Plagues and 4 Blasts (Though if I expected lots of Goblins, I'd run that 4th Plague.)
Assigning your resources mentally is key. You don't ever counter Warchiefs or Piledrivers. Be careful about countering Vial too aggressively, also. Judge your hand. If you've got a Deed or C//P or EE with the land (And maybe a Stifle to protect the manabase), save your Force. What you want to counter are Ringleaders and Matrons. At all costs. Whether by Force, by Counterspell, or by Stifle. If these start resolving, you'll lose.
Mentally assign Edicts if you run them to lone Chiefs that hit the board. Swords early Lackeys. Deed away nuisances. And hope you hit your Plagues postboard. The rest of your deck is probably strong enough to hang in there until you do.
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tacosnape
What you want to counter are Ringleaders and Matrons. At all costs.
I don't see the point of always countering Matrons, particularly in the early game. Unless you're in the single digits of life, a 1/1 is not something that worries you, so you might as well let them spend another turn's worth of mana (especially in the early game, as I said) and then counter the Ringleader/Wort/SGC/Warchief that they tutor for. Which, incidentally also marginally reduces their threat density.
There are instances where it's optimal to counter the Matron, usually because you have no use for those two mana anyway and you want to drop a 3cc Enchantment next turn, or if you've got an Edict to use; but the majority of times I prefer to let that one resolve.
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nihil Credo
I don't see the point of always countering Matrons, particularly in the early game. Unless you're in the single digits of life, a 1/1 is not something that worries you, so you might as well let them spend another turn's worth of mana (especially in the early game, as I said) and then counter the Ringleader/Wort/SGC/Warchief that they tutor for. Which, incidentally also marginally reduces their threat density.
You're wrong. Period.
By waiting and countering the tutor target, you spend a card and they spend a card, and they have a threat on the table. By not waiting and countering the Matron, you spend a card and they spend a card, and they don't have a threat on the table.
The only advantage to not countering the Matron whatsoever is that you force your opponent to tap lands. Tempo isn't all that relevant when your strategy is to win the long term card attrition war. And if that isn't your strategy, you're playing it wrong.
You always counter the Matron (Or Stifle the ability). Always Always Always. He's one more guy that enables an Incinerator on your Factory, or another 2 per turn on what would otherwise be a lone Piledriver you could let live for ages, or another guy to be thrown with a Siege-Gang Commander. Or another guy who when combined with a Rishadan Port or Wasteland makes you lose superiority under a Standstill that you would have otherwise.
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
There are a few reasons to consider countering the target instead of the Matron:
1) There's an outside chance they might get something expensive and you can strand it with Wasteland
2) You can draw a better card. If instead of Forcing the Matron, you let it resolve and they get Piledriver/Warchief to play next turn, you might topdeck a better removal spell/counter to let you save the Force of Will.
3) Drawing threats out of their deck. With Matron/Ringleader, it's reasonable to expect them to see most of their good threats. Every Piledriver you let them pull out of their deck to counter is one they can't draw and play when you're not ready. Now obviously I'm not saying that you'd rather they start with the game with Land, Land, Land, Piledriver, Piledriver, Piledriver, Warchief. But think of it as vaccine; if you're healthy enough to deal with a form of a virus when you're ready, it won't hurt you later. Basically #3 says, "The worst feeling in the world is to counter Matron and have them topdeck the Ringleader anyway."
Now obviously, it's not always right to let it in (Vial much?), but I don't think it's always right to counter either.
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Has anyone tried :
Zur the Enchanter in a landstill build with Pernicous Deed and Stanstill?
This guy seems like a card advantage clock to me, each turn either netting you 3 cards via standstill or destroying everything with a pernicous deed so you can search for standstill with him next turn. That's like three cards per turn once you get him out. Also, he allows you to leave mana open after getting you standstill so you counter whatever breaks it. Another neat trick with him is attack, fetch deed, and blow deed before blockers are declared. He's also a nice blocker the turn you play him.
He also fetches Engineered plagues and COP's after boarding if anyone uses those. He's more mana intensive than FoF and doesn't net you card advantage right when you play him.
What are your thoughts on this guy: better/worse than FoF, include along side FoF? Thanks.
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Hmm. Nihil had a Zur deck for the CaNG, but I don't think it used a Landstill shell.
In any case, just because I really like the card, how about something like this:
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
3 Zur the Enchanter
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
SB: 4 Extirpate
SB: 4 Krosan Grip
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Dystopia
SB: 1 Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
Basically, Zur is highly unreliable as a tutoring engine, so including anything which you would be unhappy to draw is a bad idea. (Even the Plagues and bullets in the sideboard may be going too far.) Repeatedly casting Deeds, Standstills, and Counterbalances should be more than enough. And yeah, this means Zur is never going to attack for more than one, but unless someone comes up with an option which sucks less than Pemmin's Aura or Steel of the Godhead, you'll just have to repeatedly Ancestral Recall yourself and kill them with Factories. 23 lands because Top and I had to cut something; Thoughtseize because it's better protection for Zur than whatever countermagic you would be using after Force and Counterspell, also helps resolve Counterbalance, the deck as a whole is more proactive than traditional Landstill (closer to the Vorosh deck), and it's just simply a powerful as hell card and Zur being blue gives me all the opening I need to run it.
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Didn't see your reply. Anything, this is something I'd like to discuss more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tacosnape
You're wrong. Period.
By waiting and countering the tutor target, you spend a card and they spend a card, and they have a threat on the table. By not waiting and countering the Matron, you spend a card and they spend a card, and they don't have a threat on the table.
The only advantage to not countering the Matron whatsoever is that you force your opponent to tap lands. Tempo isn't all that relevant when your strategy is to win the long term card attrition war. And if that isn't your strategy, you're playing it wrong.
You always counter the Matron (Or Stifle the ability). Always Always Always. He's one more guy that enables an Incinerator on your Factory, or another 2 per turn on what would otherwise be a lone Piledriver you could let live for ages, or another guy to be thrown with a Siege-Gang Commander. Or another guy who when combined with a Rishadan Port or Wasteland makes you lose superiority under a Standstill that you would have otherwise.
First things first: Stifle is a completely different matter from Counterspell and Force of Will, and if I play Stifle I will gladly use it on Matron, because unlike actual counters it's only partially effective or completely dead against whatever Goblin they will fetch.
Second: you say tempo isn't all that relevant, and I highly, greatly, gargantuanly, ginormously disagree. I'm pretty sure you Stifle Lackey if you don't have Swords, and the only reason to do so is tempo. The Matron instance is not as dramatic, but the dynamic is the same:
Turn 3, Matron, I play Counterspell/FoW.
Turn 4, they play some other threats.
vs.
Turn 3, Matron, I let it resolve, maybe play Brainstorm/Wish/Dragon at EOT.
Turn 4, they swing for 1, play the Warchief/Ringleader they grabbed, i Cspell/FoW.
Turn 5, they play some other threats.
Just like Stifling the Lackey costs you a card to avoid a more or less Time Walk, countering the tutor target rather than the Matron itself costs you 1-4 life (depending on when you will sweep the board) in exchange for moving the game forward a full turn, i.e. one land drop.
On the play, that extra turn may allow you to play Pernicious Deed and keep Cspell mana open, or Fact or Fiction into a Swords to Plowshares/Stifle/BEB and play it right now. On the draw, it may let you drop Humility or play EE@2 to get rid of Piledriver, and so on: I'm sure I don't need to tell you how much better Landstill operates the more mana it has. Much more than Goblins does, for one.
One last point, and this is where I see your reasons to a degree: how relevant a 1/1 vanilla Goblin is on the board. This is highly dependant on board state and decklist: you usually play Diabolic Edict in your Landstill, so I can see why every extra body is a concern. Also, I may be biased by playing with Wish->Pulse of the Fields, which makes stabilising at 3 life much less dangerous than otherwise. And finally, there are certainly situations where the Matron can be more than a mere ping (a Standstill in hand comes to mind). But even so, I'm pretty sure lost far more games to being one mana short of what I needed to play my bombs than I did by being reduced exactly to zero or -2 life.
