Point taken. Though how can StP be justified in a CotV deck? Seems like a nonbo.Quote:
Originally Posted by iostream
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Point taken. Though how can StP be justified in a CotV deck? Seems like a nonbo.Quote:
Originally Posted by iostream
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One typically only sides in StP when Chalice comes out - for instance, versus fair creature decks like D+T or various BGx midrange strategies.Quote:
Originally Posted by TTX
Me too - but i also use it vs any BGx deck, even Delver stuff because they tend to have a higher cc curve and playset answer (decay) for chalice too. For me 3 Swords are fine IF you have other removal options. I like 2 Blessed Alliance, because it is not only to answer Marit or TNN (the merfolk needs an answer and it is not good to rely on copter), it is also good vs burn (maybe not common but every big tournament will have them - i faced two at my last 10 rounder) and with mana ramp you can often activate two modes. I also use it against grixis delver, chalice+swords aren't hot enough so i dont bring in swords here. But facing a delver that was cast before your chalice or a big zombie fish (big gofy, smasher etc.) can be hard - Blessed Alliance can shine here and will be better if the game goes on and you have more mana/options.Quote:
Originally Posted by iostream
I currently have 3 Swords, 2 Blessed Alliance (and 2 Pontiff - but that can be anything else and isnt common). From my experrience games can be swingy if your opponent managed to stabilze on the field and starts to counterattack (Delver/Angler/Gofy/BSkull etc.). Against Reanimator they typically search Grisel and if they cast it via Reanimate they can't draw 7-14 cards easily. I would also board B.Alliance here - it will also shine against other fatties (besides Grave Titan) if they can't entomb the best creature. I think if you don't like Blessed Alliance you need other stuff or go with Stoneforge + Equip (Swords with Protection) to have some outs against all the nasty creatures around.
I'm currently playing 4 StP, 1 Blessed Alliance, and 2 Holy Light as my SB removal right now.
I think Blessed Alliance can be really strong, but it's a bit clunky so I wouldn't bet your whole gameplan on it.
The Holy Lights are mainly there for Elves and Grixis/TNN-based strategies, but they can also be good against less popular decks like Goblins or TES/Belcher.
StP is still the best removal, despite the nonbo with Chalice.
Has anyone considered Cast Out in our removal suite? It's never truly "dead", and our deck can get to 4 rather easily.
I ask because I was playing it in a janky Astral Slide build this week and was very happy whenever I drew it. It is a clean answer to Jace and is especially great vs Sneak & Show. Instant speed means it can also snipe Batterskull flashed in by SFM. 4 mana also dodges abrupt decay. I might swap out some combination of removal/disenchant to test it out.
yes, Cast Out has been solid since its preview. Definitly playable in every control, high mana, deck.
It just doesn't get rid of Emrakul and TNN differently from Judgement
It can remove Emrakul. She only has protection from coloured spells, what targets from Cast Out is a white triggered ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
ftfyQuote:
Originally Posted by whitefaces
No, what I wrote was right. Cast Out enters the battlefield and has a triggered ability, which can target Emrakul.
You are correct. This is why I like Palace Jailer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
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Got my ass handed to me today at a 1k. My luck this week has been awful. I went 2-2 , 1-2 drop, AAAANNND 1-4. Bringing me to 75-26.... If this continues i'll make some changes . I think i'm gunna go up to 3 Karakas in the 75 as lands is been getting more popular and has been giving me fits.
Congrats to iostream for top 8ing the same 1k today.
Thanks! I actually managed to win my t8 match against Storm and then lost in t4 to a novel UWR Blood Moon control deck. I made some misplays in game 3, chief among which was cycling both of my Forsake the Worldlys too hastily and getting stranded with a crucial TKS in hand against a topdecked Blood Moon. Moon is not really backbreaking against us, but being down a card when you didn't have to be is always a big problem.
I ran back the same 75 as last time (link here)
I like most of the changes that I've made to the deck, as I've come to view the white cards as just patching certain strategic weakness of the Colorless Eldrazi shell. That is, the basic gameplan is the same as Colorless Eldrazi - deploy a few high-impact disruptive cards and then just go kill your opponent. The white cards are just there to provide additional options for disruption. Eldrazi Displacer, Thalia 1.0, and Thalia 2.0 (alongside Chalice and TKS) are all specific disruptive effects that can singlehandedly win the matchups in which they are at their best. Endless One and Walking Ballista (alongside Reality Smasher) are the best aggressive cards available; here the white splash doesn't help, so you just play what Colorless Eldrazi plays, except for the very expensive Eldrazi like Endbringer which cannot be cast in a manabase that has 0 Eye of Ugin. From my experience, Stoneforge Mystic and Phyrexian Revoker are neither disruptive enough nor aggressive enough to deserve slots.
Specific comments: I'm really high on Endless One, and I think one should probably nix the 4th Ballista for the 4th Endless One. I know Endless One doesn't look like much, but it fills out the curve perfectly and instantly stabilizes unfavorable boardstates provided your mana is working out at all. Key to the City was pretty crappy today, and I think it should just be the 3rd StP. I think Forsake the Worldly is better than Disenchant, the extra 1 mana just didn't matter. I wonder if I'm supposed to find space for the 4th Reality Smasher.
