Thats unfortunate because I love Rucku's take with Survival. I am actually trying to save up to get survivals and NOrders.
Do you still play this deck online?
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Thats unfortunate because I love Rucku's take with Survival. I am actually trying to save up to get survivals and NOrders.
Do you still play this deck online?
Not anymore - I've ran out of time to play online, so I'm a weekend warrior. I've started assembling other lists to play for tournaments, and testing out an aggressive version of UG Madness.
I still hold that the list I last posted is one of the better and consistent lists for hybrid Glimpse/Survival elves. Anger is very beneficial for the deck to be able to combat D.o.B. conditions (dead on board), and to give a slow roll against decks with mass removal.
Hey Rukus great thread. I have a couple of questions.
I am trying to do a one land combo elves with land grants lotus petal and elvish spirt guide. Have you tried this build? Also what do you think about the inclusions of Copperhorn Scout and Genesis Wave? I have fallen in love wth Genesis Wave as it just lets me fill the board with permanents so fast.
Hey, I'm looking for some legacy deck and combo elves seems like what im looking for. But I wasn't playing for more than 4 months, so I don't have overview as I had before. Do you think its good or bad choice for today's metagame? And can somebody write here matchup analysis please? Just good, even and bad matchups. It could be great :).
Amen.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
Someone needs to start throwing Merfolk at them.
My brother is putting together an elf combo deck. Keep in mind he's very stubborn and most likely won't take any advice whatsoever, he loves making his own 70 card homebrews out of decks and saying they're good...
Anyway, I suggested the following list to him. He, of course, says it's junk. You guys actually play the deck, so I'm wondering how I did with the list. Keep in mind I've only glazed over the thread and threw a MD together. No SB. I don't play this deck, I won't pretend I know how to build a board for it.
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Joraga Warcaller
3 Elvish Visionary
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Vitalize
2 Concordant Crossroads
2 Grapeshot
14 Forest
Vitalize I figured would be ridiculous in a deck like this, feel free to tell me if I'm wrong on that. The rest of them I'm pretty sure some of you have tested before. Obviously the deck wants to go nuts into an all out attack, with Grapeshot as a backup.
On a side note, his justification for running Tangleroot is that it does the same job as Vitalize, Ranger, and Symbiote in the same card...
I don't even play this deck, and I want to slap him silly.
This looks to me like a list that might be able to abuse Genesis Wave, dont you guys think? It powers out elves insanely fast with ESG, Crossroads, archdruid titania, so I think it might work. What do you guys think?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Stewart
Yo dudes, went 4-2-1 yesterday at the Star City Games Open in Boston. (Should have been 5-1-1 gah!). Will post tournament report soon, but the general gist of it is that ELVES SMOKES SURVIVAL EVERY FUCKING TIME and survival is everywhere. So THAT'S awesome!!!
Star City Games open Nov 7th:
Round 1: Smoke GW survival. Didn't even get to see which survival he was playing cause I beat him so fast
1-0
Round 2: Beat Ichorid. I am starting to come to the conclusion that we don't need GY hate in SB cause we can just outrun Ichorid every time.
2-0
Round 3: BARELY lose to Sneak attack/reanimator. Kid ended up placing 5th. Lost by a turn, and it was an insane turn he pulled to win. He told me had never been so nervous in a match against elves.
2-1
Round 3: Tie goblins, game 3 we went to time since we both built up decent armies and couldn't get through each other in time. I made a bad play game 1 though and would have won in 2 if I had played this right, so chock this one up to a player mistake.
2-1-1
Round 4: Beat a GW survival that had the triscilion/ooze combo
3-1-1
Round 5: Smoke another survival build, it was either UG or UWG.
4-1-1
Round 6: Lose in 3 games to countertop/painter's stone. Still not sure what to side in against countertop decks (grip or leyline). I usually go with leyline but it's up to some debate. He firespouted me 3 times and I think Fecundity should go up to 4 in the sideboard since this was the only significant problem I ran in to.
End the day at 4-2-1 since I dropped once I knew I was out of top 8
Let me know if you guys would like a decklist, and really think about playing this in tourneys with the popular of survival, I went 3-0 against survival that day, and it wasn't a coincidence.
I'd certainly like to see you post it. Ever since the fall of the great website known as deckcheck.net, I have been wanting to see decklists posted with more frequency on here... unless anyone knows of another site that is almost as great as deckcheck...
It would be nice to see your decklist, or at least what kind of build you're running.Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
Here is the list I ran at the Star City Games open:
4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
6 Forest
4 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wirewood Symbiote
SB:
1 Elvish Champion
2 Fecundity
4 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
4 Tormod's Crypt
The main deck is near perfect for how I like to play Elves, which is go for combo when you see a glimmer of hope that you might be able to pull it off, this build is designed to maximize the number of times that you will actually pull it off in scenarios like this.
The SB needs a bit of work, the Champion is boss, leylines are great for swapping for glimpses and going straight uncounterable aggro against control. Not sure about the rest though..
Can you share how you sideboard vs different matchups? I've been struggling to figure out how to bring in the Grips and Crypts.
Sideboarding is definitely hard with elves combo more than other archetypes, since every card you take out dilutes your strategy. The question always obviously comes to, is the benefit of the cards I'm putting in worth diluting the deck with the cards I am taking out. Here is how I boarded in the Star City Games open:
Against Survival:
Nothing, we can outrun them every time. It's not worth putting in the grips for survival, just combo them.
Against Ichorid:
I boarded in Crypts but I never say them in game 2 or 3. I am beginning to thing these slots can be used for other things. We can outrun Ichorid and Reanimator doesn't really matter anymore. What would we need GY hate against?
Against Goblins:
Added Fecundity for the sweepers I knew he was adding. I unfortunately didn't see them and they would have helped a lot. I think I should have more than 2 in the board. I was debating about putting the grips in for vials but I ended up not doing it because I thought it would be better to just race him. Game 2 I tried to out aggro him when I had a chance at the combo in hand (something I almost never do) and it was the wrong choice. Aggro is strictly a backup plan unless it is a sure thing, and grip would help me out aggro him but not speed the combo up so I think it was a good choice to leave them in the board.
Against Sneak Attack/Show and tell:
This was a touch choice. Game 1 I ran him over but he showed me a lot of counters, game 2 I boarded in leylines for glimpses and go uncounterable aggro, which I think was a good choice. They just keep saving their counters for the glimpses, which arn't in the deck, and they let you summon anything, it's great!
Unfortunately though, I had to mull to 5 to get the leylines and didn't see any lands and I kept the hand since I thought it would be a better chance at drawing a land than landing a leyline after the start of the game. I didn't see any lands the whole game so he solitaired me but I still think it was the right sb choice.
Game 3 I swapped the leylines back out for the glimpses since I thought he would board out all his counters, which he did. This happens frequently if you show leylines to control game 2, you just go with your usual main deck game 3 against a deck with no counters. It sets you up real nice.
Against countertop:
This is always the hardest choice for me. Do we put in leyline or grip? I usually go leyline aggro. Game 2 he showed me the painter's grindstone combo so I had to use grip instead.
Definitely some hard choices, hope that helps though.
Oh and I also put in Fecundity against top since he showed me firespouts
What's the goldfish of this deck?
Combo Elves can conceivably go off turn 2. Turn 3 is very common start up as well. 4 Summoner's Pact make it easy to get the right pieces; just watch out for potential mass/spot removal in case you need to pass the turn.
My goldfish is about 2.8 with this. Out of ten games I say I combo turn 2 two or three times, turn 3 5-6 times, and turn 4+ one to three times
Could we get a discussion of the sideboard for my build going? I think a few changes to sideboarding choices and I would have won both of the rounds I lost. I need help though, since I am having trouble deciding these for myself, especially against Top, namely Grip or Leyline?
I used the following board, and it worked very wellQuote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
4 Choke
4 Tormod's
3 vengevine
2 krosan grip
2 reverent silence
If it needs explanation tell me ;)!
Interesting board! Couple questions:Quote:
Originally Posted by 1maarten1
Advantages of Choke over Leyline?
Applications of Vengevine?
Why no champion?
Why Reverent silence over 2 more grips?
1. I find choke to be a card that is usefull in more matchups then leyline, since choke can also help you lock out your opponent if they try to play something mass removal-ish, like in the Landstill matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
2. I found this to be the #1 card to beat mass removal, it rocked.
3. I never had that much trouble with agro (that ran enough forests to make him viable)
4. Its free :) And it removes ALL, for that random enchantress deck in the meta ;) And it wont get countered by CB probably.
Generally speaking, running Leyline in a deck with 16-18 initial mana sources is a pretty bad idea overall. Counters really aren't the problem cards in the control matchup but rather the combination of sweepers and card advantage. Reverent Silence is obviusly not to lose tempo against counterbalance, albeit somewhat risky in my opinion as Grip still gets the job done and it does nothing against Chalice.
Ya that's a good point about Leyline. I guess the advantage for me against decks that are heavy on counters or top was that if swap them with glimpses you have an uncounterable aggro deck. They HAVE to out aggro you in this case and they can't. It does not help with mass removal though, which has been by far my biggest obstacle to overcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinitium
So I might play the deck in the near future (played it in Vintage) and got some questions:
1. How good is the deck without Glimpse. In Vintage you have another 4 Clamp, but here you have only 4 Glimpse and 3 Lords, which seems like a pretty weak aggro mode.
2. Do you use Pact as a Lord tutor sometimes?
tnx in advance
Hey man,Quote:
Originally Posted by paK0
The glimpses, Regal Force, and lords give you enough card draw/aggro options to make this deck a serious contender in legacy. I really don't know that much about vintage, but I do that adding 4 clamps would make this deck nearly untouchable in legacy. Clamps improve this deck a pretty insane amount.
Also, remember that Warcaller is a lord too so there are 4 lords maindeck, and 1 sideboard (champion)
Hello, new to TheSource. I play mostly legacy, but have few opportunities for tournaments, therefore I do most of my playing on MWS.
My current Elves! Combo deck:
Llnaowar Elves x4
Fyndhorn Elves x4
Birchlore Rangers x4
Nettle Sentinel x4
Heritage Druid x4
Imperious Perfect x4
Quirion Ranger x4
Elvish Visionary x3
Sylvan Messenger x2
Wirewood Symbiote x3
Regal Force x1
Summoner's Pact x3
Glimpse of Nature x4
Grapeshot x1
Forest x15
Sideboard
Vexing Shusher x1
Viridian Shaman x1
Elvish Champion x2
Krosan Grip x2
Tormod's Crypt x3
Autumn's Veil x3
Winter Orb x3
A couple of questions for the forum:
1) What is the best 2nd tutor option? (Weird Harvest, Chord of Calling, Worldly Tutor, or Elvish Harbinger)
2) Is Mirror Entity worth putting in maindeck? I've tried it as a secondary win/con, just to push damage through with 3/3 or better elves attacking in an alpha strike, but I just don't like waiting a turn to pull it off.
3) Burst of Speed...is it worth playtesting so if Grapeshot gets hosed (like with Mindbreak Trap) I can still attack FTW?
Thanks in advance...hope I can get some great info from some more experienced players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
1) There is debate over the best second tutor option, but in my opinion, and I think my build might be pushing the archetype in a new direction, all other tutors are too slow. 4 Pacts is enough, you just have to be prudent about using them when not comboing. I have played this archetype for a long time and see no reason for a second tutor.
2) No. No no no no no. There are surely others who disagree with me on this, but I can say quite confidently that I will smoke any build with mirror entity in it. It's just too slow, it doesn't help you combo, and therefore has no place in this deck. The reason the Archdruids are good is because they help the aggro backup WHILE helping you combo also.
3)No. If you are going to do that then just play concordant crossroads. Also, grapeshot is not the greatest wincon. If you are going to storm tendrils is better in every single way (you will never be able to stormkill for grapeshot without having the mana for tendrils), but above that, Emrakul is even better. He is def the best way to go.
Also, looking at your build, I would highly recommend cutting the messengers and imperious perfects for 3 Archdruids, one more pact, one warcaller, and another symbiote
Speaking of secondary tutor, ruckus has introduced a list that uses Survival of the Fittest as the secondary tutor. He's had success with it on MTGO.
I really wish ruckus has any updates on that deck. I was gonna work on Combo Elves but I have been preoccupied with Quinn.
Ruckus' build is more consistant, but if you know when to mulligan mine will get you a turn 3 goldfish 75% of the time, and a turn 2 just under 20% of the time. Is it worth it for the extra consistency when this build is so much faster?Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Ruckus' build is more consistant, but if you know when to mulligan mine will get you a turn 3 goldfish 75% of the time, and a turn 2 just under 20% of the time. Is it worth it for the extra consistency when this build is so much faster?Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Yes, cause in the real world you don't get to goldfish or hit your glimpse 75% of the time on your opening 6-7, which means another win condition (weird harvest, survival, etc.) is not only a great idea, but is necessary to have a consistent deck. If your Glimpse of Nature gets countered or discarded, your decklist doesn't have much going on. Lord + beats isn't a threat versus a lot of the tier 1 decks. I don't understrand the Archdruid at all, it is extremely slow for the combo and playing 3-4 lords doesn't provide a solid beatdown plan. Survival, Storm, even Zoo and Merfolk will either don't care or have a stronger army. The Pact for Regal Force plan is also no easy task to solve, so I wouldn't call it a second engine.
Thank you for the response!Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
1) A 4th Pact it is.
2) That's what my playtesting showed, Mirror Entity was just a waste. I was distracted by trying so desperately hard to make him work, and losing too many games because of it.
3) Concordant Crossroads wants Elvish Archdruid for mana explosion. At that point, I would NEED to add in Weird Harvest to have a mana sink, and I don't want that many slots dedicated to a secondary win/con.
I will get the 4th Symbiote in there (along with the 4th Pact) dropping the Sylvan Messengers to do that. I'm curious about the Tendrils idea...I haven't tested it yet, but it has some promise, if only for the lower storm count. I just always figured if I could get a 10 storm count, getting a 20 storm count wasn't hard once the Glimpse-train was rolling.
Elvish Visionary...do I need 4?
In the real world merfolk and zoo cannot keep up. I know this because I beat them nearly every time. I have played this deck extensively in tournaments and the only problem that arises is sweepers. It IS an engine, and a much faster, more efficient engine than survival, you just have to get used to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigar
Survival may not care, but that doesn't matter cause I have played survival 5 different rounds in tournaments and never even lost one game. My build smokes them in every single way.
The build beat zoo and merfolk 75% of the time.
Storm is only legitimate concern. ANT's goldfish is slightly faster than mine, but that doesn't help your argument because adding consistency (and only a tiny bit of consistency at that) does not help the storm matchup. Actually, it makes it worse since it slows the deck down.
As for Archdruid, every useful 1 drop elf is in the deck. you have to fill these slots, and the debate comes between priest and archdruid (since you want as many creatures as possible to ensure the combo keeps going). I have never had an opportunity where I could not have cast an archdruid and would have been able to cast a priest when I should. There is always a way to get him out. He is in the deck because (and I have done this multiple times in tournaments) in addition to helping mana for the combo, with an untapper, you can hardcast emrakul on turn 3 without glimpse. It is awesome. And it happens a lot more than it sounds like it would. He is also useful for bouncing warcaller back into your hand with symbiote and recasting him kicked some insane amount of times.
Thus, your wincons are combo, hardcast emrakul, summon regal force, or go aggro (in that order). One of these is always an option, and it is almost always one of the first two.
Mr. Safety- I would highly recommend 4 visionaries. If you are running out of creatures mid combo, casting them, summoning them, or bouncing them with symbiote and recasting them is a very efficient way to keep going.
k2thej - thanks, 4 it is.
I also agree with the comments about zoo/fish keeping up. Survival can best be described as a slow combo deck...consistent to the bone, but slow. Elves is designed to be fast, at both win/cons (storm combo & aggro)
Exactly, and if you can get elves to combo turn 75% of the time, you're going to beat survival, cause 3/4 games you are gonna combo before they can do anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
I'd just like to chime in regarding the engines.
Glimpse of Nature is the preferred card. It's more cost-effective than Survival, and when your deck is streamlined (such as k2thej's list) it works incredibly well.
Survival gives you repeatable and consistency, but it's slower. See the EPIC Survival Elves thread for more on this.
Summoner's Pact is also very good in this metagame. It it like a one-shot Survival w/o the costs. If you intend to win this turn via attacks, Grapeshot, or Emrakul; then it's almost no risk.
Natural Order gives you a 2-clock. It doesn't really fit into the combo, but is a good Plan B.
My latest Elves list ran:
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Survival of the Fittest
2 Summoner's Pact
SB: 3 Natural Order/1Pro
Since there are multiple threads for each flavor of Elves, I suggest you check them out for different strategies.
Aggro Elves
Combo Elves
EPIC Survival Elves
NO Elves
However at this point, I feel that there is more power in G/x VV Survival lists than Elves. This is not backed by testing, but from experience. Particularly since both Elves and VV are vulnerable to Black decks with Perish and E.Plague, I would rather play the deck that has more attack power (VV).
I don't agree that the Zoo matchup is as good as other have stated. We run minimal amounts of land and rely on Mana Elves to make up for it. Zoo typically runs at least 8 removal spells which interfere with that plan. Backed up by large beaters means it makes it extremely hard to recover in time.
I do agree that when it comes to Beatdown vs Elves, as long as attack steps don't kill you, you ignore them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
All great points. I think the only place I would disagree is in the survival matchup. Since both are affected by these black decks, we have the advantage of being able to go off in one turn and win before their perish matters. This seems like a sizable advantage.
How exactly does this combo finish go? Is it about getting a warcaller that fat into play or how should I look at it?Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
In my meta people are starting to run peacekeeper. How does this get solved?
The combo works by building up enough mana to cast Emrakul. Peacekeeper definitely poses a problem, though if you win with a storm kill instead that problem is solved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waikiki
Also, if you are on the play you might be able to combo before he gets on the field.