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So I cut one stifle, I always found the card just being clunky, and the deck runs well. I have two win a mox top 8s, and a top 32 scg so it seems to work. But, if the release of Dack Fayden, I cut a spell pierce and added him. I was wondering what you're opinions are on him? and a main Life from the loam, I knwo it seems janky but I always feel like the way I lose a lot of games is keeping 1 landers and getting wasted out, just wondering some opinions
RUG delver is a machine. The thing is, the curve is so low and with 18 (14 functional where only 6 taps for mana), 3CMC just seems counterproductive. Also, the value gained by looting ones a turn isn't really as needed in here, where you don't have all that much synergy (ie. Goblin Welder etc).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Brian Pepper
Also: Needle, however, is also strong in match ups where null rod wouldn't matter at all, like vs SnS (Sneak attack), BUG (Drs) etc.
I agree that maybe Loam is a bit much, but I think maining Dack is the real deal. It gives Rug some late game, and coming from experience, it does suck when a batter-skull hits the field unstifled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
Null Rod: Strong hate, but a bit slow and unflexible. If you cut 1 Ancient Grudge/Destructive Revelry for this, you are more vulnerable to Chalice@1.
3 Stifle: I happen to agree with this number.
Dack: Has some relevant abilities for threshold, but how much help is he against a resolved Batterskull? You can gain control of the equipment, but the 0/0 token stays with the opponent, and Batterskull remains attached to it unless you can get to 5 mana and control a non-shroud creature.
I dont quite understand you, what does the token have to do with anything? and can they return it to their hand if they dont control it?Quote:
Originally Posted by M+1
Yes they can. Also, the batter skull is still equipped to their creature, which mean THEY have a 4/4 black vigilant, life linking token.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Brian Pepper
They can't use any of its abilities, once you gain control. You can return it to owner's (their) hand, if you wish. I guess that is slightly better than not being able to do anything..
You can attach it to another creature you control (not Nimble Mongoose) if you have 5 mana.
Otherwise it remains attached to whatever it is attached to when you gain control, which means that you still need to deal with a 4/4 vigilance, lifelink.
A maindeck Dack Fayden seems much worse than a maindeck True-Name Nemesis, which can also help neutrilize Jiite/Batterskull as well as attack for 3. I don't think I would want either in my 75 though.
Why are so many people trying to improve and revolutionize something that isn't broken? It's working fantastic with it's current setup.
Dack Fayden has no business being in this deck.
was unaware of this interactions, considering taking him out nowQuote:
Originally Posted by M+1
upon further testing the past weeks with 2 TNNs...
tnn builts are better vs decks such as bug, dnt, decks that carry removals...but arent that good vs unfair matchups where goyfs shine.
major tourney will be on the 29th...switching back to just 1 tnn and 1 v.cliq main
So I've been a bit MIA lately, but I have been testing a slightly new build and it's been doing ok. Last week it went technically 2-1-1 (split with friend so we both made prizes), but would have gone 3-1 (2/0 deathblade, 2/1 dredge, 0/2 elves, 2/0 elves). This week I went 2/2 (2/0 D&T, 1/3 GBW midrange, 2/0 Jund Lands, 0/2 Deathblade). Anyways onto the list:
53 RUG Delver (-1 Goyf)
1 Sylvan Library
4 Chain Lightning
2 Spell pierce
SB (still tweaking)
Graveyard hate: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
combo hate:
-3 pyroblast (2 for sure not sure about the third)
-2 flusterstorm
-1 Spell Pierce
-1 Vendilion Clique
Artifact Hate: Artifact Mutation, destructive Revelry (was a grip, but I think this will be better with the 8 bolts in the main)
D&T hate / other: rough, Sulfur Elemental
control: Sulfuric Vortex (haven't tried this yet hoping it will be good)
Midrange / Secret tech against TNN: Price of Progress
What do you guys think about running a sideboard without Submerge? I'm gambling on not hitting the Goyf decks, but to be honest I never seem to see them anymore. The alternate plan against the bug variants with Goyf is siding in Vortex and Price ideally closing the game before goyf becomes to much of a problem. Still need to test this plan not sure if it will work.