Nice finish iostream. I've been testing out endless ones also, but I was hesitant to post my list here since it's probably closer to white eldrazi.
I'm not liking Thalia stompy in the new meta tbh. Miracles was the reason to play chalice and smasher. Turn 1 chalice is still good, but things have sped up a considerable amount and getting to 5 mana doesn't always happen. Our elves matchup is bad, and grixis (which seems to be every other deck I play) is an even to unfavorable matchup depending if they run stifles.
I've also had a difficult time against lands recently, even though on. Paper the matchup seems heavily in our favor. That deck is just too OP sometimes...
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Endless One
4 Reality Smasher
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Eldrazi Mimic
2 Oblivion Sower
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
5 Plains
3 Eye of Ugin
Sideboard
2 All is Dust
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Forsake the Worldly
2 Rest in Peace
2 Warping Wail
3 Wasteland
The correct way to phrase it would have been that you don't like your version of Thalia Stompy in the new meta. If Miracles was the reason to play Smasher than maybe with Miracles gone a list with less of a focus on Smasher in specific and Eldrazi in general will be better for the new meta than the heavy Eldrazi list you have posted. Take for example the Elves matchup. Yes your list has a terrible matchup against Elves. But you run 0 Jitte and your sweepers cost 7 mana. Those are easy ways to improve the matchup. Playing stuff like Holy Light or Pontiff does not only improve the matchup against Elves but also against Grixis if you are facing Pyromancer or TNN.Quote:
Originally Posted by contra
I've played many different iterations of the deck and I maintain that Thalia stompy isn't great in the new meta. This is precisely why I'm trying new things. I believe that a more eldrazi-centric list is better against grixis - which is no doubt the new dtb. Case and point - look at the eldrazi stompy thread SB guide - they literally make no SB substitutions for the grixis matchup because it's so good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sisyphos
Pontiff is hard to cast w/ only 4 caverns 4 diamonds, and holy-light hits your revokers which you want to keep in vs elves. Dealing w/ TNN and swarm is tough for colorless & white which is another reason Thalia stompy isn't great in the current meta. I'd advocate a black splash, but that opens us up to mana disruption.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sisyphos
Jitte is good no doubt. But the list I suggested is running 14 sol lands that can help cast the eldrazi AiDs. Jitte requires 4, sometimes 5 mana, as well as a creature connecting which isn't likely to happen vs elves w/ all their bounce shenanigans. Elves is a hard matchup for Aggro decks trying to play fair. Our premier creature displacer does very little and is often too slow when we're being comboed out on T2. That matchup really comes down to us getting a chalice on 1, anther piece of disruption in THC or containment, and on top of that a decent clock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sisyphos
I disagree - Elves should be a good matchups - if - you pack the right cards and dont try to be a "colorless eldrazi version with a little white splash". Elves aren't attacked with more "stupid" Beaters, because they can easily outcombo you before you race them and block&stall you to oblivion if needed (and i am an elves player too - i knew how to grind out fair games). Key cards we can maindeck: Chalice, Thalia 2.0, C.Priest, Jitte, Revoker, Smasher and even uncommon stuff like A.Mindcensor and WWail.
Best card so far is Thalia 2.0, elves have only 2 forests, fetch-to cradle that enters tapped are really bad, even tapped Arbors disable the blocking&stall game with Q.Ranger to some degree. Hoof can't attack after NO and you disable the swarm theme with Thalia too. Chalice&C.Priest means more or less a hardlock in most cases (outs: hardcast hoof or sage) Smasher breaks most stalled fields etc.
Key is - no lockpiece will win a game alone (a reason why dnt more or less cant win the matchup, because dnt also lacks speed - and we can have speed/ramp) - so you need a critical amount of lockpieces, enough speed to deploy them fast enough and on top aggressiv beaters because every hate will stay only for time x, you can't durdle around with 2/2 bears (have i talked about the dnt vs elves match^^). Thalia Stompy have all the tools to have a good elves matchup. Tools like C.Priests will help vs a lot more decks/situations. Bonus point: Elves have no Decay main and your matchup greatly improves if you have hate like Priest/Mindcensor at main and win game 1.
Pontiff is also a no brainer vs elves, but the matchup is more than winable without this card.
--------
Grixis is another story, i can see that endless one - or better ballista - helps to gain more wins here.
On top of all that Thalia 2.0 stops a glimpse chain which really slows them down.
I know for a fact that Ballista is a high-impact card against Grixis from playtesting, and I'm hopeful that Ballista should do quite a lot against Elves. The Elves that matter the most are Wirewood Symbiote and Quirion Ranger; Ballista is a maindeckable way to turn them off with upside potential to pick off other things. I think it might do the job of Phyrexian Revoker in this matchup a little better than Revoker itself. I'll try to test this matchup a bit when I next find the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by MD.Ghost
I have been testing this for the last few weeks and tweaked it a little here and there.
We held a small tournament today (12 people) and I did rather well finishing in 2nd place.
I was the only X-0 at the end of the swiss. We cut to top 4 after 4 rounds.
We had a nice meta including Lands, Grixis Delver, 2 Sneak and Show decks , Reanimator, 4C Control, DnT, and others.
