If we remove from this list brainstorm and put 4 not this words what do you think?Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Hammer
Printable View
If we remove from this list brainstorm and put 4 not this words what do you think?Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Hammer
Hey guys, I just went 7-0 undefeated with Turbo Depths! This was a Grand Prix Trial, so I now have two shiny new byes for the upcoming Legacy Grand Prix near me! This was my list...
Creatures- 8
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
Other Spells- 30
4 Crop Rotation
4 Not of This World
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Thoughtseize
2 Expedition Map
4 Lotus Petal
3 Into the North
4 Duress
1 Sylvan Library
Lands- 22
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Karakas
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Bayou
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Verdant Catacombs
Sideboard-15
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Planar Void
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
The tournament went as follows...
Eldrazi- 2-1
Infect- 2-1
Enchantress- 2-1
Burn- 2-1
U/R Delver- Intentional Loss to get us both into top 8 (won the fun games though)
Eldrazi- 2-1
Burn in the finals 2-0
Congrats! That's a pretty old-school list. Are you, by any chance, going to write a report on your MU's?
Hmmm, I doubt I can remember everything, but I'll take a look at my notes and see what I can get down for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
Eldrazi- 2-1
Game one I keep a decently fast hand, which would result in a turn 3 monster. He has double wasteland, though, and before I can recover he ends up swinging for 12 damage very early on. This was my first time playing against Eldrazi, and I have since figured out that this match up is very much a race. They can swing you out of the game just as quickly as you can make a 20/20
Game 2 I keep a very fast hand with fast mana, Dark Depths, and Hexmage. He places Chalice on zero, but I've got ESG instead. I kill him early.
Game 3 I don't remember, sorry. I know that I had a needle naming wasteland on turn 1 and that he drew a wasteland on the next turn.
Infect- 2-0
Games were very close. Can't quite remember game one, except that he was able to delay me for a turn by block my marit with an inkmoth. Game 2 came down to him having 2 infect creatures and 2 hierarchs in play, with me at 5 infect. I had golgari charmed during my main phase earlier in the game to force him to invigorate a guy and lose a hierarch. After setting up with depths and stage I duress'd a Become immense from his hand and he was in topdeck mode for a kill. He didn't find anything, and I killed him on my turn.
Enchantress- 2-1
Game 1 he kept an iffy hand and I was able to just walk through him. He did attempt to karakas my Cthulhu, but I had a Not of this World waiting.
Game 2 it was my turn to keep an iffy hand. It had double hexmage, some fast mana, a forest, and a stage after a mulligan. I kept, thinking that all I needed was a land search and I could fast mana stage my Marit out, but I never found one and he stripped my hand with Brain Maggots. Thinking back, I think the hand was too greedy and too dependant on a top deck against something that can just wall me off forever. Adding blood moon to the mix, and I was dead for sure.
Game 3 I had the nuts turn one needle naming karakas off an urborg, turn two depths casting hexmage. He had no chance.
Burn- 2-1
Don't remember exactly how these games went, but I know they were very close. Discard hitting Prices and Fireblasts were key in the match. He had a turn one goblin guide every game, which sucked for me, but I till made it. Game three was a fast mana turn 2 Into the north followed by hexmage on turn 3. Just too fast for him.
U/R Delver- Intentional Loss to get us both into top 8 (won the fun games though)
Wasn't paying too much attention to these games. He feigned a stifle at one point, but didn't have it. Game two e kept me back with a bridge while my 20/20 sat in play until I could find decay. He mentioned Vapor Snag but never actually cast it.
Eldrazi- 2-1
I lost game one to a wasteland keeping me off combo for too long. His fatties hit hard and early.
Game 2 He kept a slowish hand and cast a turn one Thorn of Amethyst, which did slow me down a little, but I was on the stage plan. I made some bad play mistakes involving Ghost quarter and I think I deserved to lose this game as a result, but I was able to draw out of it thanks again to hexmage and killed him in the mid game. At the end, In response to my attempting to make a 20/20, he dismembered his own Matter Reshaper, hoping to find a wasteland on top of his deck, but no such luck for him.
Game 3 I had the nuts needle on one naming wasteland off of urborg, then top decking hexmage with a dark depths in hand. Sometimes you just have it.
Burn in the finals 2-0
Nothing too exciting. He had no interaction with me. Discard kept him off of his big spells, and both games I had very fast hands thanks to petal/guide. I think game 2 was another urborg, depths, hexmage hand.