Let me just say the mainboard Library has been amazing for me. For example tonight against Lands I paid 4 life to draw into wasteland + stifle. Another game it drew me into another green source after being wasted off it. Against my GBW match up while I kind of tossed the last game by being too aggressive with my Library it did find Rough game 2 catching a DRS, Confidant and Gatekeeper ( he had confidant which I followed with library then he dropped gatekeeper having me sac goose). The idea behind it in this particular build is it helps find the extra burn and makes your silver bullet sideboard cards more accessible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Purgatory
Before Library was slow and didn't impact the board, but now the meta has slowed down for TNN. All the decks that were packing lots of turn 2 threats (goyfs, confidants, mystics, hymn etc) have added TNN to the repertoire and in turn slowing them down. It also allows for just some free wins by finding extra bolts on top. Essentially it's a 2 mana jace and we have a lot of shuffle effects to improve it with.
I've never realized how good card advantage was until I chained really broken draws together like Stifle + wasteland, stifle + insert taxing counter, Bolt (for DRS) + insert taxing counter here, etc. Essentially you draw any combination of disruption + counter back up every turn. I would highly recommend trying it out.
Nice list! i've postet the almost same list on the first page of the thread :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Contract Killer
I love the Price of progress in the sb, and would never leave to a tournament without them. They can knockout a whole deck like esper, lands, aggro loam, and also death and taxes with pushing the last damage.
So, whats your opinion for the two flexslots for spell pierce ? Maybe is it worth to play Envelop, to have better preboard options against Miracle, ANT, Shardless, etc. ?
Greets
I've been testing no submerges for the last looong time, and I haven't missed them. There isn't, however, any KotR-decks in my meta either, which would be were I'd be missing it the most.Quote:
Originally Posted by Contract Killer
I am, however, playing 2 spell snare over 2 spell pierce. I think they are a stronger card, and the only thing they don't hit is top + SnT. This makes goyf a slightly less problematic card for me.
Ive cut the third submerge too, replacing it with the 2snare..has more application these days with less kotrs, goyfs in the field..anytime u face off bug, patriot, jund, dnt it has major impact early and midgame...and can still be very helpful vs chalice1, gsz1, defense grids, price progress, burning wish at infernals.
Which is the best choice for removal, besides lightning bolt?
- 2 Forked Bolt ?
- 2 Fire/Ice ?
- 2 Chain Lightning ?
Even the majority of the recent lists uses forked bolt, I personally prefer chain lightning.
Removals are one of the leaks of this type of Delver deck, in my opinion. You can't easily handle a tarmogoyf or any other big creatures!
For example, Patriot has StP and Team America has Abrupt Decay for this kind of situation..
I'm looking for a solution for this removal problem, but unfortunately I believe there is no one
If your meta game has a lot of bigger creatures, consider Dismember. It's really good, even if it's always -4 life for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamus
How do you guys feel about Sulfur Elemental, I notice most decks no longer pack him in the sb. I think needles are needed in today's meta, possibly a 1 needle, 1 null rod
before i used forked bolts, and it's truly amazing...but seeing less goyfs around in my meta filled with drs/sfms...ive switched to TARFIRESQuote:
Originally Posted by Kamus
i carry a 7 burn list (4bolts, 2 tarfires, 1 fice - to up my blue count still, and tap tempo big crits when im ahead)
i would always want my spot removals to be instant, since i carry 1 or sometimes 2 TNNs main (replaced the 2nd with v.cliq upon testing), so i could do something when i arrive to three manas. ive always felt comfortable with additional burn, so i dont need to counter backbreakers like sfms, drs, mom...thus reserving counters to impt spells like tnns, shows, lotvs and such..
@shiftykapree: there are lots still (DnTs) in my meta, ive cut sulfur and replaced them needles, sulfur can be very effective once u land them, but will still be vulnerable to removal, i just tried to burn asap mom when i see one..2 roughs in the sb will surely be of help, i added the 2nd tnn in the sb, and helped me alot battling white army, but also make sure of the correct timing with rough...coz it hits own tnn..