Round 1: BR Reanimator 2-1
I took game one on the play with Chalice as my opening play followed up by a Displacer riding it to victory. He had the nuts game two. Ended up locking him out game 3 as well with Displacer and Revoker
Round 2: Burn 2-0
On the draw both games. Game One went T1 Chalice on 1, T2 Chalice on 2, T3 Batterskull. Game Two I led with Thalia 1.0 and followed up Thought-Knot and Smasher.
Round 3: Janky Mud list with Thought-Knoughts, Forgemasters and Chalices in the board? 2-1
Game One I was beat by turn two Thought-Knot followed up with lots of things on the board. Game 2 I had a solid T2 Thought-Knot into Smasher to close it out quickly. Game 2 I mulled to 5 with garbage, but did not see a 4 getting any better. I Swords his T2 Forgemaster, to which he had no follow up. I was stuck on 3 lands but found all of the right lock pieces and filled the board up with small guys.
Round 4: Lands
The game one against lands is rough. Like really bad in my opinon. The boarded games are much better and I had quick threats followed up by answers on Games Two and Three. Thalia 2.0 is a house, and displacers is a great threat with open mana against their combo.
Semi-Finals: Storm 2-0
Lost the die roll and was Therapied out of my 2 Chalices in my opener. Still drew into all of my land drops to race and lock him out as his opener wasnt super great. Game Two my opening 7 was Mox Diamond, 2x Ancient Tomb, Thalia 1.0, Thorn, Surgical, Revoker. I honestly couldnt lose. He Therapied naming Chalice again, missed, and I quickly locked it up.
Finals: Played against the janky Mud list again 1-2
Game One I had the business with T2 TKS into T3 Smasher. Games Two he Revokered my Mox Diamond and I couldnt find a 4th mana before getting locked out. Game Three he had a T2 Thought-Knot with Lightning Greaves and I couldnt find white mana after stabilizing.
Overall I was very happy with the decks performance.
Here was the list I ran:
Creature (27)
2x Containment Priest
4x Eldrazi Displacer
4x Reality Smasher
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4x Thought-Knot Seer
2x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Phyrexian Revoker
Artifact (9)
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Mox Diamond
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull
Land (25)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Wasteland
3x Cavern of Souls
2x City of Traitors
4x Eldrazi Temple
3x Karakas
5x Plains
Sideboard (15)
3x Swords to Plowshares
1x Containment Priest
2x Disenchant
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Rest in Peace
2x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Blessed Alliance
2x Holy Light
I tested without the Stoneforges and used 2 Ballistas with a second Jitte. I did not enjoy them and never found them powerful or great in the long grinding games. I found the Stonforge package to be much better when behind or against the delver matchup, so I went back to it.
I cant wait to play this at Vegas
Congrats Kratos. I think the deck is very well positioned in the meta right now.
I played at SCG Louisville this weekend
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Mox Diamond
2 Smuggler's Copter
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Palace Jailer
1 Aven Mindcensor
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
3 Wasteland
4 Plains
1 Eiganjo Castle
// 15 Sideboard
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Palace Jailer
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 4 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Armageddon
The deck was great, the players were great. I'm so glad I got to play this deck before a long MtG hiatus. It caught so many people off-guard, no one had seen it, or knew what to do.
It's really funny, in this deck, I always draw the right amount of sideboard cards. Pretty unusual for me. Copter is amazing.
Legacy Challenge on Saturday 4-0
2-0 vs. Elves (both Thalias, Smashers finish it quickly, Ethersworn Canonist and Containment Priest are brutal).
2-1 vs. Hightide (He FoW a game ending Smasher then combos out in game 1. Game 2 and 3, little Thalia and CotV are silver bullets.
2-0 vs. BUG Delver (A Copter crewed by a Revoker which neutered a DRS deals 18 damage game 1. Amazing. Both Thalias wreck this deck).
2-1 vs. RG Lands (He got turn 4 20/20 after double topdecking Ghost Quarters to handle my Karakas. Game 2 I maintain control with CotV = 0 and RiP. Both Thalias again are super powerful. Palace Jailer is great in this matchup if you can get it down. Just generates a ton of advantage. Game 3 I get 3 Chalices at 0, 1, and 2 alongside 2 Displacers and Karakas. His Marit Lage ain't never sticking. Smasher finishes quickly after timely Wastelands sac his Mazes.
Legacy Classic on Sunday 5-3
2-1 vs. Burn
Turn 1 on the play I lay little Thalia in the Cavern with a Mox. He plays a Mountain, and I know that I'm in luck, followed up with Copter then double Smasher.
Game 2 he has double Searing Blood to deal with my Thalia sisters and then ends it with PoP and FBlast. Game three on the play he can't keep up with TKS and Copter.
2-0 vs. Death and Taxes
Turn 1 on the play with CotV X=1. Followed by big Thalia, leads to scoop shortly. Game 2 he Wastelands me but then PtE my Revoker, nullifying the potential tempo gain. I follow it up with more TKS, Jitte, and Smasher.
1-2 vs. Colorless Eldrazi
Kept a very sloppy opener and suffer dearly. Game 2 I get an early Big Thalia and he can't keep up when paired with Displacer. Game 3 is like game 1, very sloppy keep on my part that gets shredded by TKS on top of Mimics and Reshapers for quick damage.
