Printable View
I'm a big fan of 3 Waste main, 1 Waste 1 Crucible Sideboard in similar UW/x control decks. However, I don't think it works here. It would almost serve better to not play any Wastelands and run a tighter mana base with more basics. Is Back to Basics a serious contender in some sideboards to serve the same effect and cutting off multiple 3c strategies at the same time.
I do not think that Back to Basics is a valid choice here. It works well in something like UW CounterThopter where you play like..3 nonbasics? Our Manabase plays way too many nonbasics. Most of us play 3 Fortress and 3-4 Tundra and 0-2 Splashduals, some tend to run 1 Utility-Land or something. This does not work with B2B here. Yes we could trim our Mainboard/Manabase to something like 2 Tundra and the rest Fetch and Basics but why? I'd rather have the manabase I do play at the moment.
@Wasteland! I agree with Koby, for this deck it's probably better just to use
lands as "Tap for 1 Mana" and nothing more. This deck wants to reach the 8-10 land-count. No need for Wastelandes here.
Greetings
This deck absolutely can not afford to run wastelands. It neuters your own Entreats, kills your ability to Top, and keeps you off double U.
Wasteland isn't even good against Thresh in this deck because they play a Trop and play their goose before you can waste. The damage is already done, and you'll be wishing you had 1 more mana to pay for dazes and spell pierces as you try to clear the board.
Id like some critics on my manabase, as Ive never been too good at building a decent one.
The one with splash is:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Glacial Fortress
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Tropical Island
1 Misty Rainforest
//making 23 for a 61 card-deck.
If id play plain UW it would look like this:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Glacial Fortress
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1....(Fetchie? Island?)
Is 22 enough? What do you think? (for a 60 card deck)
Need some ideas...thank you very much.
I suppose you'll be in situations where hardcasting Force of Will + playing Jace all in one turn is going to happen, but I suspect more situations will arise where you see your opponent stuck on mana/color and you can seize the advantage by playing Jace + Wastelanding your opponent's meager black source. Or in the control mirror, making your opponent fetch for basics early, preventing him from hitting that WWWX for a profitably EtA when he wanted to Miracle it.
I can see the advantages of hitting every land drop and getting to 10+ mana on board, but I also see the advantages of being able to outmana/outcolor your opponents if they falter even a little, and then getting into Crucible nonsense is just the icing on the cake. Again, think of when you're in a control mirror (Miracle vs. Miracle); I certainly don't want to be staring at my opponent's Wastelands while I open with Glacial Fortress, fetch, Tundra.
I think this probably belongs in the CB thopter thread, despite the single CB in the main (strange choice).Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurst2000
I'd add a category "even/unfavorable", to which I would move BUG control, possibly dredge and S&S. These MU are far from unwinnable. Esper blade on the other hand belongs to the unfavourable cattegory. Nic fit (is that even played any more?) is very favorable. Reanimator even/favorable.Quote:
Originally Posted by yutang
trust me on this. REB and Sulfur elemental make Esperblade neigh impossible to lose post board. They just can't apply any pressure and you can easily kill their Jace. That's why they are there. I don't run wasteland because I want to cast big EtAs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp802
thanks forr the match-up answers everyone!
Oh right, I havn't had the Esperblade-MU on the radar (even though I mentioned it a little below - strange) yes with a meta full of Esperblade your deck might be perfectly built to fight this. Excuse me.
Greetings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp802
I've been playing these 22 lands with no complaints:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta (or any 4 blue fetchlands)
1 Marsh Flats (or any 1 white fetchland)
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
3 Glacial Fortress
1 Karakas
Is Fortress solely there are anti-Choke tech?
+ for Tundra 3-6 (4-7)Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
1. You want Karakas in both builds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp802
2. 3 Galacial Fortress might be too many.
3. With 8 fetches, when basic Plains is important, I like running a 5th White fetch (beyond Strand) - this is G/W, in the splash build, so it can still get Tropical Island.
4. 22/60 is fine, especially with this amount of card selection.