For those with artifact mutation in the sideboard, do you board it in against Shardless BUG? They often only have 4 targets but hitting a Shardless agent with it is a high value play. I've had mixed results with it so far
Given that Shardless Agent isn't really a threat to us (outclassed by Mongoose and Goyf, Delver goes over the top), the only resource I would want to expend on Shardless Agent is a Stifle on it's triggered ability. I would hate to be on Artifact Mutation when they are on DRS, Goyf or Liliana. Granted I don't play Artifact Mutation but that doesn't sound like a good place to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by trollking21
You find shardless EASY?Quote:
Originally Posted by BKclassic
I find the matchup real, real hard. How do you play it?
I'd board it in. anything that hits Strix/Jitte and gives us attackers (although only tow mere 1/1 saprolings) is pretty decent. Also, while Shardless Agent is hardly a clock, it's pretty funny to Stifle/counter the cascade, then kill the blocker and make three dudes in the process.
I used to board in one ancient grudge against shardless BUG...I don't like the idea to kill their shardless bear, but it is worth playing it because of their baleful strix.Quote:
Originally Posted by trollking21
I am just trying to say that the best answer to Shardless Agent is Stifle since a vanilla 2/2 is outclassed by everything in our deck. Shardless BUG certainly is a tight match-up, I wouldn't waste a slot on Artifact Mutation against an unknown opponent. Many Shardless players are playing less Strix's (see Lejay's list) and I haven't seen anyone playing Jitte in Shardless BUG anytime recently, but if you are in your local meta or something and you KNOW your opponent is on 4x Strix and equipment, Artifact Mutation is certainly more reasonable. Cards that I would consider effective against Shardless BUG would be Pyroblast and Submerge. The key to beating Shardless BUG is to advance your board state in such that your opponent is going to have to have a perfect draw to beat you. Keep advancing your board state and don't be afraid to FoW aggresively. This is a great match up for Gitaxian Probe because it will expose the weaknesses in your opponents hand, and it will keep you drawing into more threats and Stifles. Shardless BUG plays slow haymakers. Maximize your mana each turn and you should be able to stay ahead. Submerge will put you back in the driver's seat if your opponent is starting on Deathrite Shaman when you are on the draw (although if you have a burn spell you should probably just use that). I board out 4 FoW (2 Daze, 2 FoW on the draw) for 2 Pyroblast and 2 Submerge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
Since when do you ever keep FOW in against Shardless BUG? It's card disadvantage against the deck with the most card advantage in legacy. On top of that they have Hymn and Lili causing for situations where casting FOW might not even be an option. I understand wanting some counterspells on the draw, but still it's just so bad in that match up.
+1, ancient grudge will be of value here, their strix acts as removal too on our crits ounce they block any of em..well..Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinZ
@contract killer: ive always boarded out fows vs this matchup...i would rather have some numbers of reb instead of fow, and definitely i would insert in pierces, submerges, needles...but fow will surely hit the bench.
My current boarding plan is out
4/2 Force
2/4 daze
In
1 TNN
2 REB
2 Submerge
1 artifact mutation- I also have grudge would that be a better board in? I'm doubting that both are necessary.
It's been okay, the 2 TNN's after board help a lot and I get a some random wins, but they are still favored quite a bit in my experience. Blowing up Shardless agent or baleful strix can be a way to stay alive, or deal some surprise damage.
Mutation seems iffy to me on paper at least. Basically all of BUG's creatures outclass the 1-2 tokens you get, and as mentioned the bear isn't the scary thing in Shardless Agent. To me using Grudge to undermine their grip of the board seems like a much better way to go - without Strixes they have to start sacrificing actual cards to defend their planeswalkers, and that sounds like a good spot for RUG. I mean, throw an actual beater at a Strix so a couple tokens maybe get through and then just get eaten by Agents and Deathrites, or blow the Strixes the hell up and attack with superior creatures that can continue to force them into uncomfortable situations?
I'll see if I can get a friend to grid a dozen games or so tonight and see if ancient grudge is better then mutation.
If your discussion point is facing down a deck with discard, forgoing tokens for the ability to keep your Spell live against disruption seams like the way to go.
