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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
If anything the dci should start cycling older standard blocks. It rewards people who played in those formats, sells old useless packs of weaker blocks, and would act as a control mechanism for standard card prices. It also freshens up standard!
Just think about mountain of cards that instantly become subpar during the transition between formats. This is the main reason why everyone's flocking to legacy in the first place, because they hate seeing their cards rapidly depreciate after two years especially during these times. People would actually have an incentive to keep older set cards... If they spread the use of other cards around, they wouldn't have to worry so much about hyperinflation that results in a few specific cards when the other cards become subpar.
I'd be pretty happy to see some slower magic games with "old cards," playing some shivan dragon, serra angel, or nightmare where they're competitive again instead of being reprinted, like great boxers fighting beyond their prime.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
If you care that much about investing, just do what I did and invest in unopened packs. I still have some these floating around the house. I doubt it will ever go down in price. Hell even the unopened Tempest starters I have will probably be worth something eventually.
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/4104/packofbeta.th.jpg
I would have no complaint at all for all the duals to be in M2011. I'd lose out hard on it, but it would be nice to stop hearing the whining about how expensive they are and my least favorite complaint of how Standard is cheaper to get into than Legacy.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
This isn't the first time card price/availability has been a barrier of entry into the format. This shit has been happening for 15 years. I remember when I first started playing back in Revised and playing Type 1 tournaments and getting completely thrashed every round. I saved every single cent until I could afford duals, drains, and power (I was 12-15 at the time, so that's a lot of lawn mowing). I made it work, and I know plenty of players who don't make a lot of money who are savvy enough to pick up the money cards in spite of their prices.
What is it that you people want? Would any of you donate $1000 to Wizards, needy players, etc. if it meant that this format was more accessible? If my playset of duals were suddenly worth $500 instead of $1,500, I would do anything BUT purchase more Magic cards. The only thing I think which will effectively help to stop the dramatic increase in prices while not totally crashing the secondary market would be to introduce a limited number of proxies for sanctioned play (3-5). You can read an interesting article on this topic by my friend Sam here.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Volt
I own somewhere around 65 dual lands, about half of which are blue. If Underground Seas and the rest were to suddenly drop to $10 each because Wizards decided to reverse their policy and reprint them, I would certainly be very annoyed.
How many of those do you actually use in decks?
I'm really beginning to think that part of the reason for these price spikes is simply because people are hoarding expensive cards just to have them, not to use them. I buy Magic cards to play with them, not to watch their values inflate and deflate.
It's going to be impossible for me, and a lot of other players, to continue playing this game if the prices of lands keep rising.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Exospaciac
How many of those do you actually use in decks?
I'm really beginning to think that part of the reason for these price spikes is simply because people are hoarding expensive cards just to have them, not to use them. I buy Magic cards to play with them, not to watch their values inflate and deflate.
It's going to be impossible for me, and a lot of other players, to continue playing this game if the prices of lands keep rising.
Who really cares if card prices rise as long as they retain their value. Most other tcg's have $100+ cards when new sets release that will end up being worth $5-10 within a year.
Also this idea that prices are driven up by hoarding is a myth. Prices are driven up by stupid people who are willing to pay crazy amounts of money for certain cards. Once someone pays $200 for a tabernacle other people are more willing to pay that and people selling them are going to expect no less. Since the supply is so low on such cards it is very hard for the market to correct itself even though there are more tabernacle's for sale on ebay and other sites than have been in years.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
i ve posted this in the new format topic and i guess it applies as well.
Legacy has ALWAYS been expensive, and now that it's being really popular, let's not forget that it's what everyone whished for, everybody is whining. Legacy is not in danger at all, it just has never been as much popular. Prices are skyrocket high ? Please don't tell me than most of you don't have a decent legacy deck, and i don't see any new comer crying about the prices and if they do well we all felt that at the beginning. Indeed we have all started from somewhere, and none of us had, just after snaping his fingers, a playset of all dual lands in Alpha miscut, missprinted, in korean language foil and signed by Garfield, Obama and Michael Jordan. I remember when i was was youger back in 1995 when i started, most of the cards seemed unaffordable and at that time for a youg guy like me they were, so i dealt with it and played with what i could afford. As we all grew older, we have more resources and one card at a time we can build a decent legacy deck and please quit the BS about legacy's prices being comparable to Vintage P9. The current formats are just fine and if you are that bored just play for fun with your friend. I to be honest never had so much fun when i played MTG with friends like a drinking games with old school cards and crap one's and our own rules. Ideas like turning legacy into an extended II are the WORST idea i ve ever heard. And no your don't have to own 4 duals of every kind 4 tabernacle 4 Imperial recruiter 4 "w/e the staples is" to have fun in magic or even to be competitive. Legacy is just FINE, for exemple we have now like 1 small touney (20 to 40 people and run by gaming shops) per week or every two weeks where i live and damn finally i can play legacy more than once a year ... also Unbanning cards like Entomb, Metal worker, DH is just fine and it contributed to make the metagame even richer which is a GOOD thing for legacy, i mean there are so many decks to play and still new ideas to come. And that where the difference stand between legacy and vintage where there is only one or two valid powered archetype. And damn for legacy sake please stop GOSSIPING AROUND about any single thing. and IF US or "pick up your card" seems too expensive why didn't you buy them like a year ago when they were cheaper ? And stop blaming people who have more then one playset, i mean let's be honnest, far from all of them are speculators, they ve been owing them for years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
andrew77
Who really cares if card prices rise as long as they retain their value. Most other tcg's have $100+ cards when new sets release that will end up being worth $5-10 within a year.
Also this idea that prices are driven up by hoarding is a myth. Prices are driven up by stupid people who are willing to pay crazy amounts of money for certain cards. Once someone pays $200 for a tabernacle other people are more willing to pay that and people selling them are going to expect no less. Since the supply is so low on such cards it is very hard for the market to correct itself even though there are more tabernacle's for sale on ebay and other sites than have been in years.
totally
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Exospaciac
How many of those do you actually use in decks?
I'm really beginning to think that part of the reason for these price spikes is simply because people are hoarding expensive cards just to have them, not to use them. I buy Magic cards to play with them, not to watch their values inflate and deflate.
It's going to be impossible for me, and a lot of other players, to continue playing this game if the prices of lands keep rising.
Please. I own a playset of duals, and part of another playset, mostly so I can have multiple UGx decks built at the same time. I loan decks out a lot. It's a bit of a luxury, but not gluttonous. I don't think I'm the problem.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MattH
What exactly do you think an investment is? If you're investing, you implicitly accept the risk of losing money. Anyone who buys cards with the intention of making a profit has ZERO standing to complain if they lose money on that investment.
You guys are hanging too much on the word 'investment'. All I'm saying, is when I'm spending lots of cash on cards now, it doesn't matter, because I can always get that money back by selling the cards. It's not like buying a car - that actually drops in value. The fact that cards only go up in value simly comforts me if I have to buy a couple of expensive cards. I recently got some P9 pieces - I never would have done that if they would drop in price, that's just wasting money. Now it's not, because I can always sell them for approximately the price I bought them for. So I don't really see a problem.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Doomsday
Also, for the people saying that the differences in player-bases between formats are a myth: The next time you go to a Vintage or Legacy tournament, count up and figure out the percentage of the field made up of young kids. Then do the same at the next T2 tournament you attend. Compare the results
Whenever you look at people playing games of any kind, age isn't a great barometer of maturity. I have played in tournaments regularly since 1996 and have met more people over the age of 17 who whined about various things regarding the game than those under 17; it's not even close, honestly. Sure, there are 12 year olds out there who play and need a good ass-kicking, but there have always been, and will always be, more who are old enough to "know better" but still act like jackasses.
In growing the local community here as TO, I have had many, many more issues with cheating, theft, and general fuckwitted twattery by people in their 20s than people under the age of 17; again, not close. Even at the local FNM, which has a decent amount of people ages 10-14 regularly, they are very rarely a problem.
It's the older people with the sense of entitlement that cause the most problems, regardless of format.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IsThisACatInAHat?
I guess all I can say to that is, you would almost definitely be singing a different tune if they did reprint them and if you didn't, you would be in a very small (but on The Source, clearly very vocal) minority.
Let me start by saying, fuck you for trying to tell me how I would react. You don't even get to claim ignorance here, I TOLD you exactly how I would feel about the price of my collection dropping. So don't go putting words in my mouth.
Quote:
I'm not basing my conjecture on a handful of anecdotes from a small fansite that represents a miniscule percentage of the people who buy MtG, as you are.
So you're basing your claims instead on...what, exactly? A scientific poll? A broad survey? Oh right, nothing at all. Well, that's a sound basis if I ever heard one! The fact is that neither of us know who is in the majority here, your delusions to the contrary.
Quote:
It doesn't sound like any amount of suggestions for articles, books or Wikipedia pages will change your mind, but the truth is that whether or not 99% of people are paying to play, collect or sell, if they buy a card for $50 today and it drops to $5 tomorrow, there will be problems.
Such as what, exactly? Players revolting en masse? Protests outside Hasbro offices? 99% of people who play Magic see their card prices drop all the time. They're called standard and extended players.
Quote:
Deflationary spirals have been linked to most major economic recessions throughout history, including the Great Depression of the 1930s and the one we're coming out of right now. What makes MtG cards so special that fundamental economic principles don't apply to them?
Let's think for a minute about what you're saying. Deflation is a problem when it's widespread across an entire economy. Apparently you don't know this, but Magic cards are not the same as the US or world economy. What would a "magic recession" even look like? You are saying that if dual lands are reprinted, players will stop buying cards? Stop playing in tournaments? Are you mental?
You do realize that Wizards already reserves the right to reprint any card from Masques forward, and over 75% of the cards from before then, at any time, for any reason, in any way, in any quantity, right? And that players, stores, TOs, and collectors are just fine with this? The reserved list only applies to an extremely minor segment of the Magic economy. It is not 1995 anymore and it's only a minority of players and stores and collectors that are even affected by the reserved list, regardless of how they feel.
If you want to talk about the wider Magic economy, you need to admit to yourself that:
1. Most people do not own duals.
2. Most people do not own power.
3. Most STORES do not own these cards.
4. And most importantly, an economy without any kind of reserved list already exists and operates just fine right now, and that economy dwarfs the Eternal economy by at least one and probably 2-3 orders of magnitude.
This is an argument between TWO small minorities: the ones who favor a reprint, and the ones who oppose a reprint, with the vast bulk of Magic players completely unaware of and uninterested in the controversy. Don't pretend like reprints would be some earth-shattering kaboom, bringing on a great depression and nuclear winter, ashes blanketing the ground, obscuring the sun, paving the way for twenty years of darkness and pain. A handful of people will lose a few hundred dollars apiece, a few who made speculative bets will lose their shirt, and most people won't even notice the difference.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IsThisACatInAHat?
I'm not basing my conjecture on a handful of anecdotes from a small fansite that represents a miniscule percentage of the people who buy MtG, as you are. It doesn't sound like any amount of suggestions for articles, books or Wikipedia pages will change your mind, but the truth is that whether or not 99% of people are paying to play, collect or sell, if they buy a card for $50 today and it drops to $5 tomorrow, there will be problems. Deflationary spirals have been linked to most major economic recessions throughout history, including the Great Depression of the 1930s and the one we're coming out of right now. What makes MtG cards so special that fundamental economic principles don't apply to them?
Now apart from a very smug attitude there is something seriously wrong with your statement, that honestly got me quite annoyed, because you are using a very scary real-life phenomenom as an argument against reprints.
DEFLATION! Be scared as hell everyone, because when those magical cards drop in price it is all going downhill. Now obviously, if the price level of cards ever goes down without reprints that looks like a symptome of a dying game. But that is clearly not the case and what you refer is a dropping price, due to reprints.
But that does not cause any of the rest of the economy to go into a deflation and therefore all those really bad things (aka deflationary spiral, rising debt levels, subdued consumer spending and investments, etc.) DO NOT APPLY!
Now whether reprinting is a good idea or not, I do not want to participate in the discussion, since it is obviously out of our hands.Just to make clear where I stand (for the poll guy ;D) I own some duals (8) and a few other staples and would love reprints, since I know that for the majority of my friends the price is a serious barrier to entry.
To sum it up, argue for or against reprints any way you like, also economically, but please do not invoke the ghost of deflation as a scare tactic.
Sincerely yours
Edit: Thank you MattH for agreeing (or me agreeing with you, whatever)
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IsThisACatInAHat?
From what I understand, more people left the game in disgust after Chronicles than at any other point in its history.
While I'm not disagreeing with IsThisACatInAHat? point of view, this particular fact I'm pretty sure is wrong.
Saga Block was so broken and sales were so terrible that Wizards R&D was pulled into Hasbro Corporate offices and yelled at. The knee jerk reaction was the complete fail entailed in Mercedian Masques block. Pretty sure that if the entire Wizards R&D department was yelled at by Hasbro Corporate for Saga block, that was when they had the largest exodus of players away from the game due to disgust of the power level.
For reference:
4 Mind Over Matter
3 Stroke of Genius
4 Voltaic Key
3 Scroll Racks
2 Mox Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mana Vault
2 Meditate
4 Power Sink
4 Time Spiral
4 Windfall
2 Intuition
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Tolarian Academy
12 Island
This shit was legal in STANDARD!
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
majikal
There will come a point in the future where no matter how much some collectibles expert tells you your cards are probably worth, you will have trouble finding a buyer, let alone anyone to play against.
I agree with pretty much everything majikal's said and wanted to highlight this very important point.
EDIT: Oh, and MattH and Andrew are pretty much spot on in their assessments as well. WotC couldn't care less about how hard they buttfuck Eternal players because, let's face it, we make up a pretty small minority of the people who purchase their cards. If they think reprinting duals or FOWs or even P9 will increase sales and interest in the game, then they'll reprint them, secondary market values be damned.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
freakish777
and who were the majority of players that left ? low level or casual players would be my guess. I know a shit ton of the same who left because of having to play against UB faeries for fucking two years straight. I'd much rather play or play against the deck listed above than have to deal with flying shrouded counter nonsense ever again. I'd give anything to play in a standard environment with saga power level cards.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Matt Blackburn
and who were the majority of players that left ? low level or casual players would be my guess. I know a shit ton of the same who left because of having to play against UB faeries for fucking two years straight. I'd much rather play or play against the deck listed above than have to deal with flying shrouded counter nonsense ever again. I'd give anything to play in a standard environment with saga power level cards.
That's cute and all, but freakish777 is essentially correct. The two biggest losses in customers and tournament-level players that I can remember stemmed from Urza's Block and unchecked Affinity. Fae may not of been fun to play against over and over, but it was hardly the disaster like those two particular instances were.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Matt Blackburn
and who were the majority of players that left ? low level or casual players would be my guess. I know a shit ton of the same who left because of having to play against UB faeries for fucking two years straight. I'd much rather play or play against the deck listed above than have to deal with flying shrouded counter nonsense ever again. I'd give anything to play in a standard environment with saga power level cards.
In case you're somehow unaware, low level and casual players account for the majority of Wizards' customer base. And no, you really wouldn't have wanted to play in a format where as the saying goes:
The early game is the coin flip.
The mid-game is deciding your mulligans.
The late game is turn 1.
Furthermore, keep in mind that the old Legends rule was "Your opponent has their Tolarian Academy out? They get to keep it forever and ever, your's is useless."
Having 4 Tolarian Academy in your deck and having turn 1s such as:
Academy
Mox Diamond
Island
Mana Vault
Windfall
or
Lotus Petal
Mana Vault
Voltaic Key
Academy
Time Spiral
is absurd. Keep in mind you went from a completely interactive format with Mirage Block/Tempest Block/5th to a completely non-interactive turn 1 combo format with Mirage Block rotating out for Saga Block.
There's a gigantic difference in power level between Tolarian Academy and Bitterblossom. Case in point, one was never banned in any format. The other was banned or restricted in every non-limited format.
If you still think this format would have been exciting, I'm guessing you're also the type of player that thinks that Mind's Desire shouldn't have been pre-emptively restricted in Vintage...
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
freakish777
I played Spiral Blue during that era, after Tolarian Academy and Windfall got the first axe, the deck persisted with Dream Halls engine. I got to play the deck in a tournery once before Time Spiral got axed also. I did not quit soon after, I kept the entire deck up to now for nostalgia. Because of my anger with WotC, I decided to play Hatred deck instead. The following tourney, I did manage to beat a weaker offshoot of Mind Over Matter deck which ran Show and Tell. I also remember a fat opponent playing a CIPT land on his first turn. Which on my second turn, I dropped City of Traitors, attacked with Blood Pet then Ritual to Hatred. LOL!
Those were the fucking good old days!
edit: my Tempest Blood Pets look more pimp than 7th ed. in that tag.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Artowis
That's cute and all, but freakish777 is essentially correct. The two biggest losses in customers and tournament-level players that I can remember stemmed from Urza's Block and unchecked Affinity. Fae may not of been fun to play against over and over, but it was hardly the disaster like those two particular instances were.
thats cute and all, but I wasnt disagreeing with him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
freakish777
In case you're somehow unaware, low level and casual players account for the majority of Wizards' customer base. And no, you really wouldn't have wanted to play in a format where as the saying goes.
no, thanks, I know exactly who their largest customer base is. the only difference is that the saga block deck was a turn 1-2 combo kill and lorwyn block faeries is like a turn 6, 7, 8, etc control kill. thereby simply giving those same low level casual players the illusion that they still had a chance to win and let them play around a little.
bit ballsy assuming what kind of format I would prefer to play in or guessing what type of player I am. I would rather play fast games than watch some scrub go to time a third round in a row as he tries to hopelessly beat ub fearies with mono G treefolk. Im all for indepth games, but I also know when to just scoop. pride gets in the way too much and I dont have the patience to start a tournament at 8pm and have it go well beyond 2am, because some douchebag doesnt know when to quit.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Matt Blackburn
no, thanks, I know exactly who their largest customer base is. the only difference is that the saga block deck was a turn 1-2 combo kill and lorwyn block faeries is like a turn 6, 7, 8, etc control kill. thereby simply giving those same low level casual players the illusion that they still had a chance to win and let them play around a little.
The illusion is all that matters. Hardcore players will adapt because they love the game more than anything. Casual players are the ones that tend to quit. So long as casual players are happy, Wizards is happy.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
evilgorrilaz
The illusion is all that matters.
Correct.
@Matt. My assumption is that you're actually a good player and in it for the prizes. Maximizing your payout means you need to not only maximize your percentage chance to win each match, but also increase the number of opponents (so that the amount being paid into the prize pool is higher). Lower tournament turn-out (because the illusion of "winnability" is gone) decreases tournament payout. Incidently, at the top tables in a Faerie Standard Metagame, while luck is still huge (who got the Ancestral Vision + Bitterblossom hand + won the coinflip) there's more luck involved in the Academy Standard match (who won the coinflip and had Academy).
If you were as good as Gary Kasparov at chess, and you played for money in Central Park, it would be to your benefit to make sub-optimal moves to give your opponent the illusion that they can win. Obviously, you wouldn't want to make sub-optimal plays in Magic, since there is luck involved (and you don't want to scoop it up to their topdeck) but giving the opponent to illusion of being able to win because you're taking 1 every upkeep, playing with a bunch of 1/1s and not killing them until turn 8 makes sure that they keep putting money into your pocket as opposed to them quitting because you just keep winning on turn 1 or 2 after making 20 mana and drawing 20 cards.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nocco
I agree with pretty much everything majikal's said and wanted to highlight this very important point.
EDIT: Oh, and MattH and Andrew are pretty much spot on in their assessments as well. WotC couldn't care less about how hard they buttfuck Eternal players because, let's face it, we make up a pretty small minority of the people who purchase their cards. If they think reprinting duals or FOWs or even P9 will increase sales and interest in the game, then they'll reprint them, secondary market values be damned.
I respectfully disagree. Eternal staples are the flagship representatives of the entire game. Ask any magic player who knows anything what the p9 are, and I'd bet my home that they would have heard of them, with an added dash of mystique. Reprinting eternal staples, and I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with that right now for reasons I'll get to later, is like putting up a neon sign denoting that every single player out there is fair game. Reprinting a mox, looked at in a vacuum, is unlikely to harm more players than Standard manabase costs going up to $500 for viable decks, but you can be sure that the fallout will be a lot greater for the former.
On availability, I don't think this is a huge issue. Most legacy staples are now available in what I believe to be larger quantities since prices have risen recently, but they've always been available online even before the recent spikes in prices. The issue isn't really one of availability, it is one of price and the accessibility that is denied as a result of price. That immediately says that any solution that wants to introduce more new players to eternal formats needs to address the price issue, not necessarily that of availability, even though economics links both together. Thus, any solution that creates new quantities of staples but which does not reduce the prices of those cards is likely to do very little or nothing but increase the number of ways in which the doors are shut in players' faces. That basically means that if wotc wants to solve this issue, they likely have to use non-foil, white bordered reprints in varying quantities depending on the cards in question.
That basically leads to the next issue as a result of reprinting. Good? Bad? My opinion is that everyone needs to understand that magic is popular and alive today BOTH because of the collectibility of the cards as well as the playability of the game. Not just the playability. Not just the card values and collectibility. Speaking solely from a player's point of view and taking the interests of that side alone isn't fair, and speaking solely from a collector's/speculator's/dealer's point of view is basically asking for a golden handshake where none exists. Scrapping the reserve list is one thing, reprinting eternal staples and signalling that basically every card is possibly up for reprinting is another. I have stated before that my opinion is that a corporation's first and foremost duty is to create value for its shareholders (Hasbro is public), which is intrinsically tied with its bottom line, but the possible ramifications of reprinting staples are huge. It isn't just about being Chronicles mk II. Chronicles created chaos despite tanking values that were high due to scarcity and collectibility (like the LG legends). Reprinting staples goes far beyond that -- it'd basically be like what would have happened if top-tier cards of those days like Juzam or the Moxen were reprinted in Chronicles, with the possibility of future reprinting very real. Wotc (and Hasbro) have no legal culpability if they abolish and violate their gentleman's agreement, but the loss of goodwill and confidence could be huge. Look at the issues that Toyota is facing due to its sudden drop in manufacturing quality -- its seeming violation of the promise of absolute, top-of-the-line safety excellence is creating a lot more intangible issues that go beyond the costs involved with recalling a number of cars and suspending some factory work. The same risks apply for wotc. They WILL increase sales by reprinting staples, but as long as they state that they are reprinting said staples for the sake of increased availability and the addressing of price issues, a slew of issues might arise that make the costs higher than the benefits.
Before I get slammed for not caring about the health of the format, I do. I would like to see new players taking up legacy and vintage. I just think that as most people seem to be in favour of reprints, there are risks involved. It isn't just about making a few reprints and then we get a Carebears and rainbows (and Tarmogoyfs, since that bastard is everywhere) kind of scenario. I'm also going to add in the caveat that I don't mind losing card value (a lot of what I own aren't normal cards anyway), and that I'm not in the game to make money. I think that something needs to be done to address price levels and accessibility, but abolishing the reserved list, changing the unwritten reprint policy to allow all cards to be potentially reprinted, and then reprinting staples is dangerous. Wizards can easily take baby steps by reprinting portal or starter cards first, as well as seriously exploring the printing of sanctioned proxies (only legal in eternal), with their usage capped to a small number in each eternal deck. No point betting the future of the game on an issue which might be solved with less drastic measures.
On a sidenote, I've also read certain statements (not necessarily just here but on salvation as well), that it's fine if people who are in the game to make a profit are burned, and that speculators are basically evil. What? Without having to point out that it sounds incredibly bitter. If someone has the correct knowledge and information access, and is willing to spend time making arbitrage or speculative profits while taking on the risks involved (eg price changes that cause losses), fine with me. They provide liquidity to the market and help dealers to survive. It isn't the same situation as with Standard and Extended players who constantly endure paper losses due to rotation, as the aims of those segments are different anyway. While it isn't conclusive evidence, a walk down to salvation will also show that plenty of the people who feel that speculators can be burnt are creating threads identifying possible sleepers and buying playsets of cards like Eye of Ugin "in case they rise". Meh.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Please, stop saying that starter/portal should be reprinted, no they shouldn't ever, their scarcity is is far from being the main issue here or an issue at all. I tend to agree the rest though.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Occam
I respectfully disagree.
With what exactly? Because I'm positive that us Eternal players aren't who WotC is catering to. We don't buy every single from the new set to put in our T2 decks. We don't crack boxes upon boxes looking for a shiny mythic to put in our Treefolk Kraken deck. We buy maybe 5 cards from a new set if they're Legacy playable. Casual players and, to a lesser extent, Standark players are who WotC mainly cares about pleasing (*COUGH*Mythic Rares*COUGH*).
Although I do believe that you bring up a good point with the whole Toyota customer backlash/loss of faith point. If WotC does infact do something like FTV: P9, the customer backlash and loss of faith will indeed be pretty big, but I don't think it will be that big of a deal, seeing as the people who it affects most are mostly a minority. Kitchen table players could care less about this shit.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
You don't get it, do you? If they reprinted the Power 9, in a box set or as reprints or something. THE ENTIRE SYSTEM WOULD COLLAPSE. Magic is not just a card game: if it were, you would be able to buy a box and see every card represented there, like Munchkin or Fluxx or Guillotine. Instead, it's a collectible card game. Without scarcity, there's really no collectibility, and the value of every single magic card-not just the P9-would tank. Because it would show that wizards could just print whatever the hell they want, making previous gradations of rarity worthless.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ryO!
Please, stop saying that starter/portal should be reprinted, no they shouldn't ever, their scarcity is is far from being the main issue here or an issue at all. I tend to agree the rest though.
Scarcity is the main reason starter and portal are expensive. There is absolutely no reason why fringe legacy cards like imperial recruiter, grim tutor et al are expensive if not for scarcity -- it sure as anything isn't playability. What, in your eyes, is the main issue then?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nocco
With what exactly? Because I'm positive that us Eternal players aren't who WotC is catering to. We don't buy every single from the new set to put in our T2 decks. We don't crack boxes upon boxes looking for a shiny mythic to put in our Treefolk Kraken deck. We buy maybe 5 cards from a new set if they're Legacy playable. Casual players and, to a lesser extent, Standark players are who WotC mainly cares about pleasing (*COUGH*Mythic Rares*COUGH*).
Although I do believe that you bring up a good point with the whole Toyota customer backlash/loss of faith point. If WotC does infact do something like FTV: P9, the customer backlash and loss of faith will indeed be pretty big, but I don't think it will be that big of a deal, seeing as the people who it affects most are mostly a minority. Kitchen table players could care less about this shit.
I'm not disagreeing that Wizards probably values the Standard and Extended community more. I'm disagreeing with what you said about Wizards screwing eternal over, because as far as reprints go, eternal staples are exactly the cards that Wizards cannot afford to willfully reprint. It isn't that Wizards treats eternal positively by choice (even though there have been cards designed FOR eternal in recent sets), but that Wizards may not be able to treat eternal badly in this particular area.
I believe that a FTV: P9 is exactly the kind of solution that is like watching a chicken getting slaughtered at a circus. No fun for you, no fun for the butcher, and certainly no fun for the chicken. If they were to follow the previous FTV installments, regardless of what the MSRP is, you better believe that the prices will be astronomical anyway, and unless you believe that a lack of cards is the issue for P9 instead of price, introducing foil P9 isn't going to solve anything but will instead cause said lack of faith and piss the Standard community off further.
Kitchen table players aren't really the issue here then. They don't really care if cards are reprinted, and they don't really care about being able to play sanctioned eternal either. It works both ways. Plus, plenty of casual players have eternal staples. They just don't play eternal constructed.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Occam
Scarcity is the main reason starter and portal are expensive. There is absolutely no reason why fringe legacy cards like imperial recruiter, grim tutor et al are expensive if not for scarcity -- it sure as anything isn't playability. What, in your eyes, is the main issue then?
As it s a collectible game, there are no reason to print those scarce promotional sets again. Not everyone can afford them? Seriously i don't care and no one should. Those are extremly low printed cards (compared to the rest of the other sets) and none of those is broken enough that you need them in ever single deck. Imperial is played in only one deck, Loyal Retainers is only needed *1 in one deck, grim tutor isn't even played, ravages of war is just a fancy thing in your deck and that goes for every cards of those extensions. So my main issue about those sets is : there is no issue at all so it is pointless & irrelevant to wish for their reprint. If i follow your statement they also should reprint Juzam and all those really expensive, scarce but yet not that playbable cards.
The main problem is most of the people here seems to have played legacy for ages, and yet realise just now that Underground sea or Mox diamond are good cards so they have to buy them for the "nowadays" price and not the "for ages" one.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Every perspective on this issue has pretty much been covered so far in this thread so I won't waste space and reiterate what's already written here other than say that I would fully support reprinting of rare sought after cards in a severely limited run. I think we can all agree that the FTV series is kind of a joke and despite some saying it was impossible for them to pick up (at retail), I really don't give a shit about that.
What I would like to see would be a good selection of playable and nostalgic cards printed non-foil (probably new frame) released only to B&M stores with a requirement that people only get say 1 pack per DCI #. This get a bit tricky as there are all sorts of shifty stores out there and there is likely to be some of these that make it onto the secondary market at a significant increase in price. It might be more realistic to release the set in the old 75 card tourney packs so you at least get a good selection from the set. There should be more than four tiers of rarity for these but obviously with all cards being "playable" you should never feel like you got shafted.
In summary:
Awesome old cards
Wide variety of rarities
Available in super limited amount (1 pack per interested party on average - maybe as prize support for a 1 time worldwide tourney)
B&M stores only to control distribution (sorry TOs and online behemoths)
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ryO!
As it s a collectible game, there are no reason to print those scarce promotional sets again. Not everyone can afford them? Seriously i don't care and no one should. Those are extremly low printed cards (compared to the rest of the other sets) and none of those is broken enough that you need them in ever single deck. Imperial is played in only one deck, Loyal Retainers is only needed *1 in one deck, grim tutor isn't even played, ravages of war is just a fancy thing in your deck and that goes for every cards of those extensions. So my main issue about those sets is : there is no issue at all so it is pointless & irrelevant to wish for their reprint. If i follow your statement they also should reprint Juzam and all those really expensive, scarce but yet not that playbable cards.
The main problem is most of the people here seems to have played legacy for ages, and yet realise just now that Underground sea or Mox diamond are good cards so they have to buy them for the "nowadays" price and not the "for ages" one.
The point that is being made here is that certain steps may need to be taken to prevent legacy from becoming the second coming of vintage. That I agree with. What I didn't agree with is that if step 1 is legacy being in danger of becoming Vintage, step 2 should be to reprint everything. Reprinting playables that are scarce is a partial solution that doesn't circumvent promises made to the playerbase and will not evoke the outcry and loss of faith that outright reprinting of staples would.
As for your point that the cards from portal and starter aren't widely played, that was partially the point. Enabling decks that play these to be formed at more efficient costs isn't a panacea, but any help is better than none. And no, Juzam isn't playable at all in legacy. The SCD thread for it pretty much covered the bases there.
The main problem isn't that U Sea or Mox Diamond have only recently been discovered. It is that a self-fulfilling prophecy is being perpetuated when people are seeing certain inflated/speculatory prices being paid, and then deciding that current prices are lower than the inflated prices, pushing prices up until they hit the inflated price level, at which point the entire cycle can start again at higher prices. Excessive doomsaying on forums only fuels that fire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
android
In summary:
Awesome old cards
Wide variety of rarities
Available in super limited amount (1 pack per interested party on average - maybe as prize support for a 1 time worldwide tourney)
B&M stores only to control distribution (sorry TOs and online behemoths)
I freaking hope not!
/End hyprocrisy
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Matt Blackburn
thats cute and all, but I wasnt disagreeing with him.
no, thanks, I know exactly who their largest customer base is. the only difference is that the saga block deck was a turn 1-2 combo kill and lorwyn block faeries is like a turn 6, 7, 8, etc control kill. thereby simply giving those same low level casual players the illusion that they still had a chance to win and let them play around a little.
It's kind of irrelevant to talk about goldifsh turns or whatever, because we're not talking about brokenness but rather likeability. People will hate what they hate, and you're not going to convince a quitting Magic player to come back by pointing out how fair the dominant deck du jour is.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Occam
I'm not disagreeing that Wizards probably values the Standard and Extended community more.
For the record, there isn't really an "Extended community"; people who play Extended are almost exclusively PTQ players, and they'll play whatever is in season at the time.
Regarding talk of WotC pandering to "casual" players and the like: what would YOU do in their place? Would you dedicate more time and effort to a "community" that, overall, isn't very large and doesn't contribute to your bottom line in any direct manner, aside from the 2 GPs every 2 years you run for that format? A company can't please everyone with their product, but they can target their largest potential audience and please them and be successful in doing so.
Of course, maybe I am just wrong.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Occam
I freaking hope not!
All I'm saying is don't have everyone who opens a super pack get an underground sea. That would be absurd. I think the cards should be significantly shorter print runs than the originals, thus rarer. It should be like a treasure hunt but not such an impossible treasure hunt that you come away from it feeling like you got nothing. You would open some awesome cards but the set should be big enough and with enough rarities that it would be like 1/10,000 that you would get something like a sea. That should keep all the fearmongers quiet as it should ensure the stability of the secondary market but also introduce some high priced cards into it. I don't know what the big problem is. Everyone likes to whine alot I guess.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I'm interested in getting a Tabernacle (English, not HP), but I'm not in a huge rush to get it. Any time in the next six months or so would be fine. Anyone got recommendations on how to do it? I suspect that the price is only going to go up and I should just buy the damn thing and get it over with before things get worse. Is that a reasonable assumption or is there any reason I should wait?
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
To be honest it depends on you. Ask yourself these questions.
1. Do you plan to keep it for a long time and not re-sell it after some large tournament like a Star City 5k or something?
2. Do you care how fast you get one?
3. Is $300 a drop in the bucket to you (as in not even close to a full paycheck)?
4. Do you have the rest of the cards for 43 lands?
If you said Yes to most of these I would buy one now. Otherwise, I would wait until some of these recent Legacy tournaments are done. It should drop some since it's such a fringe card, but I wouldn't expect it too much. It's high demand right now especially given the high placings the deck has had lately.
I'd try for the rare deal on Ebay personally. The web stores I have noticed are trying to squeeze what they can out of the stock they have since it's not an easily replaced card. Shop around, you should be able to beat most of the online stores prices by quite a bit if you hunt.
I assume you want it for 43 lands. I only asked about the rest of the deck because it's one expensive deck and does have some glaring weaknesses. I play it quite a bit. People luckily don't board much for it, but if it keeps winning these tournies, people will figure it out and it's not too hard to hate on. I'd only buy one if I already owned all the duals and fetches, those are worth more in the long run and will go up in price faster I'd warrant.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Part of me is wishing Wizards would at least make some sort of announcement along these lines - or even make an announcement detailing an upcoming product, that, in itself would answer our questions.
But...this ain't a Wizards forum.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Just sharing some personal experiences buying cards for U/B Reanimator. Prices are after shipping.
4x Underground Sea $220 (55 each)
4x Entomb $80 (20 each)
4x Thoughtseize $40 (10 each)
4x Polluted Delta $80 (20 each)
4x Force of Will $100 (25 each)
4x Mystical Tutor $16 (4 each)
Forces, Seas, Entombs, AND Thoughtseizes were less than I thought they'd be. Mysticals and Deltas hurt, however. All in all, these prices don't seem that painful compared to what people are saying they're like here. You can still hunt for deals and be patient! That is $500 or so, but it's the majority of a deck, and mostly all upscale cards that retain value. Cards that are solid investments are going to be expensive, it only makes sense.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
FWIW, Richard Garfield has some thoughts about card prices:
http://www.thestarkingtonpost.com/ar...50_is_Too_Much
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MattH
What the hell does he know, he's not some kind of genius mathematician who invented the game... oh... wut? He did?
Seriously, he is – of course – right on the money (no pun intended). For the longest time, $20 was the typical chase rare price and that seems reasonable.
Thanks for the link. It will be interesting to see this documentary in full.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MMogg
For the longest time, $20 was the typical chase rare price and that seems reasonable.
I was thinking this too. I started around 1999 and played through 2003, and I always remembered the in-print Standard chase cards being $18-22. The hype card of a particular season would be high, and then the other played rares would be in the $5-15ish range; even Lorowyn/Shards standard more or less followed this formula- Cryptic, Reflecting Pool, Bitterblossem, then a slightly lower tier of like Figure of Destiny, Thoughtseize, Planeswalkers, etc and then filler rares that saw play, like the filter lands, and whatever else.
Pre-Mythic Rares and with the exception of Tarmogoyf, was anything really breaking this trend that drastically?
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I remember Mutavault, Bitterblossom, and Reflecting Pool were fairly bad. I don't quite remember where they leveled off at, but they weren't cheap. I remember a lot of bitching about them.
It's nice to see Garfield himself agree with the players though.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
from Cairo
Pre-Mythic Rares and with the exception of Tarmogoyf, was anything really breaking this trend that drastically?
I blame the massive influx of ex-Yugioh players into the scene who are used to paying outrageous prices for their cards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dahcmai
I remember Mutavault, Bitterblossom, and Reflecting Pool were fairly bad. I don't quite remember where they leveled off at, but they weren't cheap. I remember a lot of bitching about them.
Mutavault was the only one that got stupidly expensive, and even it topped at about $40. Everything else stayed around $30 or under.
Standard cards aren't really so bad right now. The only real offender is Jace, and even he has leveled off around $45 from what I'm seeing on MOTL. The biggest problem is presale prices - the speculators drive the market into a frenzy initially, but it always levels off a week or two after release.