This is all from memory, so I'm sure it's not 100% accurate, but hopefully it is satisfactory!
Congratulation..interesting side...golgari charm side in Vs?Quote:
Originally Posted by -Spooky-
I expected Goblin and Elf decks in my meta, as well as Death and Taxes, so I included the charm as a way to give me a bit more of an edge against them while also giving me a way to splash hate for any enchantments that I might not like seeing. Of course, I never ran into the tribal decks I was expecting, so they only really came in against Enchantress and infect.Quote:
Originally Posted by caprino
I think matchup Vs death and taxes and miracle is very hard right?Quote:
Originally Posted by -Spooky-
Main deck 4 duress no inquisition ok kozilek?Quote:
Originally Posted by -Spooky-
Didn't have access to the Kozileks, that's the main reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by caprino
Matchup Vs miracle is difficult?Quote:
Originally Posted by -Spooky-
Recent coverage in Atlanta of a Legacy Quarterly event on Tusk Vision (check them out on Twitch) showed some DD action.Quote:
Originally Posted by caprino
I was crushing Miracles when my meta was full of it. I played a slower list with no mana acceleration but with 4 Sylvan Library 4 Pithing Needle 7 Discard maindeck. Sideboard had not of this world, steely resolve and choke. I had problems being a bit too slow vs everything else though.Quote:
Originally Posted by caprino
Write you main deck list and side ok? ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
Hello! I'm a longtime reader, but first time I write something on the Source. Glad that I became a member of this community.
For some time now I play version of this deck, more or less similar to that designed by Mr. Thomas Hepp also known as Negator77. This is a BUG version, to be more specific. And to him, mainly I will direct my questions, but I hope that this will start greater discussion in this thread.
Here is the list you played in StarCityGames Legacy Open in February:
Mainboard
4 Vampire Hexmage
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
2 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Sylvan Scrying
4 Thoughtseize
3 Expedition Map
4 Mox Diamond
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Mana Confluence
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Wasteland
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sejiri Steppe
Sideboard
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Flusterstorm
2 Krosan Grip
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Pithing Needle
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Karakas
---
Abrupt Decay - What's the reason for this card in mainboard other the meta call (for a high number of Eldrazi I guess)? I think that this card should be in the side, and we could use this slot for a more useful card such as Exploration, Pithing Needle etc.
Inquisition of Kozilek - Isn't Duress just superior to this? Of our main issues, the only thing that Duress doesn't hit is Flickerwisp. But it removes Terminus, Batterskull, Submerge and Force of Will, which Inquisition does not reach.
Mox Diamond - Do we still need 4 copies of this? Lately I was wondering if Exploration wouldn't be slightly better choice. As for the speed Exp is significantly better, with the exception of the first round when they are the same. We don't get rid of our lands, which in case of Mox are going to the grave. We can faster rebuild our combo after Marit Lage leaves the game or someone Wasteland us. The only con I can think of is Blood Moon.
Wasteland - Have you ever considered a second one?
Surgical Extraction - How often this card saved your life? Do you think that this is absolutely necessary in the side? I cought myself on the fact that I side-in Surgical only for Miracles or Reanimator matches, which I think isn't worth 3-4 slots in sideboard.
Have you ever considered one of this card in your build:
Ponder
Chalice of the Void
Stifle
Exploration
Toxic Deluge
Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Maze of Ith
Lotus Petal
Sylvan Library?
And aside from all that above... Do you guys think that the BUG version should look forward to its own thread? I mean that the build created by Negator77 is run differently than the classic BG (BGr) version. And as Captain Hammer noted: "Pretty much every single deck that top 8ed in the past few months is playing something that is nearly identical to the above list".
You can add a list that would playQuote:
Originally Posted by paraszczak
My current list.
Mainboard:
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying
2 Expedition Map
4 Exploration
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Brainstorm
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Wasteland
1 Sejiri Steppe
Sideboard
4 Flusterstorm
3 Stifle / 3 Spell Pierce
3 Krosan Grip
4 Pithing Needle
1 Karakas
Notable changes in mainboard are Exploration instead of Mox Diamond as well as playset of Duress instead Inquisition of Kozilek. I mentioned in an earlier post why I think these changes are necessary. Also I play without mainboard Bojuka Bog (actually without it at all) but with second Wasteland. Oh.. and a single forest in case of Blood Moon. In sideboard I threw Surgical Extraction for Stifle (earlier in this slot was Spell Pierce but I'm not convinced to it any more). Stifle is very good against Storm decks, which I consider one of our two worst enemies (the second are Miracles). I plan to put one or two copies of Sylvan Library to mainboard.
flusterstorm instead of stifle?Quote:
Originally Posted by paraszczak
not of this world instead you do not like the main deck?
the main pithing needle you do not like?
paraszczak:you feel comfortable against miracle?
Not of this World is too narrow in my opinion. In some matchups it is also a dead card. I would consider it maybe in sideboard. There is no place for Pithing Needle in mainboard. I do not quite understand your question about the Stifle and Flusterstorm.
In case of Miracles... I feel very comfortable between Thoughtseize, Duress and postboard Pithing Needle, Flusterstorm and Krosan Grip. Also thanks to Exploration I'm able to rapidly rebuild combo. I feel like Miracles matchup is about 50:50.
Loving this deck, but I still think my sideboarding is weak. I'm taking it to the CFB 3k tomorrow, and would love some additional sideboarding help. Can you give the general idea for Miracles, Delver, Lands, Eldrazi and Shardless BUG? The sideboarding strategy in the primer does not seem to apply to your version of the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Negator77'
my opinion that as a means for me works better without blue, but green and blackQuote:
Originally Posted by paraszczak
BUG version is superior to just BG if you ask me. Just look at the results: http://www.tcdecks.net/results.php?t...ide=&strict=onQuote:
Originally Posted by caprino
Quote:
Originally Posted by paraszczak
Hello!
How have you been enjoying playing with and how have you been doing with your version?
Abrupt Decay - It's mainly a catch-all. It just performs a lot of random functions and doesn't leave the deck basically cold to a game 1 Blood Moon or Ensnaring Bridge out of certain decks. Its good against Miracles and hits all sorts of annoying cards like Knight of the Reliquary and Chalice of the Void. I also want at least 4 Decay + Grip effects post board against several decks, so having one in the main deck opens up a sideboard slot. It's the biggest flex slot in the deck in my opinion though, so its the place to start if you want to fit something else into the main deck.
Inquisition vs Duress - There are a similar number of problem cards that both hit and miss in my opinion. Of the ones you named that Duress hits, Terminus isn't really an issue in hand (and you can take the Brainstorm if they are tapped out - if not Terminus is getting floated anyway) and Submerge is generally easy to play around(see previous posts on that). There are plenty of creatures that can be issues from time to time that Inquisition hits and Duress does not including Knight of the Reliquary (especially when they are on the play), Snapcaster Mage, and Phyrexian Revoker. Even taking a Delver or similar creature from a tempo deck can buy a ton of time to play through Wastes/Stifles/etc. In playing the deck a ton, I have run into situations where I've lost games because of drawing Duress instead of IOK and vice versa. Sadly, they won't let us run 8 copies of Thoughtseize! :)
Mox vs Exploration - they perform similar functions generally, but are much different in practice. I feel like my version has a very good storm and combo match-up in part because of the Diamond. Turn 1 Mox into Brainstorm allows you to see 10 or 11 cards AND fire off a disruption piece that you found. I can't tell you the number of games I've won in that fashion where the brainstorm off of a Mox finds the discard spell and also sets up a turn two token. It is also Blood Moon protection, makes you Daze proof against tempo if played properly, and fixes your colors which is huge in post board games where you want to be keeping various colored mana up for and to represent Crops, Flusters, etc. Like any other trade-off, there are downsides like those you mentioned.
Wasteland - Yeah, I think about adding another copy all the time. Deck space is tight though. If I was to add a card, it would either be this or the basic Forest you added.
Surgical - This card is a game winner against all the graveyard decks obviously and adds another trick against Miracles, but is also great against ANT. I've buried many storm players by shuffling their deck after they hide their two best cards with a Brainstorm, by ripping their Infernals or Tendrils out, or simply taking the tutor out of the yard in response to a Past in Flames. I board in 3 copies there in addition to the Flusterstorms which is where a lot of the extra value comes from. All that extra disruption with 4 Crops into Bog and 8 discard spells really swing that match-up into a good one. It has important applications against Lands and other loam decks as well.
Other suggestions:
Ponder - Haven't tried it. The blue is just a splash and I'm hesitant to stretch the mana too far. Additional cantrips/dig can't be bad if you feel you can make the mana work.
Chailce of the Void - I have been saying for a while that I need to test it and just haven't done that yet. My hesitation is mainly that this version is saturated with 1 drops and the main call for this is x=1. It still might be good enough though?
Stifle - Its a nice card, but is a little situational. Great against Terminus, laughs in your face if you have this and they have the Sword instead. Planning to Stifle the Storm trigger is a risky proposition with their discard. Outside of that, it has applications... but most of those aren't major concerns outside of Wasteland against which I prefer Needles.
Exploration - see above. Tried it and didn't love it, prefer Mox. Even tried 2 copies with Moxen at one point and that was overkill.
Toxic Deluge - Had it in the sideboard at one point. Was only ever useful against Death and Taxes. It didn't swing that match-up enough to warrant the slot imo.
Lotus Petal - Too all in for my tastes. Too many games require making 2 or 3 tokens to have even more cards that throw a card away (already have Mox)
Tabernacle - I can only think of a couple of games where having this would have won me a game, and they were both against TES where my turn 2 token wasn't fast enough to race their 12 turn 1 goblins on the play.
Maze - More of a space issue. I haven't tested it much to be honest.
Sylvan - the RG versions generally run this and just about everyone seems to love it. Great card that helps in the grindier match-ups like Miracles especially. I prefer to run Brainstorm in this slot for speed and other purposes (those discussions should be somewhere in the thread).
Negator: you can add a list that would play nowQuote:
Originally Posted by Negator77'
Miracles - total slow down since winning quickly isn't likely.. the baseline strategy is to board out all the moxes and brainstorms, a Gemstone Mine, and a map. Board in 4 needles, 2 Grips, Decay, 2 Extractions, and Ghost Quarter. It all depends on what you see and/or know about your opponents list. Ghost Quarter isn't needed if you know they aren't on Karakas. An extra Extraction is fine, as is some number of flusterstorms. My sanctioned results against this deck are now 27-27. Literal 50/50. Adding Libraries would be the first spot to go if you want to swing it past that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunfuzed
Shardless - is a very good match-up. Minimal sideboarding is required. Add the 2nd Decay as a catchall, a needle or two, and the Ghost Quarter. Remove a land, 2 mox, and a map to not walk face first into Decay.
Eldrazi - Needles are an unfortunate necessity against both versions even though they run chalices. Colorless runs 4 Wastelands and Karakas usually, the white versions run Karakas and Displacers. So Needles, Decay, Ghost Quarter, and Grip come in. Brainstorms, a map, Sejiri Steppe, and Bojuka Bog come out
Delver - Generally Brainstorms, a Map, and 1 discard spell come out. 4 Needles, a Decay, and Ghost Quarter go in.
Lands - Another slow down match. Brainstorms, a map, Decay, Gemstone Mine, and 2 other cards (Duress x2 on the draw for sure) come out. 4 Extractions, 4 Needles, and karakas come in.
The version I play online is:Quote:
Originally Posted by caprino
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=11921&d=268233&f=LE
Live tourneys I run:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19716&iddeck=150095
The biggest functional difference is the Karakas in the sideboard over the fourth Extraction for live tourneys. Online has significantly less Lands (due to port costing $750+ a playset there) and Sneak and Show type decks. I run into those routinely in the Northeast at live tourneys.
You explain the said in and said out you do against the tier decks as miracle, ant, white mono, bug, Delver, show and tell, etc. ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Negator77'
My brother just went undefeated at a GPT for Columbus. This means we both have our 2 byes, and we both got them using the same deck, which was undefeated in separate tournaments. This deck is the real deal. Here is the list he used...
Creatures- 8
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Vampire Hexmage
Other Spells- 30
4 Lotus Petal
2 Expedition Map
3 Into the North
4 Crop Rotation
4 Not of This World
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Sylvan Library
Lands- 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Bayou
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
His match ups were as follows-
Junk: 2-0
Storm: 2-0
Junk: 2-0
Brave Sir Robin: 2-0
Storm: 2-1
Junk: 2-1
Miracles: 2-0
After playing with and testing both the blue and g/b versions of the deck extensively we both feel strongly that this version of the deck is better. We mulligan much less often, we are faster, and we have less mana issues. Chalice of the void was insane and we will forever run 4 of them in the board. It won him his Miracles match up in the finals, and gave him game against both storm opponents. We are considering removing the maps as we both talked about it, and feel that we simply sideboard them out every game. We just don't know what they would be replaced with. The same goes for library, though I saw it do work in his final game...
What you put in place of the maps?Quote:
Originally Posted by -Spooky-
We don't know what would replace the maps. I am considering 2 Abrupt Decay in the main, but I don't know how good that would be. Main deck Pithing Needle is also an option.Quote:
Originally Posted by caprino
I wrote you a private messageQuote:
Originally Posted by -Spooky-
Congrats! I also just went undefeated and won a trial for Columbus yesterday just outside of Philly. It looks like a couple of different Depths builds will be there and enjoying the byes! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by -Spooky-
I would love a sideboard guide to get the chance. Also, not of this world is crazy good. I've caught opponents extremely off guard with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by -Spooky-
I have a soft spot for Ancient Stirrings, especially if you do find room for Needles. 1 CMC, dig 5 deep, grab a relevant land/Pithing Needle/Not of This World/Lotus Petal/Expedition Map/colorless SB choices, clear chaff from the top of your library.Quote:
Originally Posted by -Spooky-
I recently sent this to another member that requested it, but I can post it here. I'm not positive on everything listed here, so feedback would actually be appreciated from anyone who wants to give it. Either way, though, these are the choices I made during each match up that I came across recently. I can add to it with other decks as requested. If you have any questions on my reasoning behind each, please let me know!Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanthos
Quote:
I'll help you as best I can!
Miracles:
-2 Expedition Map
-3 Elvish Spirit Guide
-4 Crop Rotation
-1 Inquisition of Kozilek
--------------------------------
+4 Chalice of the Void
+3 Pithing Needle
+3 Abrupt Decay
ANT:
-1 Sejiri Step
-1 Ghost Quarter
-1 sylvan Library
-2 Expedition Map
-2 Not of the World (keep 2 in because they bring in Chain of Vapor)
-------------------------
+4 Chalice of the Void
+1 Bojuka Bog
+2 Surgical Extraction
RUG Delver:
Not entirely sure, I am have not practiced this match up. This may not be correct, but...
-4 Elvish Spirit Guide
-3 Crop Rotation
-2 Not of this World
-1 Sejiri Step
-1 Sylvan Library
-----------------------
+4 Chalice of the Void
+3 Pithing Needle
+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Maze of Ith
ELVES:
-4 Not of this World
-1 Expedition Map
-1 Sylvan Library
-1 Sejiri Step
---------------------
+4 Chalice of the Void
+3 Abrupt Decay
Shardless BUG:
Baleful Strix is actually their most disruptive card, so Sejiri Step (unblockable) is key in the match up.
-2 Expedition Map
-2 Elvish Spirit Guide
--------------------------
+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Maze of Ith
MUD:
-4 Not of This World
-2 Inquisition of Kozilek
-1 Sejiri Step
----------------------------
+3 Abrupt Decay
+3 Pithing Needle
+1 Maze of Ith
Death and Taxes:
-4 Elvish Spirit Guide
-2 Expedition Map
------------------------------------
+3 Abrupt Decay
+3 Pithing Needle
Sneak and Show:
-2 Not of this World (keep 2 in, they wil bring in bounce spells)
-2 Inquisition of Kozilek
-1 Elvish Spirit Guide
----------------------------
+3 Pithing Needle
+1 Karakas
+1 Maze of Ith
Omnitell:
-1 Sylvan Library
-1 Expedition Map
---------------------------------------
+2 Surgical Extraction
It's possible that you want to bring in Chalice of the Void against Omnitell, but I don't know for sure. I have not tested it enough.
Congrats to you as well! I hope to see you there so that we may discuss the deck. I also hope that we both CRUSH the tournament!Quote:
Originally Posted by Negator77'
Stirrings is interesting because it can dig for Not of This World. However, I feel like it is not a guarantee that it will find anything at all that we need, and so at this point I would just want map (I think). Also, I can definitely see myself siding it out just as much, if not more than map.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott
Negator it seems like you side out brainstorm in most of your matches. I'll be honest, I don't really understand this- without it there is no way to fix your hand / draw steps. Can you elaborate on this a little more? Also, lack of any basics in your list is...interesting. Since you are running 4 mox are you eschewing basics entirely?
Brainstorm - In post board games, the 60 cards in the deck should all be extremely relevant in the match-up. The increased density of good cards for each match-up in addition to cutting cards that are generally terrible in multiples like Mox Diamonds reduces the reliance on Brainstorm. In a lot of match-ups, it comes out just because its sub-par there. I don't want to be running Brainstorm against taxing effects, chalices, etc. In other cases, its a matter of space. I don't want to cut below 7 tutors basically ever (even that is low in my opinion) and the discard is mandatory in a lot of spots. So what do you cut in a match-up like D+T where Brainstorm is weak and you realistically want to side in up to 10 cards? It's not perfect and certainly makes the deck a little more high variance in certain match-ups, but I haven't found a better approach yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
No basics - It's a concession to basically wanting to never be unable to have BB on turn 2 and turn 3 while also wanting access to U and G on turn 1. I've been able to win around/through Blood Moon and Back to Basics type effects more often than not. The discard, quick combo, Mox Diamonds, and Decays/Grips post board all help fight those types of cards. If our opponents are using Wastelands on our colored sources, that is generally fantastic. The most annoying part is occasionally being locked out with Wastelands by Loam decks. A basic land is very high on my list of cards I'd like to squeeze into the deck and most people on here do run a basic or two.
Map is an inferior card to other choices like sylvan scrying UNLESS you have a weak manabase and struggle to get green mana. It cost 1 more than all other land tutors and can be destroyed / pithing needled. I've run as much dig as you in the past and most games were won with extra tutors in my hand. That tells me that the deck didn't need that much redundancy. So I cut back. and run fewer tutors. If you want an option other than expedition map I would probably just add 2 more sylvan library. Sylvan library is slower BUT there are very few games where I was able to successfully stick a sylvan library where I wished it was something else. It draws Immediate removal and forces your opponent to deal with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by -Spooky-
How did Shizo, Death's Storehouse work for you? In my testing sejiri steppe was just better or as good. The situation where a blocker needs to be evaded to win before the token gets removed comes up so infrequently that I prefer a 4th urbog to give myself the best chance to get extra mana from dark depths. Statistically a fourth urbog will benefit you more than a shizo because of the odds of their respective situations occurring.
Not to discredit your success with the deck but junk is probably the best matchup for the deck and shardless is a close second. Miracles has become less of a problem since the inclusion of chalice and abrupt decay. You had pretty good matches. Storm becomes more favorable when you increase speed. Depending on your meta, you might not run into D&T but when you do it's likely to WRECK you. There is no removal for creatures that stick. Abrupt decay hardly works because you'll likely need to target mother first. Aether vialed Flickerwisps deal with pithing needles and tokens and there are so many threats. NOTW is good if there isn't a thalia in play.
Mox diamond does help against blood moon type effects and B2B but its not ideal. Against decks with blood moon, you'll often run into ancient grudge and that's absolutely killer. Decks with B2B often run bounce to deal with token but it can target your moxes and really mess you up. Submerge isn't as big of an issue now that Treasure cruise delver decks are gone. Running basics, about 2 is ideal to be able to cast abrupt decay. Basics can be searched for but are ideal to run with fetchlands.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
Spooky - what were your matchups when you got your byes? I want to give your decklist a try, looks awesomely explosive. As we compare this version vs. Negator's, I think it really comes down to what is winning your close matchups and what is the reason when you lose a match.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
As I think through my losses thus far, they've been either:
1. D&T being generally abysmal. The two magical game wins I got were basically them not having any answers, or just 1 swords that I could Seize, and me just jamming the turn 3 win. NOTW and added speed along with the same # of discard spells is really good for that plan, which looks to me like the only way we can win the match. You have to go high variance in that matchup, it seems, since they have ~30 answers (Karakas, Wasteland, Swords, Mom + any Flier, Flickerwisp, Displacer, Batterskull, etc.), and they will draw better over a drawn-out game.
2. Delver/Infect when they just have one more Wasteland/Submerge/Stifle effects than I can answer. Again, this version has more answers and the same amount of disruption, so I could see that being beneficial.
3. Eldrazi just Reality Smashing face too fast. Speed is the only answer there.
4. Negator has mentioned Jund Lands being difficult given Exploration can make them faster in the beginning, and Waste/Karakas/Maze/Loam just locks it up in the late game. Speed seems like the right answer there, too.
5. I have somehow avoided the Miracles matchup, but this one seems like a tossup. Are the matches you win against Miracles because they answered 2 Marit Lages but you just had more tutors and got a third one that won it, or because they just don't find that first Terminus after you Seize their StP? As I think through my wins, very few seem to come from activating the combo multiple times, but I'd love to hear more opinions here.
However, as we all know, it can be difficult to remember the times when Brainstorm or that additional non-snow tutor was the reason you WON the game. The number of games I have used that last Sylvan Scrying / Expedition Map to main phase a Sejiri Steppe for the win is nonzero, and I'm sure Brainstorm/Fetch has won me games in ways that are not flashy enough to remember. For a 10+ round tournament, that may very well be the right answer.
Lastly, how has Into the North been for you? I love the ability to tutor for Bojuka Bog and Sejiri Steppe, but ItN obviously adds more explosiveness.
The only reasons that we have kept map so far are two-fold. First, It is a colorless land search, which means it helps us against blood moon and Back to basics, both of which are very common in our meta. Second, we played the brainstorm version for a bit and ended up not liking it. Part of the reason we didn't like it was that every time we had brainstorm, we just wished it was another land search. We decided that the pure redundancy is better than not having what we needed for the time being. We are still open to trying other things, but our thought process is simple, whatever we put in the deck in place of map has to be better than something that straight up search for whatever combo piece we need.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
Sheizo was fine. I used it maybe once during my GPT and I'm not sure how many times y brother used it, I'll have to ask him. We use both Sheizo and step, with the idea that usually they serve different purposes. A 4th urborg might be good, I guess we have not tested it, but I would worry about having extras clog my hand due to legendary rules.
It was my understanding for a while that Death and Taxes was our worst possible match up. It's not too common in my area, and I don't believe very common overall compared to delver variants and the like. Because of this, I've decided to just strengthen my match ups against other decks and accept a loss to it. In order for me to be able to do anything against them I would have to spend way too many sideboard slots that could be going towards other more common match ups. Things like Dread of Night are great in the D&T match up, but not anywhere else.
Junk actually seems kind of a rough match up to me. They have discard to slow you down, and wasteland plus swords to stop the combo. They attack us from three different angles, and it seems like if they have an opener with wasteland, you really have to start worrying about the clock they are going to put on you. This is just my experience, though. I'd have to ask my brother how he felt during the matches, since I was not present for all of them.
My match ups during the GPT that I played in were as follows...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunfuzed
Eldrazi- 2-1
Infect- 2-1
Enchantress- 2-1
Burn- 2-1
U/R Delver- Intentional Loss to get us both into top 8 (won the fun games though)
Eldrazi- 2-1
Burn in the finals 2-0
As mentioned above, I've basically handed the death and taxes match up to the gravedigger. Just like how other deck need to accept that they will never win against storm and just move on, I don't know if we will ever have a good match up against death and taxes without decimating our sideboards for it. I do plan on testing the match up extensively either way, but as of now I'm just accepting it as a loss and moving to improve my chances against other decks.
Against delver and infect I have yet to lose in a competitive environment, but I can see how we would. I saw my brother lose to RUG delver at a local last week, and it actually looked rough. Delvers can block, they have you on a clock at all times, they run wasteland and stifle, and their counter magic prevents you from being fast. The match up does look frustrating.
You are correct with eldrazi, you really just need to race them, and hope to god that if they have wasteland they kept a slow hand for it, or you have the needle to answer it.
I've never had a problem with jund lands, but It might be because i'm too fast for them? Admittedly, I've only played the match up a couple times, but I don't think it's that big of an issue for us. I just had to know how to win Thespians Stage games with them for the most part.
Miracles is all about them running out of steam. You will make 2-3 marits that die, and you need to be able to keep going. Sometimes they keep an iffy hand that you can just play through with one NOTW, but that's not common. Just jam the combo and force them to have it, and then rebuild with the time they give you. Your board is where the match up swings to your favor. Pithing Needle, Decay, and Chalice make things much easier.
Into the North has been amazing. I would not play a 4th, as it can only grab one part of the combo, but the fact that it puts that part into play is just nuts. It has won me many games based on the speed alone, and its awesome when players neglect to counter it because they forget that Dark Depths is a snow land. It happens. Overall, though, the card is just great for the speed it gives us. It won me my eldrazi games for sure. Also, it's not like we are substituting any other tutors for it. We play the full rotations, scryings, and a couple maps all alongside it.