1-2 vs. Death and Taxes
Young kid, very competent, he made several play mistakes but it didn't matter as I was drawing poorly and mildly tilted from miskeeping the round prior. Good rumble. His Palace Jailer came down earlier than mine, and I could never get the monarch and drowned under card advantage.
0-2 vs. BUG True Name
Pretty poorly missplayed by holding a Mindcensor when I should have cast. He puts up long defenses with TNN. Game 2 he does the same by putting up a wall of defense then ultimates Jace.
2-1 vs. Grixis Delver
Big Thalia wrecks this deck. Copter is amazing against Delver, so is Displacer. Smasher finishes very quickly.
2-0 vs. Manaless Dredge
Both Thalia's stop this deck in it's tracks. I Revoke his Phantasmagorian and game 2 I draw a turn 6 RiP with both Thalia's in play and he scoops.
2-0 vs. Colorless Eldrazi
Palace Jailer crews Copter, Displacer blinks Jailer, Jailer eats opponent's creature, they take 6 damage increments while I draw 3 cards and discard 1 per turn. Big Thalia prevents him from ever accelerating.
Deck is strong. I'd say the weakest matchup is Death and Taxes. I practiced a lot in paper against my friend play Elves. He usually gets crushed by the deck, pre and post board.
Congrats guys, seems some off you do well even at the "new world" meta (and yes i think this deck should do well enough even without miracles).
It seems we still have some different directions: some play sfm, some play copter, some have maindeck c.priest, some try some more aggressiv lists etc. I feel it settles down to personal preference, playstyle and obviously local meta.
I currently test some other decks but i liked the "new" idea of iostream with more aggressiv beaters (have played all of the above directions in the past).
I adjusted his latest list with some personal options:
// 60 Maindeck
// 9 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
2 Umezawa's Jitte
// 26 Creature
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Endless One
3 Reality Smasher
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Palace Jailer
3 Walking Ballista
// 25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
5 Plains
4 Wasteland
// 15 Sideboard
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst//Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Orzhov Pontiff//Holy Light etc.
SB: 2 Rest in Peace//Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Blessed Alliance
SB: 3 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Disenchant//Forsake the Worldly//Cast Out
I finally cutted copters because with Ballista and Endless one you have enough colorless manasink and t1 opener and i don't want to crew a copter with high Power creatures. I decided to also go with 2 Palace Jailer, because they can still be great and together with Displacer and Ballista you get some nice amount of maindeck removal that can a) beat, b) combo and c) provides manasink. Ballista really helps Displacer/Jailer to aim the bigger for bigger targets, add in Jitte and you have some impact against creature decks.
Without Revoker some combo matchups suffer, but we can also argue that more beaters can race the opponent and against elves ballista feels stronger than Revoker and overall the deck is stil very solid vs combo decks. Ballista will improves the Grixis and DnT Matchup and i really like that direction.
Sideboard is my basic version, i miss enough playtesting with this different build to evaluate the SB slots - it maybe to much removal etc.
Has anyone tested Ajani Steadfast? (No joke^^) cc4 and 3W seems right, all of his abilities are usefull and should help to keep up the pressure, break stalled fields or stabilize at life his biggest downside is that he is useless alone (Copter, Jitte etc.) i thought about him as a take up iostream list.
Thanks Ghost and TTX!
I have a love hate relationship with the deck in that it has those fringe spots. But its nice that it can flexible depending on the meta.
I like Containment Priest for better game ones against some of the bigger contenders that can run over the deck with cheating in creatures. Its also fantastic with Displacer out in the long games.
I actually love copter, but I just cant find the room or it, as well as Jailer.
The sideboard package is also great. Multiple cards are able to come if for a variety of matchups. Most of my opponents became wide-eyed as I would have 5-7 cards to board in when the deck was already very strong.
I also want to thank everyone in this thread so far for all of the helpful insight and data thats been shared.
Haven't had much success in the new meta..Went 2-2 and 0-2 drop last week.UGH, serious retooling/rethinking happening now...
Looking at the last Starcitygames classic results you’d think the format was wide open, with 14 different decks in top 16(!)
But don’t be fooled... it’s more of the same - delver domination now featuring deathrite.
Even though grixis appears to be on top, I’d simply attribute this to the amount of people playing it.
I’m pretty sure BUG is the best deck in the format, with 4 fatal push in the 75.
I think Thalia Stompy’s best look is just the standard build:
// 25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
1 City of Traitors
5 Plains
4 Wasteland
// 24 Creature
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Reality Smasher
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Stoneforge Mystic
// 10 Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Dismember
// 15 Sideboard
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Containment Priest
3 Rest in Peace
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Forsake the Worldly
2 Blessed Alliance
While the above list is just the aggregate of the decks which have placed in different event, I still think the deck has a ton of flex spots. Just to prove this point I've put together a short list of cards which are considered playable in this deck. I kinda sorted them by best-worst. Let me know if you think I've missed any.
// Creatures
Palace Jailer
Ethersworn Canonist
Aven Mindcensor
Vryn Wingmare
Walking Ballista
Orzhov Pontiff
Endless One
Selfless Squire
Eidolon of Rhetoric
Vizier of Deferment
Sanctum Prelate
Spirit of the Labyrinth
Mangara of Corondor
Lodestone Golem
Stonecloaker
Blade Splicer
Hero of Bladehold
Phyrexian Metamorph
Spellskite
Faerie Macabre
Mirran Crusader
Leonin Arbiter
Restoration Angel
War Priest of Thune
Glowrider
// Artifacts
Smuggler's Copter
Ratchet Bomb
Trinisphere
Sphere of Resistance
Pithing Needle
Crucible of Worlds
Tsabo's Web
Winter Orb
Coercive Portal
// Instants & Sorceries
Holy Light
Disenchant
Path to Exile
Warping Wail
Mindbreak Trap
Spatial Contortion
Council's Judgment
Armageddon
Cataclysm
Declaration in Stone
Austere Command
// Enchantments
Leyline of the Void
Seal of Cleansing
Leyline of Sanctity
Suppression Field
Cast Out
Oblivion Ring
Ghostly Prison
// Planeswalkers
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Gideon of the Trials
I think you may be correct. I'm Playing at the Beaded Dragon win a mox this weekend and spent 2 days coming up with what i think is the best list for the expected meta and my list was 3 cards off from yours, even had the one Dismember . I'm trying Stoneforge mystic because i think in a creature heavy meta Stoneforge shines .Quote:
Originally Posted by contra
One card i won't be playing this weekend is Rest in peace. I'm playing 3 faerie macabre . My reasoning is that B/R Reanimator can be to fast for Rest in peace and for dredge i will have 3 containment priest post board and that combined with revoker and 3 faerie should be enough to stop them and containment priest is great against SnS and B/R Reanimator and elves.
I think if you're worried about reanimator/dredge you should drop the faeries and a priest and just run with 4 leylines. Faerie is just too narrow. I'd even run surgical next to chalice before faerie. I don't worry about those turn 0 wins as their few and far between and you'll hurt your other MU too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by metronome2charisma
RIP is better against BUG and storm + we've already got a good game against gy decks with chalice, Thalia, karakas, revoker etc.
I think Faerie is fine. It's not as good against things like Loam or Punishing Fire as Surgical is, but I think it's close enough since we close out the game reasonably quickly fast. I've tried Leyline before and this deck really doesn't want to have to mulligan to it precisely because we have so many other tools, as you mention.Quote:
Originally Posted by contra
New versions of dragon stompy are running 3-4 copies of ensnaring bridge next to multiple bloodmoons/magus', chandras, and fiery confluence which makes the matchup super scary for us. I think running additional artifact hate in forsake the worldly is useful in a lot of the matchup we have trouble with. I'm also really liking thc in the new meta.
// 25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
1 City of Traitors
5 Plains
4 Wasteland
// 24 Creature
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Reality Smasher
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Stoneforge Mystic
// 10 Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Dismember
// 15 Sideboard
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Containment Priest
2 Rest in Peace
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Forsake the Worldly
2 Blessed Alliance
I think the correct response to a matchup with that much potent hate against us is probably to concede. There's no way one extra Forsake the Worldly is going to turn that matchup around. Legacy is big, and sometimes you have to dodge!Quote:
Originally Posted by contra
I have to agree with you here. The matchup is nearly unwinable, and I don't plan on diluting my board to still lose to this.Quote:
Originally Posted by iostream
I played several games against it and its hard to race before they get an ensnaring bridge out. They almost always have a turn one moon effect witch shuts out your top end. I only one one game. He locked me out with 1 life left, and I put a chalice on 4 and he had no win conditions that could be played after that. I had more cards in my library so he decked himself first.
Dragon Stompy makes a case for walking ballista to be in the 60, but i feel like stoneforge is better vs all of the matchups you have a realist chance at winning against.
I heavily disagree in case of dragon stompy - i won nearly all matchups against it with Thalia Stompy (and BigEldrazi) because (both) decks can ignore moon to some degree. For Thalia Stompy you will need a min. amount of 5 plains and 3 mox - but keep in mind that you can also lay down stuff turn 1/2 before your opponent is able to put down a moon (they not always start the game and put moon down first turn). All your creatures should be able to put down more pressure against dragon stompy creatures because you either have first strike or bigger creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by kratos
Hidding behind a bridge is more or less the same like good old moat etc - you need answers for it or you must accept to die against that hate stuff. So you can add more artifact hate or (my solution) use some stuff that can ignore bridge to some degree.
My latest build (30 testmatchups so far ~70%wins)
// 60 Maindeck
// 9 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
2 Umezawa's Jitte
// 26 Creature
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Reality Smasher
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Walking Ballista
2 Containment Priest
2 Palace Jailer
// 25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
5 Plains
4 Wasteland
// 15 Sideboard
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Orzhov Pontiff
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 2 Blessed Alliance
SB: 3 Swords to Plowshares
I experiemented a lot and always try to find some ways to put in fringe stuff like triskelion, selfless squire, ajani steadfast or proven solutions like stoneforge etc. but overall i like clean solutions, no one offs - and even the "2" off cards needs to overlap with other cards (like RiP and Priest) so they add up in numbers.
Biggest change for me is Walking Ballista - i clearly underestimated the card for this deck because i wished for a card like triskelion/jailer to enable abuse with Displacer but now i have tested Ballista enough and go from 2 to 3 and now to 4 - for me the card feels perfect for this deck because if you look back we always had a low amount of maindeck removal and all the sideboard cards are spell based which means we had to reduce creatures which means less threats and this deck will simply lose if you can't keep up the pressure (traditional weakness without cantrips/card filtering etc.).
As you can see i cutted the reworkers for it, because without miracles you don't have enough good blind calls, yes you might find enough targets but naming stuff like Deathrite, SfM etc will always result into the situation that you reworker can't attack too. Ballista can be cast turn 1 (with solland/mox) as a 1/1 so you have something to put on the field (and with a playset you don't need to hold back with it), it can be bigger if the game goes on in both ways, either if you hardcast it or if it is on already on the battlefield so its never a bad topdeck. You can respond to removal with it, can shoot down Walkers too and close games with it with pseudo-haste-shoot or fire over walls like TNN/Bridge the last points of damage. We are in legacy so most utility creatures are X/1 which is the reason the format also likes -1/-1 or lavamancer pingers etc. Bonus points, it will work under Blood Moon too (see Dragon Stompy). At my testgames i had numeros games which i was able to 2:1 with it (trading against two unflipped delvers is more or less "GG" etc.), going ballista into ballista is also hard for most creature based decks. For me it greatly improves the grixis delver matchup, but it also has some huge bonus against DnT, Elves etc. It will also ensure that stuff like Displacer, Jailer and Sideboard-Spell-Removal will be a better, because you can hit other important (bigger) targets with it. If you look at my list above you will see a high amount of creatures and removal options compared to other list that will improve some Game 1 situations against creature decks and still can do some work against nearly creaturless-decks/situations.
Yes you can still change the numbers, add a 4th Smasher, cut Priest for Stoneforge etc. but overall for my playstyle and my testmatchups this config worked fine, cause i still try to balance the cc across the board, which means if i run 4 Smasher i dont want other cc4-5 like Jailer, CPriest as a cc2 also is good and still works as a surprise flash-body (and improves G1 against Elves, Reanimate, Sneak&Show etc.).
@Boarding against Dragon Stompy with the list above:
-4 Chalice, -3 Smasher, -2 C.Priest
+2 Thorn, +3 Swords, +2 Revoker, +2 Disenchant
(if you aren't fear bridge you can take a risky approach and keep some smasher copies)
Smasher is dead once they land moon (or Bridge), same is true for TKS but casting wise TKS is in most cases one turn faster and a T2 TKS maybe still is fast enough to come down before Moon and offers not only nice disruption (can also catch bridge) a 4/4 body is also not bad vs Dragon Stompy. Swords is here to counter fast Magus etc. Besides TKS all Creatures are castable under moon if you also get white mana. I tend to save Disenchant for a critical Bridge. Thorn+Thalia can also make it hard for your opponent to cast stuff because they have more non-creature spells including cc3-4 stuff and weaker mana base (less lands, more all in moves with spirit guide etc.). Revoker is here against Chandra and overall another colorless body.
Well after starting out 3-1 i ended up 3-3 . I was "in the zone" for the first 3 rounds (one of which i lost) and then i started to get a headache (i'm a migraine sufferer )and my results suffered. On the plus side it didn't turn into a "2 day long ,can't get out of bed or open my eyes headache" so that was GREAT. I took a chance and ran hero of blade hold yesterday and it was great,both times i cast it it killed my opponent . All my matches were really close games except for storm. I played against
b/r reanimator 2-1 Game three my opener is Displacer x2, Faerie macabre x2 ,city of traitors, Chalice,cavern of souls . I snap keep.
dark maverick 2-1
esper deathblade 1-2
storm 2-0
bug delver 1-2
bug control 1-2
This is the list ill be testing for the next couple weeks . i upped the white sources by adding a Caves of kilos to help support the 2 Hero and the 2 pontiff out of the board. I know Hero seems strange but he's just another must answer threat, on par with Reality smasher and Hero doesn't die to abrupt decay or bolt and Fatal push has to be "turned on". For what its worth i LOVED this list.
10 artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
4 lotus petal
2 Umezawa's Jitte
25 Creature
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Walking Ballista
2 phyrexian revoker
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 hero of blade hold
1 Containment Priest
25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
5 Plains
2 Wasteland
1 caves of koilos
15 Sideboard
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Disenchant
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 ratchet bomb
3 faerie macabre
1 containment priest
Thanks for the notes, metronome! The list is interesting, but I have one concern: is Orzhov Pontiff castable with Petals instead of Diamonds?
I also 3-3'd that tournament, but I have nothing really interesting to say about it; my deck crapped out in some matches, I misplayed a bit, not really the deck's fault.
But looking at my tournament notebook over the last month or so, it seems like we might want to rethink the "standard composition" of the deck a bit since the metagame really has shifted dramatically since Top's banning. When you think about how dramatically decks like D+T and Dragon Stompy (which share certain features with Thalia Stompy) have been evolving in recent weeks, it kind of makes you wonder whether or not we are falling behind somehow. It could be the basic skeleton of the deck is already refined, or it could be that we really ought to be testing bigger changes.
Specifically: Legacy, at least in the mid-Atlantic USA, seems to me like it's becoming "polarized" between very fast unfair decks like BR Reanimator and very grindy fair decks like Portent Miracles. How does this affect us? I can think of at least three things we'd like to consider.
1) Thalia, Heretic Cathar seems like it is becoming worse and worse positioned. Is she still good enough? Very fast unfair decks either don't care about big Thalia or can get underneath her. Very grindy fair decks overload on cheap control elements, so you can't easily cash in the tempo gain from big Thalia. Portent Miracles is a great example of a deck of the second type; in addition to running a pile of Swords and Terminuses, they don't play many nonbasic lands or creatures to begin with! I think you still want some of this effect somewhere since it really is one of your best tools against Grixis Delver and Elves, but by and large she seems less relevant than in the past.
2) Very fast unfair decks don't run Wasteland. Very grindy fair decks often don't run Wasteland. Which makes one wonder: if there is really less Wasteland floating around, should we be greedier? Examples of greedier choices: playing more unstable mana bases with more City of Traitors/Lotus Petal, playing "bigger" with cards like Endbringer, playing splash colors to access more flexible options, and so on. 2 and 3-color versions of D+T are doing exactly this, and I think this is one reason why it's not stupid to consider.
(aside: Maybe Lotus Petal specifically is better now even if you don't want to be greedy. Since people seem to be converging around Ballista, there are just fewer white cards in the deck, so we might not need the stability that Mox Diamond provides?)
3) Is Ethersworn Canonist maindeckable now? Abstractly it seems like a better positioned tax nowadays than Containment Priest in a "polarized" metagame. It obviously screws over the fast combo decks more or less uniformly, but imagine how Portent Miracles or Czech Pile must feel playing against it...
Its crazy that i've been thinking about the exact same things. i'll elaborate more tonight.Quote:
Originally Posted by iostream
1) As you may have noticed i went down to 2 Thalia 2.0 . My main reasoning being that i noticed it did little if i was behind and was getting stuck in my hand because i would have multiples or would get bounced with my opponents Karakas. it is really good in a bunch of match ups if you're ahead or on the play but other wise was just SLIGHTLY underperforming. I can't see me not playing it but then again who knows.
2)i have been thinking about running 2 wasteland and another caves (to help cast that pontiff out of the board) and 2 factories but with so much delver and lands n the format i am having a hard time pulling the trigger. it would also help to cast those bigger creatures you mentioned Endbringer specifically . i'm not sure how good oblivion sower would be but it is very powerful.( i know you didn't mention sower i was just thinking out loud)
As far as splashing colors goes the options are nearly endless as long as we're playing 4 ancient tomb 1 city and 3-4 temples the rest of the mana base is pretty flexible One thing I've been thinking of trying out is something with 4 lodestones 2-3 canonist because they slow down EVERYTHING and instead of 4 smasher maybe go 2-3 hero of bladehold
The reason i like hero and lodestone together is because lodestone taxes EVERYTHING so it pretty good against delver ,combo and most creature decks while Hero cost 4 mana instead of 5 ( yes i understand that temple helps cast smasher) and when attacking alone over 2 turns only does 3 less damage than smasher and after 3 turns does 2 more, but when attacking with any other creatures is insane, not to mention dodges most common removal other than STP, just another way to "get em dead".
3) As i mentioned above i agree that Cononist is maindeckable rite now. I would miss the interaction of displacer and priest but i definitely think your head is in the rite place.
This is just random rambling.
I can definitely see Canonist in the main, but do love the Priests. It really helps with the show and tell matchup, reanimator and dredge, where as I feel that the storm matchup is already really favorable for us. However Canonist would add to the elves matchup.
I played in a small 23 person tournament this past weekend and lost in the semi-finals taking 3/4th. I used the same 75 as previously posted.
Round 1: Bye - was fine with this but looking to test.
Round 2: Sneak and Show 2-0
Played T1 Karakas into T2 little Thalia into T3 Revoker naming Griselbrand and scooped. Game 2 he stalled me for a bit with Blood moon on T2. Found the disenchant to get colorless and displace his Griselbrand to swing in for the win.
Round 3: Lands 2-1
Still a super rough match. Won a grindy game one and misplayed game two. Ended up pulling off the game 3 by just a turn.
Round 4: Lands.. again.. 1-2
Game one he had the double punishing fire with groves and I drew lands for 7 turns. Ripped a Smasher off the top and he wasted my Karakas. Forgot to play the other in my hand before swinging in and he made the token. Drew another smasher for what would have been the win had my first one survived. Game 2 I mulled to 5 and pulled off the win. Game 3 he had an early engine with double wasteland on loop and couldnt find lands to stabilize.
Round 5: Portent Miracles 2-0
This matchup was really won on the back of Cavern. Non of my creatures could be countered and he really couldnt feed his Mentor.
Both games went very smooth but were long and involded heavy decision making.
Cut to top 4 because the store had no idea what they were doing, and upset quite a few players.
Semi-finals: Infect 0-2
I mulled both games. Game 1 I was on the draw and he had the near nuts opener and I was dead on his 3rd turn.
Game 2 I lost the race to double exalted triggers on an Inkmoth. Couldnt find answers.
Overall I was still happy with the decks performance. The change I am surely making for the GP is cutting to 3 Wasteland and going up to 4 Cavern. Its an extra white source and of course helps avoid all of the counters.
I can also see cutting down to 2 big Thalia, but it is such a powerhouse against delver, lands, colorless eldrazi, and sneak and show.
I would Love to test with Lodestones and or Hero of Bladehold.
I've never fully understood this. Big Thalia doesn't stop Show and Tell, and they can activate Sneak Attack during our endstep to attack the following turn. I have definitely lost games to Sneak/Show where I cast a turn 1 Big Thalia...Quote:
Originally Posted by kratos
As for maindeck Priests, I've found them pretty anemic in matchups where the ability isn't relevant by itself, but I guess it's ultimately a metagame call. Canonist has pretty much the same issue. This is one reason why I keep going back to Endless Ones, since even though they're not disruptive, they are great at shortening the clock, which I think improves your percentages similar to a tax bear by forcing your opponent to "have it" faster.
Hero is interesting as the stats and cmc are basically perfect, but my main concern as always is the WW in the casting cost, but I'm certainly interested in testing it!
I'm a lot less thrilled about Lodestone since I think taxing our own top end might be too much of a drawback. Also, I can tell you from Vintage experience that Lightning Bolt on Lodestone is a huge tempo loss; on top of that Lodestone can't swing through Delver. This makes me fearful that this will make the Grixis matchup considerably worse.
More general thoughts:
I'm also going to Vegas, and my gauntlet is the same as Phil Gallagher's gauntlet. For those who can't click, his top 4 decks are Grixis Delver, ANT, Sneak/Show, and Elves, and the other decks on his radar are Portent Miracles, D+T, "a BUG deck" (probably BUG Delver imo), Deathblade, and Dragon Stompy. This is roughly what one would conclude from the MTGO metagame, which I think is a fair assessment of how a gigantic tournament like Vegas will probably be.
As is typical in Legacy, all of those decks are going to have metagame share in the 5%-ish range. Maybe Grixis will be like 10%, maybe Portent Miracles will be 10% off hype, but I don't see any other deck being so prevalent. This is sort of why I'm always so nervous about running things like Canonist or Priest in the maindeck, since while each of those cards do hit two of the top decks on those lists, they are close to a miss versus everything else. There are obviously other matchups besides these, but they are much rarer (e.g. Reanimator, Dredge). I think the expected number of times you will play against Dredge at GP Vegas is close to zero.
But there are some obvious things I think this gauntlet suggests:
- Play the 4th Cavern. The format is becoming bluer again.
- Come prepared for equipment, and in particular, True Name. Grixis, BUG, Deathblade can all run the 3/1 in varying numbers. Bring those Disenchants and Blessed Alliances! I think it may be advisable to run a maindeck out to True Name which has other applications - i.e. something like Sword of Fire and Ice, not something like Orzhov Pontiff.
- Although... Orzhov Pontiff looks like a really good sideboard card against that gauntlet! I just hope it's castable... I might code up some simulations to see. This might be a reason to play a fourth Petal or something.
- Endbringer seems like a terrific MD flex slot option in this metagame. I think I'd be thrilled to have it play against literally all of those decks except Storm. In particular, it's another thing that is good against Show and Tell in that it's a genuine out if S+T resolves. Oblivion Sower does not look so hot.
- THC actually doesn't look so bad, I think my poor experiences in recent tournaments might just be a local metagame thing, but obviously Vegas is not going to have the same metagame as New Jersey
- This seems like the tournament to cheat on GY hate a bit. This makes a bit of sense since DRS is king of the format. I think only Dredge can really play through so much DRS.
I didnt think about that line of play, but it seems like neither have my opponents.
Ill admit that the priests are not great in several matchups, however the interaction with Displacer is nice and I feel like SnS will be something Id rather be maindeck prepared for at Vegas.
I am thinking of putting 2 Canonist in the board in place of the Thorns as they will hold the same role and will come in against the same matchups and much more like Aluren, Miracles, and Elves. I just cant find anything else to cut besides the Priests or 1 THC/Revoker I cant bring myself to cut down the numbers on those after testing.
Im again at a crossroads with finding a place for SoFI in the main, and would probably see cutting a revoker for it if I decide to play it.
The 4th Cavern has been helpful with a little more consistency of color/uncounterable threats.
I am also not sure if I should play 2 RIP and 2 Surgicals, or go with 4 Leylines. The Leylines are much better for the BR Reanimator match, however the other cards provide some flexibility in other matchups. Its a tough call. Has anyone had experience playing Leylines and found them to be better?
Leyline requires a deck that's decent at mulliganing, which this deck would rather not do. You also basically give yourself 4 dead draws if you keep a hand without it.
If you're worried about BR Reanimator, play Faerie Macabre. Surgical shouldn't be played in Chalice decks. I play 2 Containment Priest main and 3 RIP board and though I sometimes lose to a quick BR Reanimator hand I feel like I have good chances vs all other gy decks.
You could also consider Tormod's Crypt.
I just built this, and am enjoying it quite a bit.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15408&d=293779&f=LE
My decklist is pretty close, I took out 2 lodestone golems for Thalia, Heretical Cathar, quite a bit of Sneak and Show in my meta, and a Sword of War and Peace instead of F & I.
THIS! I'm going to play 3 r.i.p. and the 2 priests . i was playing 3 faerie 2 priest but more lands and less reanimator means i should be playing r.i.p.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaono