Does anyone have a good stock list with the new lord in it. I was using the old list that played tarmogoyf is he not needed anymore?
Printable View
Does anyone have a good stock list with the new lord in it. I was using the old list that played tarmogoyf is he not needed anymore?
I played Elf Survival at GenCon as well.
T8'd the Thursday prelims.
Got 9th on Friday prelims.
Scrubbed out in the Champs :(
I'll post my list and reports after I get my thoughts together on them (stupid work getting in the way!)
Here's my GenCon Thursday Prelims Report:
Here's the decklist I played:
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Natural Order
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Priest of Titania
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Quirion Ranger
3 Elvish Champion
3 Elvish Archdruid
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Masticore
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Mirror Entity
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Progenitus
1 Harmonic Sliver
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
5 Forest
Sideboard:
4 Absolute Law
4 Gaddock Teeg
3 Choke
3 Krosan Grip
1 Caller of the Claw
Match 1: vs Canadian Thresh
Game 1: He gets out an early Mongoose and Fire's some of my guys (that card wrecks me since it's almost always a 2-for-1 against me). I actually get out Magus, Quirion Ranger, Llanowar Elf, and Archdruid out against his lone Mongoose and I'm racing him for awhile (I get to swing for 8 one turn!), then he topdecks another Fire, kills the Magus, Brainstorms into Lightning Bolt and Fire #3. Ouch. I got him down to 5, but he drops a Goyf and that seals the deal for him.
-1 Masticore
-1 Birchlore Rangers
-1 Magus of the Moon
-1 Harmonic Sliver
+4 Absolute Law
Game 2: I drop Forest and Quirion Ranger, then a Savannah. He drops a Volcanic Island, then drops a Wasteland and tries to Waste my Savannah. I return it to my hand via Ranger in response. He proceeds to not draw lands for awhile. I resolve Survival, then Mirror Entity out on him.
Game 3: He keeps a greedy hand (he told me after the match) of Volcanic, Brainstorm, Goyf, Goyf, Mongoose, Mongoose. I dropped Fyndhorn, Survival (got Spell Snared), Fyndhorn, Absolute Law (he bolts an Elf in response), Survival #2. He drops a big Goyf and the board is his Goyf against my Fyndhorn, but I have Absolute Law and Survival. Since Survival #2 resolved, I was guessing he didn't have Force, so I went for it - Natural Order! It resolves and the big P hits the table. He drops his second Goyf and a Mongoose, I swing for 10, then drop Mirror Entity and Quirion Ranger just to block. He can't get enough to kill me and scoops.
1-0 (2-1)
Match 2 - UGw Countertop
Game 1: We both mull to 6. I keep a slow but decent hand of Forest, Forest, Fetch, ESG, Perfect, Archdruid. I T2 Archdruid, which resolves, while he drops a Top. He Forces my Perfect though, then sends my Archdruid farming when I attack. He then drops Goyf, Jitte, then Forces my Harmonic Sliver and that's game.
Game 2: I mull to 5, get stuck 1 land for awhile while he lands Qsali Pridemage and Jitte. Sadly, I actually lose 1 turn before I could start stabilizing and coming back (I had actually managed to get Survival on the board and kill the Jitte with a Harmonic). Sad times.
1-1 (2-3)
Match 3: vs Merfolk
Game 1: He cracks a fetch into... Hallowed Fountain? I think for a moment about what deck plays Hallowed Fountain then I shrug and drop a mana elf. I find out next turn when he drops a Silvergill Adept, then drops a Wake Thrasher. However, I drop a Quirion Ranger, Priest, then Survival... all of which resolve. I shrug and T3 I'm 1 mana off from going off, but I end the turn with Symbiote/Priest/Mirror Entity on the board. He drops some more merfolk and make me show him my infinite damage combo before he scoops.
Game 2: He drops a Tidal Warrior and picks at me for 1 while I drop some 1 drop elves, then Perfect, Perfect, Champion and proceed to beat the crap out of him.
2-1 (4-3)
Match 4: vs Vial Affinity
Game 1: He drops Great Furnace and Vial and I instantly know what he's playing. He proceeds to drop Ravager and Disciple with some other stuff while I get T2 Survival. I can't go off T3, but I'm ready to go infinite T4 and kill him. Unfortunately, I believe I got caught by a bad judge ruling here. On his turn, he goes for the kill on me. He attacks, I block the Disciple. He vials in a Master of Etherium, then sacs a bunch of crap to his Ravager, floating 1R, then tries to Fling it after combat damage. I point out that mana pools empty between steps and he doesn't have mana in his pool anymore. He disagrees, so I call a judge. Judge says I'm right... but then allows him to rewind the game to before he sacrificed all his crap! Wtf. I should've called appealed to the head judge on this. He ends up killing me by Flinging the Master at me instead and I lose.
Game 2: I aggro with lords and beat him to death.
Game 3: I get out Progenitus and he tries to kill me, but I have the Grip in hand to stop him moving tokens around when he tries to target his guy with 6 modular counters.
4-1 (6-4)
Match 5: vs Zoo
Game 1: I live my dream and get T2 Natural Order. Zoo has pretty much no answer to this and I win.
Game 2: T2 Grim Lavamanacer - sad times.
Game 3: I use my mad ninja cutting skills and my opponent mulls to 4. He has an amazing hand though and despite my many attempts to lose, my deck keeps wanting to win and I "Oops, I won" with a Hasty Progenitus.
5-1 (8-5)
Match 6: vs 43 Land
We have enough points to ID into the T8, which we do.
Top 8: Canadian Thresh
Game 1: I make a mistake and play Priest instead of just going for Survival (I had 2 in my hand). The tempo loss when he kills my priest slows me down too much and I can't recover.
Game 2: I drop a Fyndhorn Elf, then go for Survival, which gets Forced. I make a huge mistake and drop the second Fyndhorn and of course, he had Fire for both my mana elves. A Wasteland leaves me with empty board and 1 forest. Many many turns later as we play draw-go, he gets a Threshed Goose out and 2 Forces + Burn spells and I'm done.
At least I got 9 packs out of it!
Here's my tournament report of the Friday Legacy prelims:
48 players this time, but 6 rounds still. I actually expected fewer because the Vintage Champs was going on at the same time, but guess more people in general just showed up.
Slight modification to my list from Thursday. Because of the amount of Canadian Thresh I was seeing, I wanted to have beefier dudes.
So I went:
-1 Masticore
-1 Birchlore Rangers
+2 Tarmogoyf
in the maindeck and:
-1 Caller of the Claw
-3 Gaddock Teeg
+1 Birchlore Rangers
+2 Tarmogoyf
+1 Masticore
in the Sideboard.
Round 1 vs Ugr Dreadstill
Game 1: I keep a hand with T2 Progenitus potential. However, my opponent dropping a Tropical Island T1 stops me from going for it. I try and get down Survival and Imperious Perfects, but those get countered while he drops Top, then Counterbalance. I'm still not quite sure what he's playing, but I draw out enough Forces and eventually resolve Natural Order, which goes all the way.
Game 2: He goes first and goes T2: Dreadnaught / Stifle. Ouch - I know what I'm up against now. Dreadnaught goes all the way quickly.
Game 3: I mull to 5 and keep a potentially good hand with Quirion Ranger, Survival, and Imperious Perfect. He drops a T2 Standstill, which I of course have to crack with Survival, which he Forces. He then proceeds to chain Standstills into more Standstill + Force. A Firespout clears away my board and a Goyf beats my face in.
Great way to start the prelims.
0-1 (1-2)
Round 2 vs UR Control
Game 1: He dropped a Volcanic Island, then CB so I put him on a CB/Top control deck again. I landed a Llanowar and a Quirion Ranger and began 1/1 beats for a few turns as he countered my lords. He played an Imperial Recruiter, grabbing a Trinket Mage, so I put him on NL Painter. The Mage grabbed an EE, but I landed a Survival, quickly fetching out Anger. He actually was maindecking Relic and I forced him to blow it to get rid of Anger. Squee then went into the graveyard and I overwhelmed him with elf lords.
Game 2: He Forced my lords again, but I managed to resolve Natural Order and the big P got there.
1-1 (3-1)
Round 3 vs Ugr Lorescale Cb/Top
Game 1: He gets down CB/Top, but not before I can get a bunch of elf lords + Mirror Entity out. I force him to chump with his Lorescale and Goyf, costing him both his guys, but he didn't die. His Sower stole my Mirror Entity, but it wasn't that problematic as I then resolved a Hasty Progenitus and finished the game.
Game 2: We're racing with his Goyf beating me up, but I actually get my Mirror Entity and Symbiote out (can't immediately go off). He drops CB along with his Top, but even though he can stop my combo, I have enough elves out to just activate the Mirror Entity for lethal without going infinite.
2-1 (5-1)
Round 4 vs Mono White Stax
Game 1: I have a T2 Progenitus hand and I'm on the play. He drops an Ancient Tomb, so I go for it on my turn. On his turn, he drops Ghostly Prison, telling me he's playing White Stax - finally, after all the White Stax I saw floating around the past few days, I get to play a good matchup. I drop a land and swing in, paying 2 for Ghostly Prison. His T3, he drops another Ghostly Prison. I topdeck a land like a champ and swing in for lethal next turn.
Game 2: I keep a hand with Quirion Ranger, Savannah, 3 1-drop mana elves but only 1 land. On his turn, he plays a Tomb. I drop the Ranger on my turn because I don't want him to Waste my land. In hindsight, I should've just dropped a Llanowar because even if he Wasted my land, I'd still have bought a turn to draw more lands. He drops a Trinisphere on his turn, which of course I can't play another elf because I only have 2 mana available via the Ranger. He O-Rings my Quirion Ranger, then Wastes my land and I get beat to death by Mishra's Factories before I can recover.
Game 3: I start off with my usual mana elf. He drops a Chalice for 1, but I get out Survival and fetch out the Magus (he hadn't dropped a Mox Diamond and I noticed he had only Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors out, so no White mana) and played it. Sure enough, he dropped another City and eventually a Flagstones, but the Magus kept him off his mana long enough for me to assemble the combo pieces (using Birchlore for white mana) and then I popped his Chalice with a Harmonic Sliver and went off.
3-1 (7-2)
Round 4 vs Ugw CB/Top + Natural Order
Game 1: He gets out an early Goyf and then assembls CB/Top. PtE and Swords keeps me off of my mana elves and Survival gets countered. Ouch.
Game 2: I get a fast start going and start dropping Imperious Perfects. Near the end of the game, he resolves Natural Order, but I'm holding Natural Order myself and he's out of cards in hand. Our Progenitii kill each other in a deadly duel of the Legend Rule and my elves get there.
Game 3: Really really close game. We actually go to time on this one. When time is called, he's up 22 to my 1 (via Rhox Warmonk). He has Goyf and Warmonk on the board against my 2 Llanowar Elves, Archdruid, Perfect, and Champion. He swings in with just the Warmonk and I block with a 4/4 Llanowar. Turns out he doesn't have a removal spell and the Warmonk bites it. Over the next few turns, I swing for 8, then 12, then lethal for the win on T5 of extra turns.
4-1 (9-3)
After 5 rounds, I'm 4-1 so I should be able to draw in. However, when they post up the standings, it turns out there were 6 players with 10 points, 4 players with 12 points (I'm a 12 pointer), and two people with 13 points. If you do the math, if the 12+ point guys draw, one of them would not get in because you would have 3 players from the 10 pointer matches getting 13 points. Plus, there were still a bunch of 9 pointers as well, so there would be a bunch of 12 point guys running around after round 6.
We had to play it out. &*@#$$.
Round 6 vs Canadian Thresh
Game 1: I keep a ridiculous hand with mana elves, Survival, 2 Perfects, and a Magus. He drops a Volcanic Island T1 and pitches Fire/Ice to FoW my Survival. I curse at seeing Fire/Ice, but rejoice at him pitching it to Force. My first Perfect gets Fire'd, but the second one sticks. I drop the Magus next turn and then draw + play a third Perfect. A Champion gets my guys waaay out of burn range and I overwhelm him with elf tokens.
Game 2: My guys get burned. My lands get wasted and stifled. The other green men cry.
Game 3: We're going back and forth, but my Absolute Law gets Spell Snared and I'm wrecked by Pyroclasm. Sad times.
4-2 (10-5)
Even with my loss, there's still a shot of me making T8 since a few 12 pointers will get in.
I finish... 9th! *@%&^$!!!
Burning wish is too slow in this deck.
I played this deck to a top 4 finish today at a local tournament. A lot of old faces from the Gamer’s Guild, that’s old school Albany, New York for those that didn’t know. This place is like the last place that holds weekly Legacy tournaments in the Albany/Saratoga area, tucked away nicely in the middle of nowhere. There were probably about 15 people playing, not the most impressive field ever, but here's my list/report anyway.
4 Survival
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Anger
1 Squee
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Priest of Titania
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Archruid
3 Elvish Champion
3 Wren's Run Vanquisher
1 Viridan Zealot
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Talara's Battalion
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
2 Savannah
7 Forest
SB:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Choke
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Absolute Law
1 Thornweald Archer
Round 1: Steve Normandin with White Stax (Braves54321)
Game 1: I'm on the draw and open a decent hand. He plays a first turn Trinisphere, Turn 2 Smokestack. It gets to a point where I stop playing lands and put him on the spot to win the game, but he simply finds another Smokestack and gets rid of his old one, letting the new one just chill with no counters. I can do nothing against the Trinisphere and move to game 2.
Game 2: I play a first turn Mana elf, he goes turn 1 Trinisphere again. I play a Priest of Titania and pass. He fumbles on mana here and passes. I land an Archdruid and Vanquisher next turn and start the beats. He draws a plains and Wraths. Ouch. I draw Survival for my turn, play it, and start hitting him with hasted guys. He'd been shocking himself with Ancient tomb for awhile, and I was just able to squeeze in those last points of damage.
Game 3: This game was down to the wire. He plays a Wrath to kill 5 elves, including two lords on his turn 4 or 5. I begin to recover with a Survival and two lands in play, grabbing a Fyndhorn Elf and Quirion Ranger, while he manages to drop 2 Magus of the Tabernacle. The Krosan Grip in my hand sits idle, and with nothing of his to target. Steve is at 4 because of his Ancient Tombs and a few hits from elves. His EOT, I tap my elf to Survival for Vanquisher (my only good card in this situation). Since I only had two land in play, there was no way both my guys were going to live, especially since they weren't gonna do much against two 2/6 walls. I Untap, Pay for my Ranger with 1 land and the Fyndhorn elf, which dies to Magus. I activate Ranger to replay the land, Play Vanquisher, and Swing for 3. He blocks with his Magus to preserve his life total. His turn he swings in with Magus and I let it trough, going to 18. He Wrath's the board second main, going to two life from Ancient Tomb. I play an Imperious Perfect and get in there next turn. A great game, he informs me his opening hand had triple wrath, but with Ancient Tomb... it's tough. Always cool to come back from losing game one tho. : )
1-0 (2-1)
Round 2: Bre with G/B/w Rock (B is for Bigjob)
Game 1: He wins the roll, but I open with a nutty hand including Survival and Natural Order. he plays land go, I go land -> Elf. He makes a Tarmogoyf. I play a Survival and pass. He smothers my elf and attacks. Next turn I Survival out something for Anger, Anger for Squee, and Squee for Llanowar Elf. He Vindicates my Survival and attacks with a very large Goyf, but my next turn is sick. Turn 4, play my 4th land. Llanowar elf with Haste, Tap everything for 4, Natural Order for Hasty Progenitus. He scoops shortly after.
Game 2: I was confident with my opening 7. It was something like, 2 Land, 1 Mana Elf, a Perfect, an Archruid, and 2 Natural Order. Even better, He opens with turn 1 Duress. Unfortunately tho, his turn 2 Confidant isn't dealing him any damage, and the card advantage buries me. He Witnesses back Duress to nab my second Natural Order. He lands two Tarmogoyfs shortly after, and then Doran joins the party. He's at 12 life, and I chump blocked for a couple turns before getting overrun, hoping for an Elvish Champion off the top to steal the win, but it isn't meant to be.
Game 3: He mulligans himself to death here. Not his fault, I don't think he drew any land. I open a nice elf draw tho. 2 Land, 1 Mana elf, Vanquisher, 2 Archruid, Imperious Perfect. I play Land -> Elf. He plays a turn 1 Duress... taking nothing. Turn 2 Archdruid, Turn 3-4 Vomit my hand was good enough to win this one.
2-0 (4-2)
Round 3: Unregged with Mono B Zombies.
I wasn't too excited to play against this deck. I knew he was playing Withered Wretch and Extirpate maindecked, which can make using Survival very tricky (but what the hell, that’s awful anyways). This was a best of 4 rounds tournament, so this match determined if I made top 4. He wins the die roll, and away we go.
Game 1: He opens turn 1 Vial, and I play land go. He plays a turn 2 Withered Wretch and I cry a bit inside. I opt to play my Priest turn 2 instead of the Survival in my hand. He plays a Lord of the Undead turn 3, and smacks me for 3 with Wretch. Next turn I play a Vanquisher and Survival. He ramps vial to 3 and plays a Grave Defiler, luckily flipping nothing. He makes the right decision not to attack with the Wretch, and I'm stuck in a tough spot. I can go for Squee and Anger now and settup Survival, but he could Wretch those away, and I'm left with nothing. I chose to go for it, having not much else going for me, hoping that he’d misplay it, or perhaps need the mana. I get two lords into play via Preist and the Archdruid that I Survivaled for, and swing with a 5/5 Vanquisher. He makes a wierd move here, and double blocks with Wretch and Defiler. I forgot that it had Regenerate He kills my Vanquisher, Regenerates, and lets his Wretch die. This puzzled me, but the second Withered Wretch a turn after explained it. Oddly enough tho, he tapped out to play another Grave Defiler, to flip nothing of importance, and attacked me with all of his zombies to 6 while I had no blockers. I returned Squee during my upkeep and prayed to draw a creature. I didn’t, but I think about it for awhile. He's got an untapped vial at 4, and 1 untapped Grave defiler. I figure, He's gotta have another 4 drop creature as his last card. If he does, my board doesn't get in there for enough damage after he blocks two creatures. He's at 11, and another lord only gets him to 2. I do the math, and I realize that Talara’s Battalion would definitely get in there. I Play one of the 2 useless Survivals sitting in my hand, play the Battalion, and Swing FTW. It was a 6/4 Haste Trample for 2. Pretty fucking solid at that point. I’d suggest trying him at least, It’s a solid finisher, and totally saved me here.
Game 2: This isn’t pretty from the beginning. He goes, Turn 1 Vial, Turn 2 Withered Wretch, Turn 3 Duress-> Hymn, and I’m pretty sunk after that. I try doing things with Survival, but Fleshbag Marauder + Lord of the Undead = a very sad Elf deck. He really ended it with Damnation. He just answered all my shit. Tough stuff, but good thing it’s not over.
Game 3: I see Priest of Titania, Survival, Survival, Natural Order, and 3 Lands. I kept it, and got burned by his turn 1 Duress. I draw Llanowar Elves, and play Priest of Titania turn 2. He plays a Withered Wretch to really fuck my day up, but what do I see if the top of my library? Natural Fucking Order. Card is SO good, ignore all the hate. Best Card I could ask for, but I wasn’t really out of the woods. If I sac my Priest, Progenitus is the only thing in play. Fleshbag beats that, and I know he’s playing Damnation. I decide to go for it anyway, because it’s the last thing he’s expecting, having taken my first one with Duress. The look on his face told me that he had something that could save him in his hand. He draws and plays a Cemetary Reaper. I say Cool! He tells me that he’s holding Damnation, and all he needs is a land off the top, which scares the hell out of me. With a third of his deck as outs... he whiffs the draw, and extends his hand.
3-0 (6-3)
Round 4 I drew with Sims, playing his list of Burn with Mogg Fanatics. We played them out just for fun and he won it 2-0. Boarded in the Thorns and Absolute Laws, Thorn wasn’t spectacular against him (probably not news to anyone ). Grim Lavamancer didn’t give a shit, tough to be on the other end of that! Fun games.
3-0-1 (6-5?)
We split the top 4, and rolled a d20 for the extra pack. I go first and get a 10, Sims gets a 10 right after me, Josh Wilkins gets a solid 16! But Norm comes back with a Vengeance, with a sick 18. It was nuts!
The deck performed really smoothly all day. Some of my openers were just about perfect, and it seemed like a bunch of people were playing Forests, and that’s always a decent matchup with Elvish Champion. Overall I think I played the right deck. It was really just Natural Order that won it all tho. I gotta say, I think that card's really busted, especially in a deck where there are many other paths to victory. Everyone was a solid opponent, with solid decks to boot. Thanks for reading.
Thanks for the reports.
I currently play 11 lords (4-4-3champions), 4 llanowar, 4 fyndhorn, 4 priets, 3 goyfs, 1 packmaster and all the regular stuff.
I feel that I am generating too much mana, with only one 'mana sink' being packmaster. Ofcourse it is awesome, but ... if it gets destroyed i am stuck with my insane amounts of mana and nothing to put it into.
Did anyone else experience this?
I was thinking of adding a second mana sink, mirror or masticore.
Any advice?
Also, I feel that playing 8 mana elves + 4 priests + 4 archdruids is a bit overkill ... in the mana field.
I just read about talaria batalion, which seems indeed good since it is relatively large (+ gets bonuses) and can trample through almost anything. Only drawback is that when you are in survival mode and draw a forest, you can't play it ...
I really like this deck, but sometimes I lack a bit of power (with lots of 1/1 creatures who generate lots of mana) so I'm considering on cutting down the amount of 'mana elves' for more versatile or beefier creatures.
Thanks for any thoughts ;-)
So, I finished our monthly tournament on Sunday the 23rd after 7 rounds swiss at 6th place by 78 participents.
I played following list:
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Eles
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Imperious Perfect
2 Elvish Champion
4 Sylvan Messenger
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Proginitus
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Natural Order
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept heath
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Gaea's Cradle
3 Taiga
3 Forest
Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tsunami
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Caller of the Claw
1 Steely Resolve
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Loaming Shaman
Don't ask why I'm playing a Tropical. In my first version I played Wonder. I took it out and forgot the Trop.
The sideboard was build like this because I didn't find my Rules of Law. I've never needed Krosan Grip. Against U-Deck like Landstill etc, I always boarded in Tsunami, Caller, Gaddock and Magus.
After the tournament I asked myself why I played Tsunami instead of Boil. Any expiriences?
@Teumie: IMO you don't generate too much mana with you elves. For sure you need some outs to use that much amount, but you could use cards like Packmaster, Masticore or Mirror Entity. On the other hand, if you have a survival, you can spend the mana to fill the board.
I had two or thre times the situation, that I only had an survival and 2-3 elves and play Messenger, untap Archdruids and Priest with Ranger, get haste with Anger and deal about 15-20 damage in one turn.
I've been testing more and more, and I've come to the conclusion that I want moar genesis. He is on color, and he can be pretty good in lists running messenger.
I started running Genesis, when I was playing this. There is so much that can wreck your day that's it's nice to be able to recover pretty quickly.
I've considered Genesis as well and would like to fit him into the deck too. He seems really good mid-late game when you've had your board swept and all you have is a bunch of lands in play.
Genesis was mainly entered into my build as a way of recurring Viridian Zealot to handle multiple Moats, Confinements, and Energy Field. And then there has been the added bonus of getting back useful one ofs I had to pitch to Survival to get Squee rolling.
And, because of it's long time inclusion in my build I've started testing Spore Frog. I know I've started down the road towards a more generic RGW Survival build that just happens to run elves. I just don't have enough experience with spore frog yet to say anything past 'its awesome against goblins.'
Spore frog has no place in this deck. Goblins will gempalm EOT, and kill you with an alpha strike. And you already have a good match against almost anything that it would be good against.
Are you really that confident in the Ichorid matchup?Quote:
Originally Posted by beastman
...
Yep. Genesis isn't bad though. Not really maindeck material, but a great sb slot .
On another note, I've been working heavily on the deck to increase the matchup percentages against bad matchups (aka those with sweepers/combo) and have been trying a lot of unorthodox and weird stuff, but the results are decent. I've primarily been testing with disruption suites a lot including stuff like Cabal Therapy, Thoughtseize, and Wasteland. The issue with the bad matchups is that we have nothing to stop them from ruining our gameplan or killing us before we can do anything, so it's interesting seeing the deck try it. I'm not going to release a list just yet, but I'll at least mention matchups like Aggro Loam, Landstill, and Ichorid have gotten significantly better while some of our good matchups aren't necessarily as good as before, but still favorable. I'll also mention that the lists I've been testing have *gasp* cut Survival completely. Nothing concrete by any means, but that's worth noting for those who are curious.
Yes, yes I am. I consistently get enough guys down fast enough that unless they swarm you with a quick FKZ, it's very hard to lose. And at that point, they are killing you even if you have spore frog.Quote:
Originally Posted by Di
I have a question, what version do you think is better? the one with only elves or the other with better top decks like tarmogoyf?
Maybe is better the goyf one because is better topdeck a tarmogof instead an elf except if you have some lords in play.
I mean that if your opponent clears the board or is killing/countering all your elves is better to draw goyf than archdruid or another elf...
For me, I've played both versions and I think it really depends on what you're going to be up against.
Against decks that run a lot of red burn, Goyfs were better because it takes multiple removal spells to get rid of them.
Against decks running white/black spot removal, I liked more elves better because you can go more nuts with your combos (ME/Packmaster/Natural Order) and Survival faster and more easily.
Against Red based mass removal (Firespout, Pyroclasm), Goyf was better. Against White mass removal (Humility, Wrath) you're hosed either way - Elves are a little bit better, I think since you can potentially aggro them out a little faster than if you were using Goyfs.
Against Combo like Ad Nauseum, you're going to lose anyways, but Elves are better since Goyfs tend to be smaller and slower.
Just my $0.02.
The concerns I've always had with Messenger are whether or not the deck still gains enough CA with Messenger when you're siding out your Elves for your sb hate cards.
Usually, I side out a good amount of messengers after board.
I have been play testing this and its been great so far.
Creatures
3 Elvish Champion
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Wellwisher
2 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Priest Of Titania
4 Sylvan Messenger
3 Quirion Ranger
Legendary Creatures
1 Progenitus
Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Natural Order
Basic Lands
9 Forest
Lands
4 Bayou
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard:
4 Steely Resolve
4 Krosan Grip
3 Tsunami
3 Extirpate
1 Elvish Champion
Therapy is great for any match, it will help with the combo and control ones particularly. Extirpate in the side plus sacrifice effects of therapy/order will improve the ichorid match up significantly. You could debate the champion sb but I had a one of slot and its good againsts forests, idk this slot didnt seem to matter. The loss of survival is helpful do to it not pumping opposing goyfs up to 5/6 or 6/7 status which is nice.
Wellwisher is just retarded, add in the 3rd ranger which has been fantastic and I wouldnt go less than 3 anymore it becomes even more solid. If you can get steely resolve + wellwisher down your sligh/zoo matchups get pretty decent as well.
Theres another thread for that one quack, it's called elves! and it sucks. Why did you decide to cut the dominant, and possibly best card in the deck?
That was my idea, and his list is based off the concept I pitched to him of shifting the deck to pure aggro with disruption. My reasoning behind this is that I feel the Survival engine doesn't do enough against the bad matchups the deck has as it is slow, resource intensive, and vulnerable, not to mention can lead to inconsistent draws/mulligans/topdecks. I mentioned this in my last post on the previous page, although I'm assuming nobody noticed it.
In taking this approach (and nothing's definate here, it's just something I'm testing), the deck has more consistent draws, a more explosive draw engine, and the ability to hinder the opponent's gameplan enough to stop them from shutting you down. Basically, I don't see cutting Survival as an issue with decreasing any of our positive matchup percentages. We still can just as easily run over Merfolk, Goblins, Threshold, etc, but this list trades that tutor power with the ability to hurt opposing manabases with Wasteland (Landstill and Tempo Thresh come to mind), and hit key spells so you can force through your bombs (Therapy on WoG, FoW, Devastating Dreams, Counterbalance, etc). Running Cabal Therapy in a deck with 30 creatures, not to mention one that makes tokens, is insane. It also gives the deck at least a chance at winning the combo match. It's simply an idea worth looking into, because I really dislike the fact that the deck is absolutely helpless against problematic spells.
Here's the initial draft I've been working on:
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Priest of Titania
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Champion
4 Sylvan Messenger
3 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
3 Wasteland
4 Forest
Basically, it just substitutes the Survival engine for a pure Sylvan Messenger + Wirewood Symbiote engine. I personally like this more right now because I'm able to see a lot of creatures and play them out faster than with a SotF engine, and Wirewood Symbiote is very strong for the deck atm as it takes a bullet for the lords as it fights against removal. If it stays, then Messenger will go bonkers. I like Wasteland a lot in here as you're basically guaranteed a turn 1 play, and there is very little tempo loss to you as you're always ahead on acceleration. I'm only running 3 currently due to occasionally opening hands without a green source, but I may go up to 4 if I bump the land count to 19. Otherwise, the deck has been performing really well. The control matchups have significantly improved as I've been able to quickly play out 3-4 creatures and Wasteland to buy enough time to prevent a sweeper, and Therapy has been golden against virtually every deck. Plus in a pinch it can at least discard your own Progenitus. The white is still for sideboard only, as the deck can't afford to not run Absolute Law in this metagame; it's too damn good against red. The only issue with this build is that it's a bit more vulnerable to Wasteland and Moon effects, although I don't feel that's a problem given the deck runs such a high amount of acceleration and a trio of Quirion Rangers.
Now technically this build doesn't belong in this thread so I won't really discuss it in here, but I think it was worth mentioning as it's something worth looking at for the deck to continue to compete in the metagame.
Why not run the ME combo? It wouldn't be too hard to get with the messengers.
Wirewood Herald + Cabal Therapy was absolutely nuts in Crystalline Elves (remember that deck?).
It's probably at least worth a test in here if we go the Cabal Therapy route.
This seems like a pretty great idea. It might actually make g1 vs combo winnable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuma
The original list has them but I cut them as they were inconsistent. If I was able to assemble the combo then I was going to win anyway because I'd go through enough of the deck already, and other times I would've preferred a lord in their place to beef the rest of the team. It isn't bad, but without the tutoring power I just didn't like it. It just felt like win more, plus it was occasionally difficult fetching for black and white, but that's nitpicking. It could find it's place in the deck again, maybe over a lord, but I don't think I'd run more than 1, as there's no space for a 2nd.Quote:
Why not run the ME combo? It wouldn't be too hard to get with the messengers.
That combo is nuts, I agree, but Herald is far too weak on its own. Without the ability to add mana, pump guys, or anything else significant on its own I can't really warrant the spot. It's a poor topdeck, and that was one of the main reasons I cut the SotF engine in the first place.Quote:
Wirewood Herald + Cabal Therapy was absolutely nuts in Crystalline Elves (remember that deck?).
It's probably at least worth a test in here if we go the Cabal Therapy route.
On it's own, it's insurance against a sweeper. If it eats 'removed from the game' removal prior to damaged based removal, it is one less pointed at a Lord (which they also have to find an answer) (although you could argue another lord would be just as effective).Quote:
Originally Posted by Di
I think you're undervaluing Wirewood Herald. He's fantastic against anything that runs sweepers or makes significant use of the combat phase, as well as with Cabal Therapy. As for being a poor topdeck, he's not a poor topdeck if you have a Therapy in hand or the yard or against either of the above deck archetypes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Di
If your opponent Deeds, Firespouts, cracks EE, etc. you search for Caller of the Claw and win.
Chump-blocking goyf and getting an Eyeblight's Ending or Lord/Messenger is excellent as well.
Versus most decks in the format he's at worst half of a two-card combo.
I really like the idea of Eyeblight's Ending in this deck. Also, why not try Thoughtseize in here as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuma
Since we're bringing up anti-sweeper tech, how do you guys evaluate Prowess of the Fair? playable? testable?
I agree that cutting Survival is likely the right direction to take this deck. It seems that you're generating an awful lot of mana though with not much to do with it. I haven't tested this particular list but my other concern is that the number of "must counters" drops too low by cutting both Goyf and Survival, it might be that 12 lords plus the discard is enough to punch through spells (NO) when you need to though. I'm not such a huge fan of the card but maybe Staff of Domination has a place somewhere between the board and main.Quote:
Originally Posted by Di
I think Prowess is definitely worth testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawon
I've always wanted to make guys like the Elvish Vanguard and Titania's Chosen work. My old casual elf deck was those guys and just more elves to permanently grow them. Hm... gives me some thoughts!
Vanguard requires you to play elves in order to pump him. He also must be played before said elves. If you are committing elves to the board in vast numbers you are better off pumping all of them rather than one with a target on it's head saying 'Swords ME' or 'Block ME'.
I'm well aware of Wirewood Herald's potential and nifty abilities; prior to designing the current Elf Survival build my precurser was the Crystalline Elves deck (there's a slight history in the opening post on this), so I'm experienced in playing with the card. I cannot deny its usefulness in fighting sweepers, stalling blockers, synergy with Cabal Therapy, and essential free damage should the opponent not want to block and give me a Sylvan Messenger or lord.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuma
However, Herald doesn't fit the playstyle of the deck, not to mention his weakness on its own. The design of this deck is to be very aggressive and be able to rush out. The main reason I'm shifting the design of TEES is because I think I may have had a flawed theory on building the deck in the first place, and it's taken me until recently seeing the success of other tribal decks to realize this. When I had initially built the deck it was a standard Elf Aggro list, but I noticed the potential brokenness it had with Anger involved, and that put the deck's design in a 180 degree turn. And, come nearly a year later, I've come to realize the deck's weaknesses were directly correlated with that engine. Basically, SotF can't just be thrown in a deck; it needs to be built around it. Because of this, the deck lost a lot of speed and aggressiveness, which is an inherant problem because we're A.) a creature-based deck and B.) a pure aggro deck. Removing the SotF engine and its affiliated cards (To be exact it was 4 Survival, 1 Anger, 1 Squee, 1 Wren's Run Packmaster, 1 Viridian Zealot, and 3-4 Tarmogoyf) allows the deck to have a primary synergistic focus and be able to implement that strategy a lot better, which is, given the nature of this tribe, balls-to-the-wall aggro. And it's gotten a lot better because of this.
That said, Herald really doesn't fit. Again, I won't argue for its usefulness, but it doesn't do a good job at fulfilling the role that we need our slots to do. There is already a resoundingly high number of weak creatures in the deck (17, nearly 1/3 of the deck) and adding more that have a situational ability can potentially be disasterous getting stuck with weak creatures over stronger ones, as stronger creatures would need to be cut in favor of Herald. The deck needs to be able to unconditionally be able to play out everything it can and beat the hell out of the opponent. Playing a 1G 1/1 that doesn't provide any immediate benefits really doesn't help the strategy of the deck, sadly, given how good of an ability it has.
Both weren't included for lack of space. Eyeblight's Ending is awesome, really, but there's certain criteria we need to keep in order to preserve the consistency of the deck (X lords, X accelerants, X lands etc). If it were possible for me to fit it then I'd like to, however, I'm confident enough against decks winning with creatures that the deck is more than capable of just flat out running through them, or at least forestwalking through.Quote:
Originally Posted by lorddotm
Thoughtseize is something i've been trying to fit in since I've been testing this approach but I can't find the space. However, I'm wary regardless because I'm trying to keep the elf count as high as I can to abuse Sylvan Messenger while still being able to keep all the other required non-elf components intact.
That's an interesting card, and I've never seen it prior to this mentioning. However, if there's going to be any anti-sweeper cards played, the most likely of them is either Caller of the Claw or Patriarch's Bidding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawon
The excess mana isn't necessarily true at all. If you cast Sylvan Messenger, you're almost always going to want to have mana open to cast out all the cards you draw, especially if you're able to keep chaining them. I've had plenty of games that feature a turn 2 Priest or Archdruid into turn 3 Symbiote and Messenger and the ability to play Messenger twice and then run out 3-4 lords at the same time. Having excessive mana is precious in this deck because it's incredibly mana hungry once it gets the draw engine going.Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshine
Also, I've actually found the number of must counters to stay close, if not go up in this build. Previously, there were the following based on my last list:
4 SotF
4 Natural Order
11 lords
3 Tarmogoyf (maybe Wren's Run Vanquisher, or Sylvan Messenger for some)
4 Priest of Titania (occasionally. People don't like this getting a chance to tap on turn 3, so it has a target on its head)
That's 26. However, some builds had both Goyf and Messenger, or Vanquisher too, so I'll just bump it to 28 for average's sake.
This list has:
4 Natural Order
12 lords
4 Sylvan Messenger
3 Wirewood Symbiote (occasional. If Messenger has already resolved, yes. If they're in need of removal, probably)
4 Priest of Titania (occasional, see above)
27, but because Symbiote is also occasional, I'll put it down to 25. However, it has 4 Cabal Therapy, which can hit multiple counters (and removal as well) , so factoring that in, there's a higher number of bombs in the new list. Although I don't really place any measure in the comparison of the number of bombs against control decks, but rather the ability to resolve them, which the Therapy version has a much higher chance of doing.
I would be more happy than you can imagine if we fit patriarch's bidding in here. I'm going to test the shit out of that card.
I don't think you have access to 5 mana right after a sweeper. Bidding is only good if you choose who and when it dies.
Oversold Cemetery would be another option, as it constantly provides you elf cards from your gy, but it may be too slow.
hmm, interesting, I will surely test this build out ...
One point i made earlier is that with the new lord, i often got a large amount of mana but no real 'dumps' to put it into (i.e. when in topdecking mode with survival in play, you can only play 1 or 2 creatures per turn) whereas in this build it is possible to go really nuts with the messengers ...
since you've cut all sorts of 'utility' critters, i guess you have to use the discard to preventively remove these cards?
Any sideboard information?
There is a rather large tourney at the 20th of september. Obviously I want to play elfs, i'm just wondering about following matchups:
- merfolk (gonne be a lot of those)
- surviving bant
- combo
I guess the first two should be manageable? did the take out of survival improve those matchups?
Thanks!
Check it out guys - our own Planeswalker!
Nissa Revane
2GG
+1: Search your library for a card named Nissa's Chosen and put it onto the battlefield. Then shuffle your library.
+1: Gain 2 life for each Elf you control.
-7: Search your library for any number of Elf creature cards and put them into the battlefield. Then shuffle your library.
Starts with 2 Loyalty.
Also:
Nissa's Chosen
GG
Elf Warrior
If Nissa's Chosen would be put into a graveyard from the battlefield, put it on the bottom of its owner's library instead.
2/3
Its not enough for legacy but I would like to enjoy playing her in extended and t2?
That seems awefull. Now I'm not discarding any ideas before testing it, but this combo eats up 5 slots in an already pretty tight list, 4 of which do really nothing for the deck (I mean a 2/3 for 2, I'd rather play a Goyf) and the plainwalker takes up 5 activations before you can use her ultimate.
Which means you can activate her ultimate at turn 8 as soonest (7 if you play a list with ESG's), at that time you should have already won. Besides, costing 4 puts her on the same cmc as Sylvan Messenger and Natural Order, hell I don't think she would even make the cut if she costs 3.
Then there is the Loyaly of 2, which means the dies to almost any decent burn spell in the game. It's a cute card, very nice for casual games (or even standard), but way too slow and weak for competive Legacy.