5. Basics are so good, and you want dependable UUWW so early, that I would not splash a color unless really needed. K Grip is probably not reason enough (nor, imo, is Sulfur Elemental - Terminus/EE both do a better job, on-color).
There are enough grindy, non-basic-heavy, Wasteland-swinging decks in the format, where you're often fetching basics early anyway, that I like it a lot, especially if not running Wasteland (and if not running counterbalance). After they see 0 wastes G1, they fetch duals aggressively G2, and you can completely restart their mana development, leaving them hoping to top-deck (the right) fetches. Also deals with problem lands like Grove or Factory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Your only win condition faster than a 6 turn clock requires you to have as much mana as possible, especially if they're playing counters or removal. It's really hard to image a normal game where you're wasting some one off a crucial color for 10 turns of the game, during which you never need to wipe the board and don't lose your threat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Your lands are a lot better than theirs, most of their non-basics don't matter (and you can deal with ones that do, like CB for Punishing Fire or removal for Factory), and the game will go long enough that denying them a color is rarely effective. Wasteland will lose you many more games than it wins.
I turned on part of the SCG Invitational to catch a feature match with Ronnie Ritner playing U/W CB Miracles with Fettergeist (!) and Trinket Mage in from the board.
Interested to see that list...
I just wanted to reply real quick as I saw my list was mentioned. I'm the one that top 32ed SCG Worcester with UW Miracle (yes I play thopter foundry). Someone mentioned I played one CB but there was in fact 3 main 1 in the board. It should also be noted that I drew last round as I was guaranteed top 32. Another thing to note is I built a 2nd copy and my friend got one place better than I (I think 23rd). Not bad for 304 players. The deck is awesome, tho the sneak and show matchup is weak, but I knew that when I built it.
For reference I played vs:
dredge 2-0
dredge 2-0
burn 0-2 (ran so bad)
burn 2-0
70 card mirror 2-1
goblins 2-0
sneak show 1-2
sneak show 2-0
Quite the decks I played vs. Also the week prior I lost in the finals of a 7 round gpt for Atlanta cutting to top 8. If you have any questions on the list Ill be sure to answer them. I did try other versions of this deck, but felt this was the strongest.
P.S. I know this isn't a thopter thread, but my deck does have miracles in it, and I saw someone brought my list up so I felt I should respond. Also dredge is a huge bye, I'm 8-0 in games vs it, just use your swords and terminus properly. So who ever said its unwinnable must be playing the matchup wrong.
ur delver 1-1-1
P.S.S. Props to Chags (his source name) as we were exchanging lists and mine is very close to one he sent me.
Congrats on your finish!
I just built you list and I have two comments/questions.
First, your Counterbalance Curve is awfully weak around the 2/3 cc spots. (8 2cc and 1 3cc maindeck). Was this ever an issue? I guess if you're just trying to beat RUG, 15 1cc slots suffice.
Second, why did you pick Surgical Extraction, over say, Grafdigger's Cage for the two sideboard slots? I assume the UGS main is to give Engineered Explosives some range and not to cast SE. Without SCM, SE loses some value.
Thanks for the congrats!
I had played a version with a different curve (ensnaring bridge, o ring, clique) but the issue I had was there were too many cute one ofs. I wanted to play just a smooth consistent list, and also wanted to keep the curve low as too not rely on resolving something vs rug where they have 4 pierce md. The matchups where I want CB having a 1 on top with be devastating and I do have I think 8 2cmc so theres a good chance Ill have a 2cmc on top (I.E. Rug). A matchup like GW I dont plan on beating them with CB (tho sometimes it can get the job done), I'm going to beat them with the 4 md Terminus when I 2 for 1 them or more each time I cast it. They have too many ways to get around CB or just kill it.