Yep. The reason why I took Mutation alongside Grudge is that Shardless plays quite a lot of artifact targets and I want to have one ready when they play Strix, Jitte or even the Agent. It's better to have a mere pair of 1/1 tokens than stare at Stryx and it's better to have the same mere tokens than to face Jitte and yes, it's better to have three mere tokens than attack into a chumpblocker. I'm not saying that the whole idea of sbing the artifact hate is valid, maybe it's unnecessary, esp. against the versions without equipments and/or those with lesser number of Strixes. However I still feel that both these cards are valuable IF you decide to destroy their artifacts and somehow profit (slightly afvance your board state or gain CA), so it's not like Mutation cannot be taken in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
For me the more important and interesting question is: is it worht to sb those cards at all? I guess when facing a 4/4/2 Stri/Agent/equips versions, then it's out of question, otoh, I played quite some games in the past days and unfortunatel the whole plan failed.
Played in a 4 round legacy tournament...went 2-2
54 RUG -1 Stifle +2 Spell Pierce +2 Forked Bolt +2 G Probe + 1 Spell Snare
SB
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
2 Submerge
2 REB
2 Rough
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
beat miracles 2-1 (big misplay on his part of not cracking EE @ 1 with unflipped delver and mongoose - he allowed delver to flip). I boarded like -2 Forked Bolt -2 Stifle -2 Daze +2 REB +1 Krosan Grip +1 Pithing Needle +2 Spell Pierce
beat Elves 2-0
rough was a blowout. forked bolt also a blowout. I boarded like -3 stifle -2 Daze +2 Submerge +2 Rough +1 Grafdigger's Cage
lost to Junk
vague recollection of the 3 games but i remember i fork bolted a confidant and dryad arbor and it felt amazing.
i sided like -2 daze -2 spell pierce -2 FoW +2 submerge +2 surgical +1 ancient grudge +1 krosan grip.
I think I need a better card for these type of MU because sometimes you just dont have the answers for all the threats. DRS, SFM, Bob, goyf, KOTR, etc...any SB help here would be great. I remember I brought in surgical expecting loams because he did play a mox diamond but there were none in his list, so this was definitely a mistake. shrug.
lost to UWr delver
kept a 1 lander with a ponder. ponder revealed no more land so i shuffled. he wasted me next turn. never drew more lands. similar scenario game 2. lost of wastelands for him, no lands for me :(. i stifled an early fetch of his but he later told me after the match he kept a 4 lander so that stifle ended up being sub optimal. i think i sided like
-2 daze -2 fow +2 REB +1 ancient grudge +1 krosan grip
I think this game was mostly just bad luck, as i feel pretty comfortable with the MU.
For starters I don't really agree with boarding out stifles against miracles you can hit miracle triggers first and foremost, jace bounce, EE, fetches, fetches with miracles on the stack even better and it's a way to get out of counter balance lock "REB counterbalance *top... flip top* stifle flip" or something along those lines maybe you just need that last bolt to get through.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
Junk - Your best bet is to just have the tempo plan. It's a pretty bad match up on par with Jund. I mean they have a very similar game plan just switch bloodbraids with KOTR and bolts to swords.
UWR Delver - Take all your forces out regardless otp or otd. In tempo mirrors force always hits the board because you can't afford the card disadvantage. I would also probably not ponder turn 1 for lands unless you have literally nothing better to hold up. I mean it's not like you're going to play the lands you find and waiting a turn gets you one deeper. There's the chance that they have daze/spell pierce, but I doubt they would counter a ponder. Usually in tempo mirrors you want to save counter magic to push through removal/threats/brainstorm so everything but ponder hahaha.
Took 11th place today with the deck, and took home a badlands and my lil bro took home a plateau for 15th place with team America. All and all a good day
Here's my list and the match-ups I played against had some unbelievable luck wins today and an unexpected loss today to burn :laugh: deck is so underrated.
Maindeck: 60
4 delver
4 goose
4 tarmogoyf
4 fow
4 bs
4 ponder
4 daze
4 stifle
2 spell pierce
2 spellsnare
4 lightning bolt
2 forked bolt
4 misty
4 tarn
4 wasteland
3 trop
3 volc
Sideboard: 15
2 pithing needle
1 ancient grudge
1 krosan grip
2 rough/tumble
1 grafdiggers
3 REB
1 Flusterstorm
3 Submerge
1 V-clique
Round 1: Esper blade
Crushed this deck, landed a goyf and goose against him, kept him off DRS and was all good.