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Hey, I just wanted to post my build so I could get some feedback.
Lands:
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Nantuko Monastery
2 Wasteland
1 Island
Spells:
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Stifle
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cunning Wish
Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Extirpate
1 Krosan Grip
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Tsabo's Decree
1 Hunting Pack
I have a lot of trouble against mono red burn and a bit of trouble against suicide black. Every other matchup is from 50/50 to very favourable.
Feedback is appreciated!
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
galeng
Hey, I just wanted to post my build so I could get some feedback.
Lands:
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Nantuko Monastery
2 Wasteland
1 Island
Spells:
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Stifle
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cunning Wish
Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Extirpate
1 Krosan Grip
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Tsabo's Decree
1 Hunting Pack
I have a lot of trouble against mono red burn and a bit of trouble against suicide black. Every other matchup is from 50/50 to very favourable.
Feedback is appreciated!
No meddling mages in the SB? Also regarding the SB, Slaughter Pact would probably be better than Edict in case you need to play it right after you wish (and might not have the mana). MD I've found stifles pretty useless and most of the time when i ran them i would stifle a fetch (if im lucky) and board them out.
Here's my newest list that I'm pretty satisfied with. After a year without i finally got MWS to work and the deck has been doing well and i havent found any changes that need to be made.
Land [25]
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tolaria West
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Nantuko Monastary
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
spells [23]
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Cunning Wish
2 Decree of Justice
enchantment [8]
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
artifact [4]
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
Sideboard [15] (still tweaking)
4 Meddling Mage
3 Extirpate
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Krosan Grip
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 (undecided slot)
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
@ Frenger:
I'd suggest a singleton Tormod's Crypt for your last SBslot: You can fetch it with Tolaria West, E. Tutor and replay it via Academy Ruins plus I think 4 slots for grave based decks (Loam, Dredge etc..) is the absolut minimum.
BTW I play a singleton Engineered Plague in the board - E. Tutor doubles that as well obv. and it improves your Dredge and Tribal.dec MUs -- well worth the slot to me and really not random, as one might think at first glance.
Your mainboard looks cool to me. The only two things that I really miss are 1 basic Island and Humility. I'd probably cut a Deed and a FoF for 2 MD copies.
You canprobably also run a single Humility and board in that E. Tutor G2/G3 in respective MUs.
Cheers,
Klaus
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Illissius:
Thanks for taking up the Zur idea.
A couple of comments:
Landstill is already bad against blood moon effects, right?
Zur makes that worse because of his color requirements.
So a version that uses him might have to find a way to be more mana resilient.
My ideas include:
->Making the deck only 3 colors (UWB), but you lose out on pernicous deed fetching, which is one of Zur's strengths. Also, 3 color decks that are not "enemy triad colors" have a much easier time getting basics out to answer blood moon because they haven't made enemy color fetch lands yet.
-> Adding an extra basic land and some engineered explosives so you can hit things that cost 3 like the moon duo.
My other comment on your list is that there is no Tarmogoyf. I've conciderred 3 Tarmogoyf and 3 Pernicous deed in a list. You don't want to be TOO green-reliant because you now run a card that requires all three of the other colors.
Finally, is Thoughtseize really what you want in "Landstill". You say "protect zur" but I say "If your opponent wastes a lot of effort and removal spells on your 1/4, who cares". Landstill is a reactive deck. It doesn't want sorceries that wait in the hand while stanstill is out. It wants instants that answer whatever your opponent plays to pop the stanstill.
It's color intensive, but when you get down to it, is there really a blue based card advantage engine that racks up more cards than Zur + standstill or deed? If there is, I'm running it.
Thanks folks.
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
klaus
@ Frenger:
I'd suggest a singleton Tormod's Crypt for your last SBslot: You can fetch it with Tolaria West, E. Tutor and replay it via Academy Ruins plus I think 4 slots for grave based decks (Loam, Dredge etc..) is the absolut minimum.
BTW I play a singleton Engineered Plague in the board - E. Tutor doubles that as well obv. and it improves your Dredge and Tribal.dec MUs -- well worth the slot to me and really not random, as one might think at first glance.
Your mainboard looks cool to me. The only two things that I really miss are 1 basic Island and Humility. I'd probably cut a Deed and a FoF for 2 MD copies.
You canprobably also run a single Humility and board in that E. Tutor G2/G3 in respective MUs.
Cheers,
Klaus
So you board in the one plague to fetch with a wished for tutor? It's a bit of a stretch but i guess it's better that way than devoting 3 slots to plagues.
I attended a tournament last night just to watch (dont have the damn fetchlands) and there was alot of Aggro Loam and Survival, no threshold, one combo deck, one goblins, one dreadnaught, and some random decks (type 2 faeries, elves). The aggro loam matchup is the one i worry about the most and i think i might want to go to 4 extirpates in the side and then game two i board in 3 of them leaving the 4th wishable so it will be like im running 5 copies. This is because only one extirpate isnt enough to stop them (with burning wish and all the creatures). I was talking to the player and about the matchup and he asked me what do i extirpate? I told him that if he'd already burning wished for a loam, i would extirpate Loam first, but if he hasnt wished for loam, it would be a toss up between loam and a creature if one was in the grave. He was surprised and said i should always go for the creature first, which i thought was odd given i have so much removal. I'm curious what everyone's opinion on this is.
The amount of survival was also interesting and made me think about running stifles or trickbinds. For now i'm gonna roll with what might be a terrible idea and use trickbind as a wish target against survival.
My sideboard now is looking like:
Sideboard [15]
4 Meddling Mage
4 Extirpate
1 Blue Elemental Blast (is this just dumb?)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Krosan Grip
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Trickbind (is this just dumb?)
1 Tormod's Crypt (should this be plague or something else?)
Klaus: I'm probably going to have a single island in the MD to make BEB castable if i cant counter blood moon. Humility is the one card I want to fit in but haven't been able to. I'm not so keen on dropping a deed, because it's so strong in this deck, but enlightened tutor makes me wonder if its ok. Would the manabase need adjusting if i ran humility? I do only run 5 white sources not counting fetches.
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Frenger
There was a lot of Aggro Loam and Survival, no threshold, one combo deck, one goblins, one dreadnaught, and some random decks (type 2 faeries, elves).
If there's loads of Aggro Loam in your meta, there's no real reason to keep playing Landstill - you don't really want to expose yourself to one of your bad matchups if you can avoid it. It is not unwinable but not something you want to face more than once per tournament.
In your meta, I would play some sort of combo - no Threshold and lots of rather un-disruptive decks with slowish clocks are all good matchups for Solidarity, Fetchland Tendrils or similar (super secret secret tech: play Iggy Pop with maindeck Leylines - maindeck Leyline screw two of the most played decks in your metagame: Loam and Survival).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Frenger
The aggro loam matchup is the one I worry about the most and I think I might want to go to 4 extirpates in the side and then game two I board in 3 of them leaving the 4th wishable so it will be like I'm running 5 copies. This is because only one extirpate isn't enough to stop them (with burning wish and all the creatures).
Extirpate is pretty good against Loam - make sure to always hit Wasteland first if you can because Loam is just too easily recouped by a topdecked Burning Wish.
If you want some more stuff to side in against Aggro Loam, Blue Elemental Blasts are very good - having access to more counters/removal is gold because of their high threat density.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Frenger
I was talking to the player and about the matchup and he asked me what do i extirpate? I told him that if he'd already burning wished for a loam, i would extirpate Loam first, but if he hasnt wished for loam, it would be a toss up between loam and a creature if one was in the grave. He was surprised and said i should always go for the creature first, which i thought was odd given i have so much removal.
This depends on the build your opponent is playing.
If he is only playing 4 Tarmogoyf, 4 Terravore and 4 Countryside Crusher it can be a good move to get rid of the Vores/Crushers permanently. This is only a good move if he has no Wasteland and you have at least one spare Counter for Devastating Dreams though - if he can continue to make Card Advantage via Loam and keep you off a splash colour even a Tarmogoyf can go all the distance.
If he's playing a build with more creatures (Dark Confidants, Wild Mongrels or similar), there's no choice to be made: even without some big beats he can still kill you easily.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Frenger
The amount of survival was also interesting and made me think about running stifles or trickbinds. For now I'm gonna roll with what might be a terrible idea and use trickbind as a wish target against survival.
The Survival matchup is dumb - you just have to stall until you can resolve Humility and win. That simple.
If you're not already playing Humility, do include at least two of them - Humility just wins games on its own.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Frenger
Sideboard [15]
4 Meddling Mage
4 Extirpate
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Krosan Grip
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Trickbind
1 Tormod's Crypt
I would not play the Tormod's Crypt or the Trickbind because they are too narrow. The Slaughter Pact is also something I cut recently: I wished for it way too rarely - Wish for Enlightened Tutor for Deed, Explosive or Humilty fulfils about the same purpose (and against loads of creatures or when on low-life you always have Pulse of the Fields).
If you cut these three cards, you have some space for more Blue Elemental Blasts which will drastically improve your Loam matchup.
I'd also replace the Krosan Grip with a Seed Spark: Seed Spark is in a main colour (you are UW with splash B and G) making it easier to cast. The two chump blockers often very useful too. Also, the Split Second of Krosan Grip is only rarely relevant as Wish can be countered in the first place. Split Second against permanents is also rarely relevant as the competent Survival player will always Survival for Witness without passing priority after resolving it, neutering the bonus of Krosan Grip.
You could also try the sideboard Marius Hausman is currently playing (although I don't like it):
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Extirpate
3 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pulse of the Fields
He opts to play Leyline of the Void over Extirpates - this further improves your Loam matchup, the downside being that you loose some ground in the mirror and other control matchups due to the lack of additional Extirpates. Another drawback of Leyline is that it makes your deck more inconsistent which is never a good thing: you don't want to mulligan into it against Loam as it's not strong enough to warrant crippling your hand for it but on the other hand it's also a horrible topdeck (i.e. of a t1-2 Brainstorm).
You could play Wheel of Sun and Moon instead of Leyline to fix this problem but this doesn't harmonize with Deed at all (you're always going to activate it for 2 or more) and isn't as strong in other matchups (mainly Ichorid).
While I'm not totally opposed to Leyline, I don't think
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Frenger
Would the manabase need adjusting if I ran humility? I do only run 5 white sources not counting fetches.
I currently play 6 White sources (4 Tundra, 1 Scrubland, 1 Savannah) and don't need any more to support Humility and Pulse of the Fields - eight Fetchlands and one Eternal Dragon make the manabase incredibly strong.
For reference, here's my build:
The Wasteland could also be a Dust Bowl. If you're sticking with Wasteland, the Tolaria West can also be Wasteland n°2. Alternatively, the Wasteland can also be an Academy Ruins (in this case, keep the Tolaria West).
In your meta I'd probably go with the Academy Ruins or just with an additional fetchland or Tropical Island.
Anyway, if there's lots of Aggro Loam in your meta and if you want to keep on playing Landstill, I'd suggest you move on to a 3c build which has several advantages over 4c, especially in your meta:
- Wrath of God is often better than Pernicious Deed
- It doesn't give your opponent another turn to swing (often lethal, especially against Aggro Loam)
- It's easier to cast (again, good against Loam which can otherwise just keep you off Black or Green too easily)
- You don't need the flexibility of Deed as close to always all you want to kill are creatures (especially in your metagame)
- The better manabase is also some help against recurring Wastelands
A sample UWb List can be found here.
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Der_imaginäre_Freund
If there's loads of Aggro Loam in your meta, there's no real reason to keep playing Landstill - the matchup is just really bad. Not unwinable but not something you want to face more than once per tournament.
Also, in your meta, I would play some sort of combo - no Threshold and lots of rather un-disruptive decks with slowish clocks are all good matchups for Solidarity, Fetchland Tendrils or similar (super secret secret tech: play Iggy Pop with maindeck Leylines - maindeck Leyline screw two of the most played decks in your metagame: Loam and Survival).
Well, it was a 10 person tournament with 2 loam and 2 survival (one loam wasn't in the tournament but it was a guys other deck) I found it alot because in my meta in San Diego, USA I've never once played against Loam in 8 months of playing and there was only 2 guys who played survival who have been playing i since legacy was created, or at least a very long time. However, i still think loam and survival will be present in force.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund
Extirpate is pretty good against Loam - make sure to always hit Wasteland first if you can because Loam is just too easily recouped by a topdecked Burning Wish.
If you want some more stuff to side in against Aggro Loam, Blue Elemental Blasts are very good - having access to more counters/removal is gold because of their high threat density.
If they've already wished for loam, would extirpate on loam be a better choice than wasteland for the first extirpate?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund
This depends on the build your opponent is playing.
If he is only playing 4 Tarmogoyf, 4 Terravore and 4 Countryside Crusher it can be a good move to get rid of the Vores/Crushers permanently. This is only a good move if he has no Wasteland and you have at least one spare Counter for Devastating Dreams though - if he can continue to make Card Advantage via Loam and keep you off a splash colour even a Tarmogoyf can go all the distance.
If he's playing a build with more creatures (Dark Confidants, Wild Mongrels or similar), there's no choice to be made: even without some big beats he can still kill you easily.
From what i remember one loam player had only goyf vore and crusher, while the other had mongrels in addition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund
The Survival matchup is dumb - you just have to stall until you can resolve Humility and win. That simple.
If you're not already playing Humility, do include at least two of them - Humility just wins games on its own.
Thats the problem, i'm currently not running humility. I do think I will work it in though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund
I would not play the Tormod's Crypt or the Trickbind because they are too narrow. The Slaughter Pact is also something I cut recently: I wished for it way too rarely - Wish for Enlightened Tutor for Deed, Explosive or Humilty fulfils about the same purpose (and against loads of creatures or when on low-life you always have Pulse of the Fields).
If you cut these three cards, you have some space for more Blue Elemental Blasts which will drastically improve your Loam matchup.
I'd also replace the Krosan Grip by a Seed Spark: Seed Spark is in a main colour making it easier to cast and the two chump blockers are often very useful. Also, the Split Second of Krosan Grip is only rarely relevant as Wish can be countered in the first place. Split Second against permanents is also rarely relevant as the competent Survival player will always Survival for Witness without passing priority after resolving it, neutering the bonus of Krosan Grip.
Yeah i had a hunch cutting the BEB's was dumb. Seed Spark was a card that had never occured to me. In matchups other than survival where destroying artifacts or enchantments is relevant, do you think the 2 chump blockers is better than split second at the cost of an extra mana?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund
You could also try the sideboard Marius Hausman is currently playing (although I don't like it):
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Extirpate
3 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pulse of the Fields
He opts to play Leyline of the Void over Extirpates - this further improves your Loam matchup, the downside being that you loose some ground in the mirror and other control matchups due to the lack of additional Extirpates. Another drawback of Leyline is that it makes your deck more inconsistent which is never a good thing: you don't want to mulligan into it against Loam as it's not strong enough to warrant crippling your hand for it but on the other hand it's also a horrible topdeck (i.e. of a t1-2 Brainstorm).
You could play Wheel of Sun and Moon instead of Leyline to fix this problem but this doesn't harmonize with Deed at all (you're always going to activate it for 2 or more) and isn't as strong in other matchups (mainly Ichorid).
While I'm not totally opposed to Leyline, I don't think
I think extirpate is more useful than Leyline. If you draw into a leyline you will have to fetch a second black source which, if early, could hurt your manabase wheras extirpate is easier to cast. I also like the idea of having 5 available via wish. With BEB's also the loam matchup improves. If i ran 4 extirpates and 3 BEB's in my side, would you board in 3 extirpates and 2 BEB's so you could wish for them if need be, or would you board all of them in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund
I currently play 6 White sources (4 Tundra, 1 Scrubland, 1 Savannah) and don't need any more to support Humility and Pulse of the Fields - eight Fetchlands and one Eternal Dragon make the manabase incredibly strong.
The Wasteland could also be a Dust Bowl. If you're sticking with Wasteland, the Tolaria West can also be Wasteland n°2. Alternatively, the Wasteland can also be an Academy Ruins (in this case, keep the Tolaria West).
I run 5 white sources, 6 fetches + tolaria west (which could color fix if im desperate) Tolaria fetches me wasteland, monastery or academy, so i don't like to consider it a mana fixer as it has more important targets. If grip is replaced by seed spark, would it be smart to possible go 4 tundras and 2 Tropical island (making 3 green sources total with savannah)?
Also regarding the boarding plan for Loam, do you board in meddling mages? If so, what would be the first thing to name? I assume it depends on if you have an extirpate or not, but would you go after the creatures? (crusher?)
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Frenger
If they've already wished for loam, would extirpate on loam be a better choice than wasteland for the first extirpate?
If you have a backup Force of Will / Counterspell go for the Loam - if not, go for the Wastelands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Frenger
In matchups other than survival where destroying artifacts or enchantments is relevant, do you think the 2 chump blockers is better than split second at the cost of an extra mana?
It is - against Stax, having more Smokestack fodder is good, against Survival. having chumblockers for their Goyfs/Dorans for a turn or two is good, in the mirror, the two additional attackers are gold all definetely worth 1 additional mana.
If you don't want to play Seed Spark, go with Dismantling Blow - although you're only rarely going to play it with kicker, it's still better than Krosan Grip because of colour stability issues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Frenger
If I ran 4 extirpates and 3 BEB's in my side, would you board in 3 extirpates and 2 BEB's so you could wish for them if need be, or would you board all of them in?
Board them all in - Cunning Wish is too slow in this matchup.
This changes if they play Chalice of the Void: in this case I would leave the Cunning Wishes in and leave a single Extirpate in the sideboard to wish for - no Blue Elemental Blasts are needed in the board because Wish for a Counter is clunky and because you already have Enlightened Tutor as pseudo-removal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Frenger
Also regarding the boarding plan for Loam, do you board in meddling mages? If so, what would be the first thing to name? I assume it depends on if you have an extirpate or not, but would you go after the creatures? (crusher?)
This depends on the build of your opponent. If he plays more than 12 creatures, don't bring Meddling Mage in: I used to board Meddling Mages regardless of the build, but that was often just overboarding - they would just not care about Mages/Extirpates and just swarm me.
Naming with Meddling Mage depends largely on the situation - it really all depends on your hand/amount of countermagic/amount of removal/amount of Extirpates. A rough guideline would be that naming Life form the Loam with Meddling Mage fixes the issue of Burning Wish getting an Extirpated Loam back but, on the other hand, Meddling Mage is better than Extirpate at handling other things as he can proactively handle stuff (e.g. Devastating Dreams). If there's no Extirpate in sight, name Life from the Loam. If you have an Extirpate, use that on Loam and Mage something else (like Devastating Dreams or Burning Wish [getting Worm Harvest]).
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
After looking at your list, I toyed with the idea in my mind of cutting 3 Fact or Fiction for 2 Humility and 1 Eternal Dragon. This would allow me to cut 1 Nantuko Monastery in favor of a basic Island and possibly something else for a basic plains. I haven't decided yet what i like better, but i think i will do some testing on MWS with the changes.
As for the sideboard:
4x Meddling Mage
4x Extirpate
3x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Seed Spark
1x Pulse of the Fields
1x Undecided Slot
For the moment, i intend on playing 4c. I'm about 4 cards away from completion (fetchlands) and i haven't played in a tournament since i moved to France and I'm really just itching to play. I may build 3c later, and actually intend on getting the cards to be able to play both 3 and 4c depending on what i want to play, but if i go for 3c right now, i will have to get the cards for that before i can play, which i dont want to do. Luckily though, i bought some humilities on a whim with my last large purchase :)
Given that I will be playing 4c, i think this sideboard is as close to ideal as i can get vs aggro loam, and if i do end up running humilities, the survival MU will be better. The rest of them aren't so bad, as i actually enjoyed playing some casual games last night mopping up the various aggro decks (including the 2nd place) with a less than ideal list. (3 wastes and 3 stifles, no decrees, 2 monasteries what)