You are right with the md Sea, its for e.e. and sometimes casts thopter foundry. I loved the graveyard mix. They are good in different matchups. For example, Relic is amazing vs rug to keep goyf and nimble small, where as I love surgical vs loam. (this matchup is easy). The matchups I bring in gy hate, they have plenty of answers for Cage. (grudge, natures claim, grip, ect). Vs dredge my plan is to use relic to keep them from completely going crazy, and surgical and swords to keep narco and ichorid off the table. Thus they never activate the bridges, and so never having a zombie on board. Dredge cant beat thopter foundry so game 1 you crush them with that (buying time with stp and terminus), game 2 you have the same combo, but the 4th swords, 3rd e tutor, 4 gy hate cards, bridge, and I forget what else, but thats more than enough. Just dont let them leave their draw step with a guy in play and you cant lose I promise.
Congrats aswell!
What would your list look like now. Still the same?
It would depend on what I was trying to beat. If I were trying to beat sneak show, I would change the board by at least adding a third meddling mage. The 2nd needle wouldn't be awful for sneak show too. Just stopping the Griselbrand draw 7 can go a very long way. I would also put the karakas main deck as an out to emrakul (it answers griselbrand too, but they draw at least 7 so your still going to lose). The deck as is I dont think can lose to rug. Im 4-1 vs it, but my lose was an older build with the clunky 3cmc cards, and have since added the 22nd land, and a 2nd e.e. I've also been wanting to cut the counterspell, but I keep it for the cmc.
To answer the thing about wastelands in the control deck. I had 21 land, but wanted another, so I added 2 wastelands, so I still get the colorless if I need it, but I also get a little utility if Im a little flooded. The crucible was then added to compliment the wastes, and also to have another 3cmc.
If you want to metagame this deck against Show and Tell, how would you build it?
3-4 Spell Pierce main?
1 Humility + 2-3 Cunning Wish (do you think that's an option? especially if backed up by counters?)
Hatebear like Meddling Mage main?
anything else?
Rainforest should be a Windswept Heath. The rest looks fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp802
My single non-color land of choice is Kor Haven btw. I digg how it forces your opponent to overextend with their guys.
-
Edit: just went 4-1 at a small but competitive local event. Some points:
- EtA won several games that seemed lost (I still think 2 [not 3] is the cocrrect number).
- CB-Top is an unfair combo
- Terminus is an unfair card
- Those 2 Oblivion Rings really shone every time I drew them
- also I splashed red for 2 Sulfur Elementals (killed some Mothers, Thalias and even 1 Teeg) and 3 red blasts - very recommendable in a meta full of RUG, S&T and the mirror.
So you wouldnt include a Karakas in the 3color-list? Im thinking of cutting the Misty for a Karakas.
Greetings
I also kind of like Cunning Wish here, for several reasons:
1. The ability to get rid of artifacts/enchantments effectively game 1.
2. The ability to find a Surgical Extraction game 1.
3. The fact that it's a CMC 3 to hang out for Counterbalance Shenanigans.
What targets should be run, though, beyond Surgical, Disenchant, and probably a Path to Exile?
My first ideas were Misdirection and Memory's Journey, although the latter one only fits well when going with the green splash. Also, on a second thought, I can't imagine a situation where Journey would be better than Extraction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Other possibilities include Elemental Blasts or even something clunky like the white pulse, but this could be overkill as well and probably fills the sideboard with unneeded stuff.
Maybe Wing ShardsQuote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
And 1 Pulse of the Fields seems amazing in stabilizing some match-ups...
@klaus: Could you post your red splash list? :)
I can: Reanimator. Except for Griselbrand, they often run their fatties as singletons, and can get multiple different targets in their yard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitzbold
Surgical is probably still the better option in general, though, at least if you have SCM.
Quote:
Your ego has a big part of the old primer. "I", "I've", and "I'm" appear over 100 times. It does not read as though you are building concensus but rather hyping yourself and your ideas. Hence, i suggest to be humble and make the primer more accessible to someone who might not agree with each and every card choice.
Quote:
+1
Hanni, I love your passion for deck building, but there have been tons of UW control lists featuring your approach before, the only actual difference is that you have been hyping CB-Top quite persistently - I've tested most of the viable approaches extensively and came to the conclusion that CB-Top wasn't the way to go.
Now a 1 mana Wrath comes along and suddenly CB-Top is cool.
I don't want to sound harsh but ..so we got lucky the miracle is white and fits the deck neatly.
I'm not hating on you, it's just that I totally see Koby's point: humbleness where humbleness is due --> primers should be written with a semi-scientific approach.
Well yeah, please don't take personal offense.
Cheers,
klaus
Wow. I'm not even sure how to reply to this. You guys clearly don't understand the history behind this deck at all. Back in 2007-2008, I was continuously bashed throughout development from the Landstill community (the U/W Control deck of the time) for trying to create a U/W Counterbalance shell. Throughout all of the roadblocks, I still developed the deck and created a new thread for it. Some of those who were interested in the deck and contributed alot asked me to write a new primer for it, so I did.Quote:
Wow! Conceited much? This isn't "your U/W Control deck" and its addition to the DTB certainly isn't 4 years overdue. Just because you started the thread doesn't make it "your" deck. Please show me the Top 8's over the past 4 years that show this deck should have been a DTB. Clearly, they do not exist and it is insulting to the moderators that you imply this should have been a DTB for the past 4 years. A simple, "Yes, we're on DTB!" or "I'm so glad the thread I started was upgraded to DTB!" would do.
All complaining aside, Hanni, I appreciate your contributions to this and other threads. I'm looking forward to the updated primer. While you can be adamant about your points of view, they usually are solid arguments founded in a strong understanding of the deck. I also appreciate Thorondor's and klaus's recent discussions regarding a "base" for the deck, as the base goes a long way to defining the deck and differentiating it from UW Stoneblade.
The primer was written in an "I" style, get over it.
No Klaus, there weren't tons of U/W Control decks with the Counterbalance approach before, at least not during the time of this decks creation and development back in 2008. You should know this better than anyone else because you were part of that Landstill community.
CB/Top has always been the way to go for U/W Control, but the metagame was simply bad for it when Merfolk was the DTB and played en masse. Looking back now, a few adjustments like running 4 Wasteland would have improved that matchup significantly, but that's neither here nor there. Point is, U/W Control was just a bad deck in general back in that metagame, Counterbalance or not. Then SFM came out, and the SFM shell became the go-to U/W Control (albeit it was an aggro/control deck) because it smashed Merfolk. Fast forward to right now... Merfolk is gone, and U/W Counterbalance (with sweepers) is better against the current metagame than the SFM lists.
Conceited? lol
I was making a joke regarding the 4 years overdue thing. But let me point this out; obviously this deck wasn't a DTB, because a DTB is classified as a big player in a metagame. There are plenty of Tier 1 quality decks out there that aren't in the DTB because they don't see enough play.
At any rate, I've decided that I'm not going to write the primer anymore. Thanks for being assholes about it.
Tons of other discussions and stuff I'd like to address, since the page has grown 5 pages over the last few days while I was getting my new computer up and running, but I don't have enough time to do that right now. Just one thing I want to point out though, in regards to C Wish being used to answer artifacts/enchantments... it's slow, and O Ring does that job just fine. Sure, O Ring it doesn't grab Surgical Extraction, but it does answer Emrakul, so there are pros and cons for both. C Wish costing as much mana as it does, though, makes O Ring a much better versatile answer card if you ask me.
Hanni, I was looking forward to your updated primer, and I hope you change your mind on it.
People are gonna be assholes, its the internet lol, just gotta move forward and get over it.
the Wishboard:
1x PtE is a must have, and 1x Spell Pierce you likely want as well. Apart from that I think Disenchant should become Ray of Distortion (or Fracturing Gust if the metagame calls for it): Ray of Distortion is straight out better against Counterbalance and SFM, and probably worse against Vial, so you have the choice. Wish into RoD as opposed to Wish into Disenchant also looks much better if compared to Oblivion Ring.
Then, 1x PotF if Burn is an issue, and 1x E.Tutor, so you can grab Humility and Canonist, and last but not least 1x CA-spell like FoF or White Sun’s Zenith. A CA-spell takes up SB-slot, but frees up a maindeck slot, which is of higher value, since you can afford to run less high-end cards.