2-0
record: 1-0
Round 2: Mono-red Staxx
Game 1 lost the dice roll, plays a turn 1 chalice for 1, wasn't too upset bc I had two goyfs in my hand and fill my gy up with 1 drops and was able to counter blood moon turn 2
Game 2 similar fashion, wasn't looking forward to playing this match-up but beat it was happy
2-0
Record: 2-0
Round 3: Mono-red Staxx (WTF :eek: )
Similar fashion as last round went, kicked ass and took names
2-0
Record: 3-0
things are looking up for me this tournament
Round 4:Mono red burn
Game 1 he gets me, really underrated deck
Game 2 I win
Game 3: lands a grim, I had a fow and BS in my hand with no creatures on board and no other draw spells. Debated hard about countering the grim, but I didn't. Couldn't find a bolt to remove him. He gets me and makes top 8
1-2
Record 3-1
Round 5: U/G Infect
I honestly hate this deck, It blows my mind people play this shit. No offense to my opponent but I wouldn't waste the tournament fee to play this deck EVER!
Game 1 he wins beats me bc I don't draw removal
Game 2 I win after a long battle but get there with needle naming inkmoth
Game 3 I win after hitting the nuts
2-1
Record 4-1
Round 6: DNT
Game 1: I was able to lose the dice roll and he sticks a vial down, pretty much is history
Game 2: I get triple wasteland even after I name needle with vial. beats me down with that Brimazz dude and a BS.
My opinion of this deck is that it's 50/50 and I really missed Sulfur Elemental in the sideboard for it, I may cut a REB or V-Clique for it again.
0-2
Record: 4-2
Round 7: Final Round Mono-brown staxx ( I hate playing against this deck)
Game 1 he lands a chalice for 1 on turn 1 luckily I won the dice roll and has a delver doesn't flip for 3 turns but I get there
Game 2: he lands turn 1 chalice, turn two trinsphere and was able to pay my daze, beats me down with two lodestones I call it a game
Game 3: I land a delver doesn't flip for 3 turns, I play a second one turn 2 and the rest was history.
2-1
Final record: 5-2
I miss top 8th by 3 spots, not too upset, wish I made it too top 8 but it happens. Glad to take 11th place and bring home a shitty badlands, and my bro taking 15th place and bringing home a plateau
Props: all mad chill opponents
Good atmosphere of crowd, no real fucking weirdo's there that make the game socially unacceptable
Tournament for running smoothly
Slops:
The judges for deck checking me round 4 against burn and having me to reshuffle my deck.
Also for being a bunch of hard asses for the day.
For it being hotter than hell in the tournament with no AC in the game room.
I'm glad to say after going negative with the deck the last two tournaments I played in, I can finally say I'm back on the map and ready to continue my success with it like I use to have. Keep flipping those delvers, and keeping the goose loose homie's :cool:
You don't really need vendilion clique in this deck.
THe counter suite and the stifles makes up for whatever vendilion clique does.
Clique has very specific, but powerful uses:Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
Stealing miracle cards with the trigger on the stack
Stealing Show and Tell / Sneak Attack targets
Stealing Stoneforge Mystic equipment pieces
These are the main ones that affect what only 3 really popular decks? Aside from doing the above mentioned it also adds a threat to the board while disrupting the opponents game plan. Other more niche situations can involve timing it right to steal nasty cards like True Name and Abrupt Decay before they hit the table. I'm also pretty sure everyone on this thread will agree with me that Vendilion Clique is one the most powerful sideboard cards we have and it's a shame if you don't play it. It's the very essence of our deck disrupting our opponent while advancing our board state.
In other news I just finished a 70 man 7 round tournament with an ok finish of 4/3 losses were: Infect round 3, Deathblade round 6, BUG Delver round 7. Report soon to follow...
Vendilion Clique is usually insane in the matchup where goyf's a bit lackluster.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
i was going off of this guy's sideboard and matchup issues with DNT
Sideboard: 15
2 pithing needle
1 ancient grudge
1 krosan grip
2 rough/tumble
1 grafdiggers
3 REB
1 Flusterstorm
3 Submerge
1 V-clique
from what he put, the best bet is to take out the clique for his sulfur elemental. He can take out a submerge as well too, but just saying.
Stifles and counter suits is usually quite a bit for sneak attack and miracles for you to win against without clique