1 Path to Exile
1 Spell Pierce
1 Ray of Distortion
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Fact or Fiction/White Sun’s Zenith
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pulse of the Fields
In summary, I think Cunning Wish is better than Oblivion Ring if you make full use of it.
...how to metagame against S&T?
To be honest, I wish the primers on this site were wikis, so they could be updated more often, and by more than the the original poster, at least in cases when the original poster is no longer active on the thread.
As someone who got back into the game relatively recently (last Fall), there are gobs of useful information in these threads and no one can realistically go through the entire history. Updating a wiki with the established lists/compiled knowledge as the metagame changes would be nifty.
Anyway, I'm way off topic now, so to bring it back, I wouldn't be so sure that Merfolk is gone from the meta, what with Cavern of Souls and the squeezing out of Stoneblade. Does anyone know well how Miracle Control can deal with Merfolk? They can slow-roll Terminus, but can that slow them down enough?
The problem with relying on Pulse of the Fields against burn (or RUG, for that matter) is Sulfuric Vortex. Unless you run enough enchantment removal that you're confident you can blow up the Sulfuric Vortex, personally, I prefer CoP:Red or Aegis of Honor.
Ditto.Quote:
Originally Posted by god_campbell
+1 to the wiki suggestion - would definitely be a revolution to the source
Hanni, didn't intend to make you take your ball and go home.
Maybe you'll update the primer when you have some more time?
At least 2 other people offered their assistance to help you update it and I'll chip in with sideboard suggestions and match-up analysis.
His list is now up at SCG.Quote:
Originally Posted by anwei
I will be testing Fettergeist in the board. He's a reasonable dude on defense to deal with Rug's non-Goyf guys, lets you board into a faster deck if the clock is running low, and might be really decent in the Sneak/Show matchup, as having enough 3-drops does a lot to swing the late-game inevitability in your favor, and having another solid clock is a big deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Buddha
What do you all expect the metagame to start siding in to improve their UW Miracles match up?
Hanni, I'd happy aswell if you updated the primer.
@Anti-Miracle: Mostly they will return to Krosan Grip, atleast Maverick will start to play multiples of them in their sideboard - same for RUG as the now running Ancient Grudge isn't near Krosan Grips effecitvness. If Terminator really does get a big threat to the metagame people might start to play more discard-tempo-decks which are hosing us quite a bit. Thought Scour might be played more and more aswell as it 1) deals with miracles or 2) deals with top once we miracled in their turn.
Greetings
4 STPQuote:
Originally Posted by JimmyC27
4 BS
4 FOW
4 Top
4 Terminus
3 Jace
3 CB
3 Pierce
2 CS
2 SCM
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Oblivion Ring
[37]
9 Fetch (incl. 1 Arid Mesa)
3 Tundra
2 G. Fortress
2 Plains
3 Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Kor Haven
1 Karakas
[23]
SB:
2 Surgical Ex.
2 Relic
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 PtE
1 CB
2 Disenchant
1 Clique
1 Jace
1 flex slot
Teferi.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyC27
Can you imagine?
@klaus: Did Flusterstorms not give you the same effect you wanted out of the REBs?
@Tammit67: Yargh. Haha.
I have played the S&T match up at real events quite a few times and I'm always confident going into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Buddha
I feel the list I have been running has been fairly strong against the deck and I feel the matchup is actually even/favorable. My main deck counter suite has been 4 FoW, 4 Counterspell, 2 Spell Pierce, 3 CB. In the side I have 2 more Pierces, 2 Humility, a Porphyry node, Pithing Needles. Game 1 is 50/50 with that amount of disruption, and post board I say my build, and many others I've seen, are favored.
Having said that, I finally lost my first match to it this past week due to a couple issues: First, my opponent was running Wipe Away which is rather uncommon among current lists, but makes sense as our meta is very blue heavy. If they were echoing truth's I would have been able to protect my Show and Tell'd Humilities games 2 and 3. Second, I was greedy because my post board hands had Humilities and Pithing needles with not much filtering, so naturally I got stuck on 3 lands both games. I could have cast Humility and protected it after it was bounced, but I couldn't find land (or a Terminus) :frown: